India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Dovah]

The war-effort will need mostly low-tech stuff such as infantry equipment, 'dumb' ammunition, MREs, etc. India has a vast population of electronics engineers who can graduate to semiconductor manufacturing.

But first we have to recognize that a war is looming, which we have refused to accept since the last decade. All of this works only if the private sector is ushered in, even at the cost of PSUs. They do not have the capacity or motivation to handle such an initiative. Majority of our engineers would require months of retraining to be employable in high-tech sector though, not saying it can't be done.

India not playing a role in global semiconductor manufacturing has more to do with geopolitics than lack of talent. The west decided that small countries like Costa Rica, Malta, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore, become semiconductor manufacturing counter-magnets to the Chinese. It didn't want to create another China by investing in India for semiconductors, electronics and ICT.

And we did almost nothing to persuade them. We had enough consumption of electronics in-house that we could have sustained an industry as well as innovation had we had the technology (hook or crook). Our blossoming industries got crushed because we were playing good boys for WTO against people that were breaking every rule in the book.

If the west decides that India should make semiconductors, the biggest fabs can come up even in places like Dantewada,

If the entirety of our success in this field is dependent on West's approval, then it is a lost cause, imo. They will never make the China mistake again. If high tech manufacturing is moving anywhere after this, it will be back home.

 

[Kumata]

Why do I feel like it's the "Make a sound in East, Strike in the West" stratagem in action?

The danger might very well be from Pakis and not Chinese.

I am hoping porkis are not foolish enough to fell for this chinese ploy ( chances are otherwise offcourse) .. on land BSF will be more than enough for their jihadi army...and Navy is still scratching their ships to enter karachi....

 

[Bhadra]

Lol.

Why are these cropping now oh we have been taken by surprise oh how did this happen.

Why spew nonsense here just because you didn't get to see the pictures doesn't mean that that nobody did.

By we if you mean us the public yes the military and top brass no not at all.

You think the Indian army can be deployed in 1 day multiple handles have been claiming almost a month back include one DFI user here when he said India has been moving troops and artillery towards china but it has gained no media attention.

Everyone seems to be beating indian intelligence all these years what nonsense is this we didn't have a single terrorist attack in our country in the last few years you think RA&W has been sleeping all this time.

The arms flow to naxals the recent input that caught all those explosions in car Baluchistan gaining momentum who do you think is doing all this.

What use when the enemy is at the door.

We to are at their door the army didn't magically appear they were given proper input.

Nepal is a problem that will solve itself just like Maldives pressure is already being applied.

Please talk something sensible instead of blind hatred.

The taste of the pudding is in eating and not claiming all nonsense as you are trying to push.

The pudding you served is bitter and stale.
I am raising a question. If you say Indian Army was warned in time then we / nation will hang the general no doubt. Or you be ready... where is the confusion in that? Why beat Mrindangam when I am asking to play tabla?

Being haphazard and off-balance may be a plan of your mind not any sane military mind.

Instead of answering the question do not take me to Timbaktoo....

 

[Knowitall]

The taste of the pudding is in eating and not claiming all nonsense as you are trying to push.

The pudding you served is bitter and stale.
I am raising a question. If you say Indian Army was warned in time then we / nation will hang the general no doubt. Or you be ready... where is the confusion in that? Why beat Mrindangam when I am asking to play tabla?

Being haphazard and off-balance may be a plan of your mind not any sane military mind.

Instead of answering the question do not take me to Timbaktoo....

So just more bullshit from you nothing logical.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

I am hoping porkis are not foolish enough to fell for this chinese ploy ( chances are otherwise offcourse) .. on land BSF will be more than enough for their jihadi army...and Navy is still scratching their ships to enter karachi....

If Pakistan attacks India now. Then it will be a deja vu of 71.

 

[tarunraju]

If the entirety of our success in this field is dependent on West's approval, then it is a lost cause, imo. They will never make the China mistake again. If high tech manufacturing is moving anywhere after this, it will be back home.

Yes, it's entirely dependent on the west, just as it was in China's case. The west owns the IP (intellectual property), it invents stuff, and it gave that IP to Chinese engineers with no prior experience in high-technology semiconductor, to begin manufacturing, in the 1970s. Successive generations of the Chinese education system groomed semiconductor engineers; and now they have an indigenous industry.

But it always starts with the west giving IP.

There are exactly zero examples of any country in the world developing a semiconductor manufacturing industry without western IP in its formative years.

 

[Mikesingh]

On the lighter side....

Poor conditions in the Chinese military have been highlighted in the media, with reports of low pay, bad food, poor prospects for marriage and difficulties in finding jobs after demobilisation.

Also if one wants to resign from the Chinese defence forces due to whatever reason, the poor sod is penalized thus:

Faces a total of eight penalties that include a two-year ban on foreign travel; ban on traveling within China on planes, long-distance trains or buses; buying real estate; getting loans or insurance; opening a business; and enrolling or studying in college or secondary school. In addition he will not be permitted to get a government job for life, even as a temporary worker. And that includes any government enterprises in a country where a large chunk of industry is state-run.

There will also be a financial cost: a $4,000 fine plus the reimbursement to the military of $3,750 for costs incurred during his short time as a soldier. His actions and punishments will be "published to the society via networks, television, newspapers and social media."

So once a Chinese is in the forces, he is between the devil and the deep blue sea! Serving is a pain and leaving is pain plus!! Putting all this together, at a fall-in:

Chinese officer: Hows the Josh?
PLA boobies: Bloody low sir!!

 

[Blue Water Navy]

On the lighter side....

Poor conditions in the Chinese military have been highlighted in the media, with reports of low pay, bad food, poor prospects for marriage and difficulties in finding jobs after demobilisation.

Also if one wants to resign from the Chinese defence forces due to whatever reason, the poor sod is penalized thus:

Faces a total of eight penalties that include a two-year ban on foreign travel; ban on traveling within China on planes, long-distance trains or buses; buying real estate; getting loans or insurance; opening a business; and enrolling or studying in college or secondary school. In addition he will not be permitted to get a government job for life, even as a temporary worker. And that includes any government enterprises in a country where a large chunk of industry is state-run.

There will also be a financial cost: a $4,000 fine plus the reimbursement to the military of $3,750 for costs incurred during his short time as a soldier. His actions and punishments will be "published to the society via networks, television, newspapers and social media."

So once a Chinese is in the forces, he is between the devil and the deep blue sea! Putting all this together, at a fall-in:

Chinese officer: Hows the Josh?
PLA boobies: Bloody low sir!!

"poor prospects for marriage "

 

[Bhadra]

Under the current dispensation, the Army does not need orders from a bureaucrat to pull the trigger on the LoC or choose how to respond to ceasefire violations on the Western border. Local commanders are at liberty to deal with the situation.

ITBP carries empty guns(mag removed) when they patrol along the perceived LAC. Do they enjoy the same liberty/powers that the Army or even the BSF enjoys on the Western border?

No. How should ITBP deal with PLA transgressions and bullying? Can they open fire at PLA when they are attacked and mauled by PLA who enjoy a numerical advantage? What should ITBP personnel do when they are surrounded by PLA men wielding clubs? Can they open fire?

You talk of intelligence failure. What happened at Handwara that cost us a Col, a Major and three other security personnel? Intel failure? SOP failure? Will you be as scathing?

I don't want to turn this thread into a blue-on-blue. Please understand the ITBP has the same master the Army does, except that they are treated more disdainfully than the Army.

Will try my best to desist from responding to any more flamebaits.

You mean to say ITBP patrols the LAC with danda (a rifle without magazine is a danda) on the orders of Modi...... Ha Ha Ha....

ITBP or Indian Army 0 we are the same people and same boys. I am only trying to tell you what makes the difference . Waht makes the soldiers out of boys and who turns them into Dandamasters in givernment uniform...

ITBP ---- one of the finest force of India has been turned into Dandamasters... what a tragedy...

I quoted your words only ... there is nothing flame baiting in that. OK...

 

[Sanglamorre]

I am hoping porkis are not foolish enough to fell for this chinese ploy ( chances are otherwise offcourse) .. on land BSF will be more than enough for their jihadi army...and Navy is still scratching their ships to enter karachi....

They might be counting on the fact that India will have to also concentrate on China front.

I don't even think they want to actually get some good results. Pakis want some token land, some headlines they did this, did that and the bad press that will assail Modi govt. Pakis want a "win", no matter how token it is. Chinese want to make an example and...since it's the only way they've won, ever, repeat that as some feat to impress.

 

[Bhadra]

On the lighter side....

Poor conditions in the Chinese military have been highlighted in the media, with reports of low pay, bad food, poor prospects for marriage and difficulties in finding jobs after demobilisation.

Also if one wants to resign from the Chinese defence forces due to whatever reason, the poor sod is penalized thus:

Faces a total of eight penalties that include a two-year ban on foreign travel; ban on traveling within China on planes, long-distance trains or buses; buying real estate; getting loans or insurance; opening a business; and enrolling or studying in college or secondary school. In addition he will not be permitted to get a government job for life, even as a temporary worker. And that includes any government enterprises in a country where a large chunk of industry is state-run.

There will also be a financial cost: a $4,000 fine plus the reimbursement to the military of $3,750 for costs incurred during his short time as a soldier. His actions and punishments will be "published to the society via networks, television, newspapers and social media."

So once a Chinese is in the forces, he is between the devil and the deep blue sea! Serving is a pain and leaving is pain plus!! Putting all this together, at a fall-in:

Chinese officer: Hows the Josh?
PLA boobies: Bloody low sir!!

I believe that is bunkum...
PLA enjoys a very high status in Chinese society and system and controls even the CCP.... They are well looked after ...

Their biggest problem is "One child" syndrome where in the children are brought up as a pampered lot who is a sissy and not easily amenable to hardships.

 

[another_armchair]

You mean to say ITBP patrols the LAC with danda (a rifle without magazine is a danda) on the orders of Modi...... Ha Ha Ha....

ITBP or Indian Army 0 we are the same people and same boys. I am only trying to tell you what makes the difference . Waht makes the soldiers out of boys and who turns them into Dandamasters in givernment uniform...

ITBP ---- one of the finest force of India has been turned into Dandamasters... what a tragedy...

I quoted your words only ... there is nothing flame baiting in that. OK...

Army found itself in a similar(LAC) like situation in Dokalam where they went unarmed and there was pushing and jostling with PLA.

Big mighty army reduced to dandamasters in military uniform.. what a tragedy. ... as per your own words.
Similar situation, same reaction. What then?

 

[ladder]

You think the Indian army can be deployed in 1 day multiple handles have been claiming almost a month back include one DFI user here when he said India has been moving troops and artillery towards china but it has gained no media attention

Just adding, military (army) trains started before shramik special trains in this lockdown period.

 

[Arihant]

Just adding, military (army) trains started before shramik special trains in this lockdown period.

Trains for military were not stopped any time. They were following proper procedures for the movements.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

They might be counting on the fact that India will have to also concentrate on China front.

I don't even think they want to actually get some good results. Pakis want some token land, some headlines they did this, did that and the bad press that will assail Modi govt. Pakis want a "win", no matter how token it is. Chinese want to make an example and...since it's the only way they've won, ever, repeat that as some feat to impress.

The thing is our NSA and Modiji is well aware of that.

And Pak shall do something when things escalate between Chinis and India. Which I highly doubt, Chinis are propaganda warriors not real ones.

 

[Bhadra]

Yeah, a USSR style industrialization drive, specially in UP, Bihar (excess workforce) and Tamil Nadu (established infrastructure). But if the government thinks that it can beat the low-tech manufacturing curve to jump straight into high-tech manufacturing, then it is wrong. The Chinese were building cheap toys for decades before they graduated to making microprocessors.

I am done with slogans and sloganeering though, what happened to Make-In-India? Every move that changes the status quo will be checked by the bureaucratic monolith and will be mired in red-tape.

If a defence manufacturing industry does not emerge from this crisis, then I have lost all hope in our political and administrative framework. Neccessity is the mother of corruption, when it comes to them.

It is futile talking of constructing watershed management system at the time of cloud burst.

What you are actually saying is that our security management system in the country so far has been a failure. Instaeding of tackling the basic cause you want to clutch the straw.
All Defense Industrial Complexes systems are just not going to work till the time you have the mamoth OFB and DPSUs - who control MoD being part of it, Orders unto themselves, set the conditions, quantity and quality of supply and assiduously block all competitions. Those who have a monopolistic assured captive client in the form of Defence Forces will do all and everything to frustrate any Modi any time... "kadi Ninda ya Parrikar to cheeja Hi kya hai "...

 

[Dovah]

It is futile talking of constructing watershed management system at the time of cloud burst.

This is like talking about getting an umbrella, when it starts to drizzle.

What you are actually saying is that our security management system in the country so far has been a failure. Instaeding of tackling the basic cause you want to clutch the straw.

Didn't say that, don't put words in my mouth. I will say it is sub-optimal, not a failure.

All Defense Industrial Complexes systems are just not going to work till the time you have the mamoth OFB and DPSUs - who control MoD being part of it,

Agree.

Orders unto themselves, set the conditions, quantity and quality of supply and assiduously block all competitions. Those who have a monopolistic assured captive client in the form of Defence Forces will do all and everything to frustrate any Modi any time... "kadi Ninda ya Parrikar to cheeja Hi kya hai "...

Agreed. But I do not think it is political at all. All bureaucracies are like that.

 

[Bhadra]

Since yesterday we have been hearing of "Specialized Troops" that have been brought in the Ladakh theatre who are experts and know that area well.

Those who know things understand what is being referred to. If that is true, it means the situation indeed is serious.

But the "Specialist troops" are meant for all sectors. Why concentrate them in Ladakh only?

I hope the military commander will keep all options open and use them effectively elsewhere also especially in carrying out offensive actions.

Acclemetised High Altitude reserves have always been Indian Military leaders Achilles heels. Even ITBP does not have their Ladakh reserves who are sitting in Delhi.....

No lessons seem to have been laeant from Kargil and Doklam.... Now keep waiting for 21 days when Chinese are sitting on your head... Burrrrrh...

 

[Vishal reddy]

Can anyone help me in understanding whether finger 4 is India's territory or not!!

 

[Bhadra]

Deleted....