India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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ARVION

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China wants us to make the first move and I think we should. No other way to stop their creeping invasion. Saturate those narrow valley's where they have amassed in numbers, with artillery fire. They are sitting ducks. They thought that India would not retaliate and would just allow them to walk in with their pushing and shoving. Thats why they have come in with overwhelming numbers. It is those very numbers that will be their Achilles heel if things go hot.
May be their plan is to make our move first they would not send that many troops on the front and then they would attack our troops at right time when we are exposed or they could be thinking that they would allow us to stretch ourselves and reduce our supply so we could be easy target remember chinis are planning this for a long time and we need to be carefully plan our next move
 

cereal killer

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But the valley could be used as a dual sword for both chini and paks as we may get a open road to gilgit and chinese train basin and like siachen could open many more ways to exacts the force on the pakis and could one day be used to reach the Afghan border and on the lighter note we could also free K2 which irkes me despite being India highest point still in the pakis hand
Theoretically it can be but we need to be realistic here.
In current scenario, India shares a boundary with Shagsham valley by occupying the Siachen glacier and its tributaries. The feasible entry points would have to the Passess or openings in the Karakoram divide.
This include passess upon Indira ridge. crossing these very tough pass would take us onto the Urdok+Staghar glaciers which meets the Shagsham valley.
All that taking into account Indian troops have to counter heavy presence of Pak Military on western side of Saltoro Range. Also area is quite easily accessible from Xinjiang. If attempted this will be the boldest move ever taken by any military in the history of mountain warfare. Odds are massively against us. In my view without having any control of GB acquisition of Shaksgam valley is next to impossible.
 

scatterStorm

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both uri and NE attack were ambushes. It could have happened to anybody.

If you remember in tiger hill, 8 Sikh was not able to complete mission on its own. It required help from 2 Naga and 18 Grenadiers. Although 8 Sikh did not initially have arty support and they also didn’t have proper cold weather gear required for those heights, but that’s true for most of the soldiers during kargil.
I feel pain when I see our troop not in proper gear to this day. Its now that one of our mjr. developed full body heavy bulletproof vest and a helmet that can take a AK47 round at 10m.
 

Bhadra

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Two things have changed in the past two days. India updated its RoE, and OSINTwallahs suggest PLA have crossed F4 ridge-line at Pangong Tso (in a position to cause landslides onto Indian positions, or snipe them). Kuch toh hoga.
Just blast those off using Spike -LR ( if they have LR versions) or Apaches..
There many other options too.
 

here2where

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I feel that army believes these would be easy pickings if war breaks out????

or massive level of incompetence from ITBP and Home ministry
i read somewhere chinks build pillboxes and fortifications into the sides right at f4.
mil intel failure or brain fade, call what you want.... but it will hurt...
 

AmitG

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Just blast those off using Spike -LR ( if they have LR versions) or Apaches..
There many other options too.
The Chinese occupation and fortifications at finger 4 are a problem only if India decides not to do something about it. Look at the narrow terrain again. Nicely boxed in for Chinki fried chicken. There is a reason that the IA or most professional armies do not bunch up their forces.
 

AmitG

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I feel pain when I see our troop not in proper gear to this day. Its now that one of our mjr. developed full body heavy bulletproof vest and a helmet that can take a AK47 round at 10m.
The F-INSAS program should never have been cancelled. Was it Gen V.K Singh who did that? Not trolling, just a question. I could be wrong.
 

A chauhan

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Man what is this video?:eek1:
That's full BC and an insult.
The best part is, India is lucky to have Modi as our PM at this crucial time. So we can feel relaxed and trust on him. Suppose, if RAGA was our PM at this time! I am even afraid to imagine consequences.
Actually this is good it happens because we now actually know the real firepower of India and most importantly the will power. Chinese are begging for the talk everyday. Global times started printing 15 articles on the same topic and begging not to attack the day after Galwan episode. But I am sad for lossing our 20 brave hearts.
It is Modi who gave free hand to the IA, as a result IA is now killing at least twice the number of terrorists/PA soldiers/ PLA Soldiers.

Under Modi IA is in its deadliest form.

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
Part 2 and conclusion of previous post

How China sees itself

  • China is not a Communist country: It is a country ruled by a communist party, that's the extent of its communism. In some ways it is like Post-Soviet republics of the USSR with a hyper-capitalist, robber baron, crony capitalist oligarchy.
  • It is a Han nation. All other minorities get to wear regional costumes like dressed up monkeys when the attend a few congresses in Beijing, but they are second class. This is seen in their repression of Tibetans and Uyghurs. Partly, they want to cilvilise (or make Han) these barbarians practicing strange religions, and stuck in the past.
  • China is a modern civilised country (almost western). Think Meiji restoration Japan, think Singapore. See the CCP functionaries wearing western suits, with CCP badges.
  • China is on its way to restoring its place as the centre of the world. The USA is an obstacle it will need to overcome for this.
  • The CCP has the mandate of heaven. All Chinese emperors needed to have this, otherwise someone with the mandate would usurp their place. CCP is the current dynasty and Xi is the current emperor (for life). Everything becomes a lot clearer when China is seen in its imperial tradition.
  • China is orderly and stable. At the moment. The typical condition of China over the past 200 years has been of disorder. The Taiping rebellion, civil war, cultural revolution, etc. So finally the CCP has brought order. Order is way more important than "freedom". Freedom is something they know from Hollywood, not really for China but maybe its worth visiting Disneyworld to see what it's like.
  • China is corrupt to the core and the CCP is the heart of this corruption. This is something most people find terrible and all the protests and opposition are inevitably protests against corrupt petty functionaries. But to get rid of corruption, you have to get rid of the CCP and if you get rid of the CCP, China wouldn't function. At the moment corruption is not as ostentatious as before. People are keeping their heads down because Xi was collecting heads to stabilise his rule. Since everyone is corrupt, everyone was afraid of his anti-corruption drive.
  • China is a merchant empire. The CCP to sustain its corruption needs heavy trade. If the size of the pie shrinks, there will be infighting. Which will weaken its hold.
  • CCP has two enemies The Chinese People and the USA. The fall of the USSR has been the biggest nightmare of the CCP, and both these factors are thought to have played a role. The CCP spends a very substantial amount on internal security, according to some accounts as much as on external security.
  • China has 3 classes: Peasants (the majority, who nowadays are usually migrant workers); the nouveau riche and the rulers CCP. All three are afraid of each other. The newly rich are happy, obedient and scared to lose what they have, send their children to study abroad and hope to migrate to USA; the worker/peasants are the ones who cause disturbances and are in terrible shape. The rulers are insanely rich, insanely corrupt and insanely paranoid, everyone has at least 2 different passports for their children, apart from the chinese one.

What is China doing in Ladakh?

Based on what I have written so far I think this is a mission to subdue the periphery. The army is on an expedition to pacify the frontier and punish the uppity kingdom on the periphery, India. Show them who's the boss and then return to the heartland.

This is also about warning India not to join an alliance with the USA. For us, this might sound ridiculous but when you read how the Chinese see us, it makes perfect sense that we will not ally ourselves with the USA after receiving this warning. Ideas like humiliation being bad for relations are alien to them (humility is a virtue, they are simply showing India its place). That we might have self-respect or might actually care about strategic autonomy or be protecting our own interests are simply incomprehensible and completely out of sync with how they see us.

Several people have tried to think of the current situation in terms of military strategy. That makes absolutely no sense. It is almost certainly not about protecting the Aksai Chin highway. Firstly the PLA is not too bright in terms of military tactics, for example having 200 trucks inside a gorge seems foolish even to a civilian like me. Secondly, the empire never expects trouble or attack inside its borders. I think maybe one or two junior officers in the PLA might entertain the thought of an Indian armored attack and prepare a report on that but I think that's inconceivable for the majority. Also practically, China has enough heavy lift capability and construction skills to have a replacement highway running very quickly.

For those suggesting more fantastic ideas like a shortcut to PoK over the Karakoram pass. The Karakoram Pass is the one point on the boundary that there is no conflict about. Secondly, the Karakoram Highway has nothing to do with the Karakoram Pass. The geography of the area makes it impossible to build a road. Thirdly even the KKH is more or less a gesture for Pakistan, nothing seriously economic about it. it is far away from the economic and population heartland of China. Pakistan is a model tributary state, so it is rewarded with favors like the CPEC. From at least 2013, I have been telling anyone who would listen that it's a big joke. Some Chinese companies will get to build stuff and make a lot of money, which will be shared through the hierarchy but trade with Pakistan over the KKH makes utterly, absolutely no sense.

The current conflict is for the average Chinese, out there in Timbuktu. Tibet is already like Antarctica inhabited by the savages for the majority of them. And then there is some fight with India, a country they have heard of. It's quite an exotic place, people dance all the time, they've seen Bollywood movies. That's why I think the idea of domestic messaging doesn't quite fly. Hong Kong is easy to crush, also sends out a message about the supremacy of the CCP and the futility of democracy protests, but Tibet, as far away as it can get? With a third rate country like India? They have a vague idea that it's full of poor people who dance but is there really glory in defeating their army? That's only to be expected surely. This has also created a headache for the CCP, did high-tech Han warriors actually get slaughtered by dirty Red Turbans? [This is currently a very popular question on Chinese social media, which is being asked indirectly in many different ways].


Lessons for India
  • Conflict with China is inevitable. So we must make sure we find the right time and place for it. It will not be a total war. Total war is too unpredictable and might cut into the CCPs earnings.
  • Localised conflict is feasible and manageable Tibet is not worth much to the CCP. Of course a dynasty never allows its size to be reduced, but if Lhasa or Amdo or any city in Tibet or Xinjiang were destroyed, the CCP wouldn't even blink. But the CCP will at no costs see even the smallest threat to the heartland (south-west China). So escalation won't proceed beyond a certain step on the ladder
  • Any war will be about temporary deterrence and not permanent victory. When we give them a bloody nose, they'll leave us alone for 30 years. But then we'll have to fight them again
  • Diplomacy is about delay and obfuscation, not resolution. Talking helps pass the time until its time for military conflict. Any promises aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. A loophole will be found as and when necessary.
  • It's not Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) who's relevant to Chinese military strategy but Weiqi. I find it a bit ridiculous because The Art of War is quite elliptical and can be interpreted as one wishes. I haven't read it myself and I'm convinced most people who quote it haven't either. What Chinese Generals were also mesmerised by was the Gulf War 1. That and RMA have very much shaped their understanding of how the next war (with USA) will be fought.
  • They will be hopeless at mountain warfare From everything I read, their strategy seems to be one of overwhelming the enemy. Send 2000 soldiers, 200 tanks, 500 trucks and 20 bulldozers to scare 200 enemy soldiers. This strategy might work on Tiananmen Square (as it indeed did) but not in the mountains. I don't know anything about weapons systems but I have a suspicion networked warfare is not really the best way to fight in the mountains. Massed forces are also probably not the best idea in Ladakh (perhaps with the exception of Depsang)
  • This might make me sound like a Pakistani, but the Chinese have nothing to even remotely match the Indian soldier's spirit. I just tried to think of how many of my Chinese acquaintances might be willing to die for their country and I honestly can't think of a single one. In case of India obviously I have family, friends, neighbors, one doesn't need more than 5 seconds to think of 10 people. The Chinese spirit comes from Han superiority and fear of their officers, especially the political officers. This means they are ripe for desertion, and if there are non-Han soldiers they can probably be used to create disorder within their armies. The han superiority also makes them afraid of barbarians. They are always scared by people with heavy beards and scary mustaches.
  • their lack of democracy means they are very brittle against information warfare. I had posted earlier how Chinese social media was relying on the messaging of the new Baba Banaras twitter account. All their news came from Indian media. If we can spread some fake videos or pics of mutilated Chinese soldiers, that will not enrage but scare them. It will perfectly fit their image of savage barbarians and the modern Chinese population is all up for CGI warfare but not to see skulls crushed with rocks.
  • The planning is done by Generals, approved by Beijing, and then flows down to the soldiers. This system lacks innovation and probably won't be very flexible on the ground. Though it may very well lead to brilliant strategy in the case of experienced generals, the tactics will probably be shoddy and predictable.
  • We should try to understand them and how they see us and take advantage of it. We must also be willing to adapt to their working style, which might mean giving up on values like honour and truth. We always feel betrayed by them because they act differently to our expectations. When we understand their worldview, we will be the ones taking advantage of them.
  • What CCP does not want is a widespread front and protracted warfare. Traditionally such pacification exercises (Ladakh, but also Xinjiang and Tibet) were conducted in order to free the empire for more important work (like confronting the USA). We will know we have won this round when General Zhao is recalled to Beijing.
Baba Banaras (no matter who he is) made lots of enemies shit in their pants since the last year. 😁

For hundreds of years, we taught Chinese so much Buddhism, meditation, about reality and truth and knowledge.

Saari mehnat barbad bc. Saare nakli log ban gaye.
You know what is it that repulses the most. When anyone tries to pretend what they are not. All Chinese are like that, fake, they pretend to be what they are not.
Sometime in the Indian History Buddhists used to reveal hideouts and plans of Hindus to foreign rulers rather than fighting with them, which later forced Hindus to reconvert them back to Hinduism.

China has adopted the same Buddhism. Plus being a center of Communism who never care for religious and family values Chinese people are highly self-centered having fake pride. There shouldn't be any surprise if Chinki soldiers run away from the battlefield.
 

scatterStorm

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The F-INSAS program should never have been cancelled. Was it Gen V.K Singh who did that? Not trolling, just a question. I could be wrong.
I have no idea about it. F-INSAS was scrapped, that I know. V.K singh involved, maybe the politico cadre can reply on this.
 

12arya

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We may have a 4.5 year old ‘reporter’ gone rogue. Son goes and tattles what he hears Mama and Papa discuss with the Didis in the house. Now considering invoking the Official Secrets Act against the little fellow :) Khabri Number 1. Breaking news which he isn’t supposed to know.





Yeh kiski bat kar raha he?
when I first read this, without opening the link, I immediately thought it was abt rahul kanwal 😀
 

AmitG

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I have no idea about it. F-INSAS was scrapped, that I know. V.K singh involved, maybe the politico cadre can reply on this.
Who ever did it , it was a pretty short sighted thing to do. If I remember correctly the cost was hardly 3.5k - 4K crore.
 

doreamon

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Surface-To-Air Defense System Deployed along LAC

[/QUOTE]

The reporter said qrsam deployed . How is that possible .
 
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