India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[scatterStorm]

I still think Shaksgam Valley could be a viable option but could result in a huge sacrifice for us but could blow chini dreams of OBOR initiative only if our artillery range can reach the China National Highway 314 but again sacrifice coul be in thousand just to hold the valley could be even more than siachen

Going for the aerial way (IAF way) is much better.

 

[AmitG]

Looks like we are headed towards a limited war. I dont think there is any chance of the Chinese vacating fingers 4-8. No way can the govt back down now. It will be political suicide for Modi. He already goofed up with his statement the other day and the opposition will have a field day if things are allowed to stand as they are. We should be more concerned about the Depsang plains. Not much news coming from there or from Arunachal. We cannot defend every inch. Have to be proactive and cross the border and occupy Chinese territory and then negotiate to revert to the status quo as in before May 5.

 

[utubekhiladi]

India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.

India has deployed its specialised high altitude warfare forces along the 3,488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) to repel any transgression by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in either western, middle or eastern sectors.

India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[AmitG]

India and China to hold Corps Commander-level meeting at Moldo on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control opposite Chushul to discuss the ongoing dispute in Ladakh: Indian Army Sources

Feels like a formality. Expecting fireworks soon

Nothing is going to come out of it. Neither India or China can back down. Looks like a conflict looms.

 

[ARVION]

Going for the areal way (IAF way) is much better.

But the valley could be used as a dual sword for both chini and paks as we may get a open road to gilgit and chinese train basin and like siachen could open many more ways to exacts the force on the pakis and could one day be used to reach the Afghan border and on the lighter note we could also free K2 which irkes me despite being India highest point still in the pakis hand

 

[SanjeevM]

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
Part 2 and conclusion of previous post

How China sees itself

• China is not a Communist country: It is a country ruled by a communist party, that's the extent of its communism. In some ways it is like Post-Soviet republics of the USSR with a hyper-capitalist, robber baron, crony capitalist oligarchy.
• It is a Han nation. All other minorities get to wear regional costumes like dressed up monkeys when the attend a few congresses in Beijing, but they are second class. This is seen in their repression of Tibetans and Uyghurs. Partly, they want to cilvilise (or make Han) these barbarians practicing strange religions, and stuck in the past.
• China is a modern civilised country (almost western). Think Meiji restoration Japan, think Singapore. See the CCP functionaries wearing western suits, with CCP badges.
• China is on its way to restoring its place as the centre of the world. The USA is an obstacle it will need to overcome for this.
• The CCP has the mandate of heaven. All Chinese emperors needed to have this, otherwise someone with the mandate would usurp their place. CCP is the current dynasty and Xi is the current emperor (for life). Everything becomes a lot clearer when China is seen in its imperial tradition.
• China is orderly and stable. At the moment. The typical condition of China over the past 200 years has been of disorder. The Taiping rebellion, civil war, cultural revolution, etc. So finally the CCP has brought order. Order is way more important than "freedom". Freedom is something they know from Hollywood, not really for China but maybe its worth visiting Disneyworld to see what it's like.
• China is corrupt to the core and the CCP is the heart of this corruption. This is something most people find terrible and all the protests and opposition are inevitably protests against corrupt petty functionaries. But to get rid of corruption, you have to get rid of the CCP and if you get rid of the CCP, China wouldn't function. At the moment corruption is not as ostentatious as before. People are keeping their heads down because Xi was collecting heads to stabilise his rule. Since everyone is corrupt, everyone was afraid of his anti-corruption drive.
• China is a merchant empire. The CCP to sustain its corruption needs heavy trade. If the size of the pie shrinks, there will be infighting. Which will weaken its hold.
• CCP has two enemies The Chinese People and the USA. The fall of the USSR has been the biggest nightmare of the CCP, and both these factors are thought to have played a role. The CCP spends a very substantial amount on internal security, according to some accounts as much as on external security.
• China has 3 classes: Peasants (the majority, who nowadays are usually migrant workers); the nouveau riche and the rulers CCP. All three are afraid of each other. The newly rich are happy, obedient and scared to lose what they have, send their children to study abroad and hope to migrate to USA; the worker/peasants are the ones who cause disturbances and are in terrible shape. The rulers are insanely rich, insanely corrupt and insanely paranoid, everyone has at least 2 different passports for their children, apart from the chinese one.

What is China doing in Ladakh?

Based on what I have written so far I think this is a mission to subdue the periphery. The army is on an expedition to pacify the frontier and punish the uppity kingdom on the periphery, India. Show them who's the boss and then return to the heartland.

This is also about warning India not to join an alliance with the USA. For us, this might sound ridiculous but when you read how the Chinese see us, it makes perfect sense that we will not ally ourselves with the USA after receiving this warning. Ideas like humiliation being bad for relations are alien to them (humility is a virtue, they are simply showing India its place). That we might have self-respect or might actually care about strategic autonomy or be protecting our own interests are simply incomprehensible and completely out of sync with how they see us.

Several people have tried to think of the current situation in terms of military strategy. That makes absolutely no sense. It is almost certainly not about protecting the Aksai Chin highway. Firstly the PLA is not too bright in terms of military tactics, for example having 200 trucks inside a gorge seems foolish even to a civilian like me. Secondly, the empire never expects trouble or attack inside its borders. I think maybe one or two junior officers in the PLA might entertain the thought of an Indian armored attack and prepare a report on that but I think that's inconceivable for the majority. Also practically, China has enough heavy lift capability and construction skills to have a replacement highway running very quickly.

For those suggesting more fantastic ideas like a shortcut to PoK over the Karakoram pass. The Karakoram Pass is the one point on the boundary that there is no conflict about. Secondly, the Karakoram Highway has nothing to do with the Karakoram Pass. The geography of the area makes it impossible to build a road. Thirdly even the KKH is more or less a gesture for Pakistan, nothing seriously economic about it. it is far away from the economic and population heartland of China. Pakistan is a model tributary state, so it is rewarded with favors like the CPEC. From at least 2013, I have been telling anyone who would listen that it's a big joke. Some Chinese companies will get to build stuff and make a lot of money, which will be shared through the hierarchy but trade with Pakistan over the KKH makes utterly, absolutely no sense.

The current conflict is for the average Chinese, out there in Timbuktu. Tibet is already like Antarctica inhabited by the savages for the majority of them. And then there is some fight with India, a country they have heard of. It's quite an exotic place, people dance all the time, they've seen Bollywood movies. That's why I think the idea of domestic messaging doesn't quite fly. Hong Kong is easy to crush, also sends out a message about the supremacy of the CCP and the futility of democracy protests, but Tibet, as far away as it can get? With a third rate country like India? They have a vague idea that it's full of poor people who dance but is there really glory in defeating their army? That's only to be expected surely. This has also created a headache for the CCP, did high-tech Han warriors actually get slaughtered by dirty Red Turbans? [This is currently a very popular question on Chinese social media, which is being asked indirectly in many different ways].


Lessons for India

• Conflict with China is inevitable. So we must make sure we find the right time and place for it. It will not be a total war. Total war is too unpredictable and might cut into the CCPs earnings.
• Localised conflict is feasible and manageable Tibet is not worth much to the CCP. Of course a dynasty never allows its size to be reduced, but if Lhasa or Amdo or any city in Tibet or Xinjiang were destroyed, the CCP wouldn't even blink. But the CCP will at no costs see even the smallest threat to the heartland (south-west China). So escalation won't proceed beyond a certain step on the ladder
• Any war will be about temporary deterrence and not permanent victory. When we give them a bloody nose, they'll leave us alone for 30 years. But then we'll have to fight them again
• Diplomacy is about delay and obfuscation, not resolution. Talking helps pass the time until its time for military conflict. Any promises aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. A loophole will be found as and when necessary.
• It's not Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) who's relevant to Chinese military strategy but Weiqi. I find it a bit ridiculous because The Art of War is quite elliptical and can be interpreted as one wishes. I haven't read it myself and I'm convinced most people who quote it haven't either. What Chinese Generals were also mesmerised by was the Gulf War 1. That and RMA have very much shaped their understanding of how the next war (with USA) will be fought.
• They will be hopeless at mountain warfare From everything I read, their strategy seems to be one of overwhelming the enemy. Send 2000 soldiers, 200 tanks, 500 trucks and 20 bulldozers to scare 200 enemy soldiers. This strategy might work on Tiananmen Square (as it indeed did) but not in the mountains. I don't know anything about weapons systems but I have a suspicion networked warfare is not really the best way to fight in the mountains. Massed forces are also probably not the best idea in Ladakh (perhaps with the exception of Depsang)
• This might make me sound like a Pakistani, but the Chinese have nothing to even remotely match the Indian soldier's spirit. I just tried to think of how many of my Chinese acquaintances might be willing to die for their country and I honestly can't think of a single one. In case of India obviously I have family, friends, neighbors, one doesn't need more than 5 seconds to think of 10 people. The Chinese spirit comes from Han superiority and fear of their officers, especially the political officers. This means they are ripe for desertion, and if there are non-Han soldiers they can probably be used to create disorder within their armies. The han superiority also makes them afraid of barbarians. They are always scared by people with heavy beards and scary mustaches.
• their lack of democracy means they are very brittle against information warfare. I had posted earlier how Chinese social media was relying on the messaging of the new Baba Banaras twitter account. All their news came from Indian media. If we can spread some fake videos or pics of mutilated Chinese soldiers, that will not enrage but scare them. It will perfectly fit their image of savage barbarians and the modern Chinese population is all up for CGI warfare but not to see skulls crushed with rocks.
• The planning is done by Generals, approved by Beijing, and then flows down to the soldiers. This system lacks innovation and probably won't be very flexible on the ground. Though it may very well lead to brilliant strategy in the case of experienced generals, the tactics will probably be shoddy and predictable.
• We should try to understand them and how they see us and take advantage of it. We must also be willing to adapt to their working style, which might mean giving up on values like honour and truth. We always feel betrayed by them because they act differently to our expectations. When we understand their worldview, we will be the ones taking advantage of them.
• What CCP does not want is a widespread front and protracted warfare. Traditionally such pacification exercises (Ladakh, but also Xinjiang and Tibet) were conducted in order to free the empire for more important work (like confronting the USA). We will know we have won this round when General Zhao is recalled to Beijing.

I got a query. Can this be posted on newscomworld.com?

 

[tarunraju]

Finally Piddhav grew a babycorn between his legs.

 

[mahesh]

View attachment 50908


Chinese J-20 found on Russian borders: "A 5th generation fighter was sent as a scout"

In connection with recent events, namely the conclusion of a possible contract between Russia and India for the supply of Russian T-14 Armata , a small provocative trick was carried out by China towards the Russian Federation. I suppose you know that Russia and China are one of the successful partnerships, but the muscle game is also present here.

According to a military acquaintance : Near the Russian borders, a fifth-generation Chinese fighter J-20 was found, on radars a target was displayed that moved too fast parallel to the border. He did not respond to the signals transmitted by radio; in the near future it was planned to start intercepting at the expense of the existing aircraft, but subsequently the fighter changed its trajectory.

This made it possible to cancel the interception, from assumptions - a Chinese combat aircraft made a short flight near the borders of the Russian Federation in order to demonstrate something to the military apparatus of our state with this gesture.

The only strange thing is that a brand new fifth-generation fighter was sent as a scout, by the way, his stealth technologies could not be saved from Russian radars, but I believe that no one did it.

At the moment, there is still a military confrontation between India and China, for this reason, the Chinese state does not want to sign an agreement on the supply of T-14, since this equipment will greatly affect the combat aspect of the Indian state.

But this agreement is only at the verbal stage, no one stutters its formal signing, since Armata has not yet entered the armed forces of the Russian Federation, let alone the export of this military equipment.

Don't know how authentic this news us if it true then its going to be a good for India, may be that's why Russia somewhat supporting India this time

how would a radar can determine an unknown target as J-20 only if it was previously confirmed.

 

[scatterStorm]

Dumb Question 2

Since the Chinese have now pillboxes over the ridge of F4. If they start attempting to move in to F3, can we blow up the upper ridge to form a man made landslide essentially blocking there incoming movements and slow them down?

Update to question
How about sequentially doing this for F5, F6, F7 and F8?

 

[Neil]

Haha all are good.I was commenting on the best and normal ones

But bihar regtt performed brilliantly.

Lets not divide the army based on some dumb martial race bs policy of the brits. (I know that wasn't your intention)

But each regiment is dependent upon others. Marathas cannot fight without Sikhs, Sikhs cannot fight without Biharis and so on. That's what makes IA a deadly coherent unit.

Sure, there are some hot headed regtt and some cool headed regtt and that's what balances out each others, kinda like our own family at home.

And yes, each regtt in Indian army is the very best.

 

[dumdumdum]

Question : What's the big deal about firing the first bullet. Suppose India fires the first bullet & Chinese retaliate, who is going to stop India from claiming that Chinese fired the first bullet?
Or a more likely scenario
If Chinese fire the first bullet & go out with propaganda that India fired the first bullet?

 

[scatterStorm]

But the valley could be used as a dual sword for both chini and paks as we may get a open road to gilgit and chinese train basin and like siachen could open many more ways to exacts the force on the pakis and could one day be used to reach the Afghan border and on the lighter note we could also free K2 which irkes me despite being India highest point still in the pakis hand

Holding troops is a serious disadvantage, because now its Two front war. If it would've been only Chinese we have to fight for, then could've been a solution. But that's my opinion, no expert here, IA knows best.

 

[Bhadra]

There you go again. Asking for sources. Bro, I’m not going to quote and unquote for people like you again and again. No. I said as per arguments/debatable topics it is not except. YOU Show me a source that says it is rcc.

I did not say anything. I just asked. Whatever wa there to say you sid that. I do not know anything.

Use your head. We can build it on our side as well. Stop talking like a child. If you’re trying to sound smart, you’re falling short. Build it on top it seems. Pathetic.

OK. Chalega.

Not commence in the face of the enemy? They’ve been building their structures while facing us. And we completed the roads and bridges while facing them. You think war is something that everyone is pre prepared for?

I asked what do they do when there is no war ? Fiddle with their stick.

what do you even mean by the army will sit aside? Sorry mate, you really sound super childish.

I simply asked if airforce has to do that what will Army do. Being childish is no crime.

Guys in the forum. Am I the only one who thinks this guy sounds childish? Just look at his question. Lol.

Straw in the hands of drowsing man. Do not look for company.

I meant air strikes will do the job DUDE. IN A WAR SCENARIO. Did I say the army will be sitting the war out? War is when all three services are involved. THIS IS THE DUMBEST REPlY I HAVE EVER WRITTEN.

But i would still not call you dumb. I think you are using your brain and eforts in wrong directions.

how did you even become a moderator man. That was literally the dumbest comeback I’ve ever read.you just wrote that entire post for the sake of a comeback.

Well, I am not. I do not like epithets nor authority. having seen both enough in life.

well, you’re going to my ignore list now. Blip!
Dweeb..

No No please do not do that. I need your vote.

 

[another_armchair]

Situation at Fingers area very critical.
PLA in no mood to relent and continues advancing taking yards over the ridges.

Status quo at Galwan for now but Fingers area could explode any moment.

 

[rock127]

Whole web is now saying that ~40 odd Chini soldiers dead.

Chini being nervous as Han Chinese EGO got busted. So now Chini have called for talks.

China likely lost at least 40 soldiers in border clash: Indian minister

China lost at least 40 soldiers in a clash with India at their disputed border this week, a federal government minister has said, as the ...

www.channelnewsasia.com

China lost at least 40 soldiers in border skirmish: Indian minister

MUMBAI (INDIA) - China lost at least 40 soldiers in a clash with India on the disputed border this week, said a federal government minister, as the two nations

www.britishherald.com

‘China likely lost 40 soldiers in border clash’

�China likely lost 40 soldiers in border clash�

www.daily-sun.com

China likely lost at least 40 soldiers in border clash: Indian minister

MUMBAI: China lost at least 40 soldiers in a clash with India at their disputed border this week, a federal government minister has said, as the...

www.omanobserver.om

China Lost At Least 40 Soldiers In Galwan, Claims VK Singh

China’s state controlled Global Times said earlier there had been casualties on the Chinese side but did not elaborate.

www.huffingtonpost.in

Ladakh face-off | China lost more than 40 soldiers in Galwan, says Gen. V.K. Singh

This is the first response from anyone in the government on casualties on the Chinese side in the clash

www.thehindu.com

China likely lost at least 40 soldiers in border clash: Indian minister

China has not said anything about any losses in the hand-to-hand combat that took place in the heavily contested Galwan Valley in the western Himalayas, in which 20 Indian soldiers were killed and at least 76 injured. "If 20 were martyred on our (Indian) side, then there would have been at least...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

China likely lost at least 40 soldiers in border clash: Indian minister

 

[AmitG]

India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.

India has deployed its specialised high altitude warfare forces along the 3,488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) to repel any transgression by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in either western, middle or eastern sectors.

India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, people aware of the development said.

www.hindustantimes.com

I dont think that the China of today has the stomach to see their soldiers in body bags. Remember their one child policy, make their men precious to their families. If a large number of body bags begin arriving a lot of families will be up in arms and unrest will follow. Specially in the current Covid19 situation and the situation with Hong Kong and Taiwan.

 

[garg_bharat]

Nothing is going to come out of it. Neither India or China can back down. Looks like a conflict looms.

PLA is building new positions daily. This is not a scene in which a compromise is possible.

It is a war scenario plain and simple.

This is what I said repeatedly. India does not want war and China does not want peace. So India will be forced into a war.

This is not a situation in which India has a choice.

I guess Global Times commentary is useless. Quoting it repeatedly is not serving any purpose.

 

[another_armchair]

PLA is a long way away from home.

It will take less than 24 hours for them to be totally cut off from their supply lines.

Why are they being suicidal?

Well, expecting Communists to be reasonable is a folly in itself.

 

[johnq]

Here’s the deal. These structures are not permanent. Can be dismantled. The fortification is something that is arguable, because various sources point out that these are not fortified.

We can also build the same now. There’s no one stopping us. We’ve completed all our bridges and the roads will be finished. Building fortified structures will not take long. It takes political will. Looking at the previous 2 weeks events, we can build them. Non issue.

Yes, their positions will have to be destroyed. Air strikes. Only way. Precision air strikes. When there’s war , the strikes will happen. Otherwise, we’re just going to have to wait to see what this goi is going to do.
Like I said Before, there is a lot of firepower amassed at Ladakh. They aren’t there just for show.

The buildings in Galwan valley and elsewhere are permanent cement reinforced structures several km into Indian territory. The current government position is that the armed forces are only allowed to defend against any further aggressions, which means that the Chinese have already occupied a lot of Indian territory. Underground nukes detonation near these Chinese buildings will not only collapse them, but also the underground tunnels below them that the Chinese are using to mine precious metals and minerals as well as move soldiers. An added bonus will be the PLA casualties in their underground facilities (which they will never admit to, as underground facilities and tunnels in these areas are in violation of their treaties). Since the PLA have already come in several kms into Indian territory, the detonations will be well inside Indian territory which should give India enough political cover.

 

[Mikel]

I dont think that the China of today has the stomach to see their soldiers in body bags. Remember their one child policy, make their men precious to their families. If a large number of body bags begin arriving a lot of families will be up in arms and unrest will follow. Specially in the current Covid19 situation and the situation with Hong Kong and Taiwan.

India hosted state funerals for martyrs, reported their names and tributed. PLA did not announce their soldier's names. PLA sent a soldier to send ash box of the dead body back to the soldier's home, which made martyrs' parents angry.