India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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Lets not divide the army based on some dumb martial race bs policy of the brits. (I know that wasn't your intention)

But each regiment is dependent upon others. Marathas cannot fight without Sikhs, Sikhs cannot fight without Biharis and so on. That's what makes IA a deadly coherent unit.

Sure, there are some hot headed regtt and some cool headed regtt and that's what balances out each others, kinda like our own family at home.

And yes, each regtt in Indian army is the very best.
i m talking about track record.I have no interest in martial race theory.

In uri and NE attack it was dogra and bihar regtt.

these regtt have a history of casualties in such attacks.
 

sydsnyper

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I dont think that the China of today has the stomach to see their soldiers in body bags. Remember their one child policy, make their men precious to their families. If a large number of body bags begin arriving a lot of families will be up in arms and unrest will follow. Specially in the current Covid19 situation and the situation with Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Bhai, I was just telling this to someone in a phone call today... !!! Males are precious commodities to the chinese. Getting a soldier killed is like squishing one testicle of a thousand Han.
 

maomao

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Just now a Vetran Lt Gen S P Sinha while exposing erstwhile Def Min AK Antony mentioned that BRO & Indian army built strategic roads during UPA, China threatened and Manmohan Singh ordered army that those roads should be destroyed (I can see why some corrupt vetrans under UPA made huge sums and now hate present GOI and IA)!

No doubt Bat munchers thought they will walk in and we will start blowing up our own Bridges and roads to show congress style compliance!!!! One mistake Chicoms did they didn't realize our PM has changed and Rahul Gandhi / Congress subservient agreement with CCP does not hold anymore!

Rest, we all know what our Bihari bros did to PLA - dangling necks, broken spinals cords, faces bashed beyond recognition so and so forth!
 

IndiaRising

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They've crossed the F4 ridge line and are staring down at the Indian position. At some point in the next few hours, this will become intolerable to the Indian leadership. Melee combat is impossible on that topography. So expect India to bite the bullet and spit it at chicoms.

View attachment 50912
why did we allow them to build up in the first place? We should have been up there at the f4 ridgeline and at foxhole point
 

AmitG

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PLA is building new positions daily. This is not a scene in which a compromise is possible.

It is a war scenario plain and simple.

This is what I said repeatedly. India does not want war and China does not want peace. So India will be forced into a war.

This is not a situation in which India has a choice.

I guess Global Times commentary is useless. Quoting it repeatedly is not serving any purpose.
China wants us to make the first move and I think we should. No other way to stop their creeping invasion. Saturate those narrow valley's where they have amassed in numbers, with artillery fire. They are sitting ducks. They thought that India would not retaliate and would just allow them to walk in with their pushing and shoving. Thats why they have come in with overwhelming numbers. It is those very numbers that will be their Achilles heel if things go hot.
 

rock127

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Question : What's the big deal about firing the first bullet. Suppose India fires the first bullet & Chinese retaliate, who is going to stop India from claiming that Chinese fired the first bullet?
Or a more likely scenario
If Chinese fire the first bullet & go out with propaganda that India fired the first bullet?
May be surprise Chini with some bow and arrow this time? Never heard such unprofessional coward "army" who can't fight a conventional war with guns.

1592810331104.png
 

Chanakya 002

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And what's the harm in that? A totally independent Tibet will fall into Chinese influence very soon. As it stands, it doesn't have any Civil-Military capability, no beureucracy, nothing. When China falls, who do you think will have to build that country from ground up? Us.

And a protectorate is a rule without being seeing as the ruler.
It should be forced to have its army of not more then 20K and a separate constitution which will be made by India and if any amendment they want in future they have to be compulsory get approval from the President,PM , CDS, CJI and leader of opposition from India.otherwise no amendment will be allowed.
 

ARVION

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Holding troops is a serious disadvantage, because now its Two front war. If it would've been only Chinese we have to fight for, then could've been a solution. But that's my opinion, no expert here, IA knows best.
We could reduce our causalities and hold positions only if we achieve a full air superiority around the valley but then Chinese would have to assault from the opens plains which is easy for logistic but a similar nightmare we had in Kargil and chinis would assault at night the only difference the Kargil scenario and the valley scenario is that it is a two way front but if we decide to move forward at least in few tens of kilometers then it could secure ours position but needs an extreme courage and blood to shaded for its complete success well IA knowns about the their capabilities and we could only think thall all for all of armchair warriors but I think like any army make many possible plans IA could also have some kind of similar plan and my thinking was only this could we even succeeded a bit in that kind of plan
 

IndiaRising

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i m talking about track record.I have no interest in martial race theory.

In uri and NE attack it was dogra and bihar regtt.

these regtt have a history of casualties in such attacks.
both uri and NE attack were ambushes. It could have happened to anybody.

If you remember in tiger hill, 8 Sikh was not able to complete mission on its own. It required help from 2 Naga and 18 Grenadiers. Although 8 Sikh did not initially have arty support and they also didn’t have proper cold weather gear required for those heights, but that’s true for most of the soldiers during kargil.
 

Akula

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Sardar Patel got the China reading so right....


Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel
Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel (1875-1950) was an Indian National Congress leader and a prominent figure in the Indian Freedom Struggle, who later became India’s first Deputy Prime Minister and first Home Minister of India. Responsible for successfully uniting 565 self-governing princely states to form a unified India, earned Sardar Patel the title — 'The Iron Man of India'. ◼
New Delhi
7 November 1950

My Dear Jawaharlal,
Ever since my return from Ahmedabad and after the cabinet meeting the same day which I had to attend at practically 15 minutes’ notice and for which I regret I was not able to read all the papers, I have been anxiously thinking over the problem of Tibet and I thought I should share with you what is passing through my mind.
I have carefully gone through the correspondence between the External Affairs Ministry and our Ambassador in Peking and through him the Chinese Government. I have tried to peruse this correspondence as favourably to our Ambassador and the Chinese Government as possible, but I regret to say that neither of them comes out well as a result of this study. The Chinese Government has tried to delude us by professions of peaceful intention. My own feeling is that at a crucial period they manage to instil into our Ambassador a false sense of confidence in their so-called desire to settle the Tibetan problem by peaceful means. There can be no doubt that during the period covered by this correspondence the Chinese must have been concentrating for an onslaught on Tibet. The final action of the Chinese, in my judgment, is little short of perfidy. The tragedy of it is that the Tibetans put faith in us; they choose to be guided by us, and we have been unable to get them out of the meshes of Chinese diplomacy or Chinese malevolence. From the latest position, it appears that we shall not be able to rescue the Dalai Lama. Our Ambassador has been at great pains to find an explanation or justification for Chinese policy and actions. As the External Affairs Ministry remarked in one of their telegrams, there was a lack of firmness and unnecessary apology in one or two representations that he made to the Chinese Government on our behalf. It is impossible to imagine any sensible person believing in the so-called threat to China from Anglo-American machinations in Tibet. Therefore, if the Chinese put faith in this, they must have distrusted us so completely as to have taken us as tools or stooges of Anglo-American diplomacy or strategy. This feeling, if genuinely entertained by the Chinese in spite of your direct approaches to them, indicates that even though we regard ourselves as friends of China, the Chinese do not regard us as their friends. With the Communist mentality of “whoever is not with them being against them,” this is a significant pointer, of which we have to take due note. During the last several months, outside the Russian camp, we have practically been alone in championing the cause of Chinese entry into UN and in securing from the Americans assurances on the question of Formosa. We have done everything we could to assuage Chinese feelings, to allay its apprehensions and to defend its legitimate claims in our discussions and correspondence with America and Britain and in the UN. In spite of this, China is not convinced about our disinterestedness; it continues to regard us with suspicion and the whole psychology is one, at least outwardly, of scepticism perhaps mixed with a little hostility. I doubt if we can go any further that we have done already to convince China of our good intentions, friendliness and goodwill. In Peking, we have an Ambassador who is eminently suitable for putting across the friendly point of view. Even he seems to have failed to convert the Chinese. Their last telegrame to us is an act of gross discourtesy not only in the summary way it disposes of our protest against the entry of Chinese forces into Tibet but also in the wild insinuation that our attitude is determined by foreign influences. It looks as though it is not a friend speaking in that language but a potential enemy.
In the background of this, we have to consider what new situation now faces us as a result of the disappearance of Tibet, as we knew it, and the expansion of China almost up to our gates. Throughout history we have seldom been worried about our north-east frontier. The Himalayas have been regarded as an impenetrable barrier against any threat from the north. We had friendly Tibet which gave us no trouble. The Chinese were divided. They had their own domestic problems and never bothered us about frontiers. In 1914, we entered into a convention with Tibet which was not endorsed by the Chinese. We seem to have regarded Tibetan autonomy as extending to independent treaty relationship. Presumably, all that we required was Chinese counter-signature. The Chinese interpretation of suzerainty seems to be different. We can, therefore, safely assume that very soon they will disown all the stipulations which Tibet has entered into with us in the past. That throws into the melting pot all frontier and commercial settlements with Tibet on which we have been functioning and acting during the last half a century. China is no longer divided. It is united and strong. All along the Himalayas in the north and north-east, we have on our side of the frontier a population ethnologically and culturally not different from Tibetans and Mongoloids. The undefined state of the frontier and the existence on our side of a population with its affinities to the Tibetans or Chinese have all the elements of the potential trouble between China and ourselves. Recent and bitter history also tells us that communism is no shield against imperialism and that the communist are as good or as bad imperialist as any other. Chinese ambitions in this respect not only covered the Himalayan slopes on our side but also include the important part of Assam. They have their ambitions in Burma also. Burma has the added difficulty that it has no McMohan line round which to build up even the semblance of an agreement. Chinese irredentism and communist imperialism are different from the expansionism or imperialism of the western powers. The former has a cloak of ideology which makes it ten times more dangerous. In the guise of ideological expansion lie concealed racial, national or historical claims. The danger from the north and north-east, therefore, becomes both communist and imperialist. While our western and non-western threat to security is still as prominent as before, a new threat has developed from the north and north-east. Thus, for the first time, after centuries, India’s defence has to concentrate itself on two fronts simultaneously. Our defence measures have so far been based on the calculations of superiority over Pakistan. In our calculations we shall now have to reckon with communist China in the north and in the north-east, a communist China which has definite ambitions and aims and which does not, in any way, seem friendly disposed towards us.
Let us also consider the political conditions on this potentially troublesome frontier. Our northern and north-eastern approaches consist of Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, the Darjeeling (area) and tribal areas in Assam. From the point of view of communication, there are weak spots. Continuous defensive lines do not exist. There is almost an unlimited scope for infiltration. Police protection is limited to a very small number of passes. There, too, our outposts do not seem to be fully manned. The contact of these areas with us is by no means close and intimate. The people inhabiting these portions have no established loyalty or devotion to India even the Darjeeling and Kalimpong areas are not free from pro-Mongoloid prejudices. During the last three years we have not been able to make any appreciable approaches to the Nagas and other hill tribes in Assam. European missionaries and other visitors had been in touch with them, but their influence was in no way friendly to India/Indians. In Sikkim, there was political ferment some time ago. It is quite possible that discontent is smouldering there. Bhutan is comparatively quiet, but its affinity with Tibetans would be a handicap. Nepal has a weak oligarchic regime based almost entirely on force; it is in conflict with a turbulent element of the population as well as with enlightened ideas of modern age. In these circumstances, to make people alive to the new danger or to make them defensively strong is a very difficult task indeed and that difficulty can be got over only by enlightened firmness, strength and a clear line of policy. I am sure the Chinese and their source of inspiration, Soviet Union would not miss any opportunity of exploiting these weak spots, partly in support of their ideology and partly in support of their ambitions. In my judgment, the situation is one which we cannot afford either to be complacent or to be vacillating. We must have a clear idea of what we wish to achieve and also of the methods by which we should achieve it. Any faltering or lack of decisiveness in formulating our objectives or in pursuing our policies to attain those objectives is bound to weaken us and increase the threats which are so evident.
Side by side with these external dangers, we shall now have to face serious internal problems as well. I have already asked (HVR) Iyengar to send to the EA Ministry a copy of the Intelligence Bureau’s appreciation of these matters. Hitherto, the Communist party of India has found some difficulty in contacting communists abroad, or in getting supplies of arms, literature, etc., from them. They had to contend with the difficult Burmese and Pakistan frontiers on the east with the long seaboard. They shall now have a comparatively easy means of access to Chinese communists and through them to other foreign communists. Infiltration of spies, fifth columnists and communists would now be easier. Instead of having to deal with isolated communist pockets and Telengana and Warangal we may have to deal with communist threats to our security along our northern and north-eastern frontiers, where, for supplies of arms and ammunition, they can safely depend on communist arsenals in China. The whole situation thus raises a number of problems on which we must come to early decision so that we can, as I said earlier, formulate the objectives of our policy and decide the method by which those objectives are to be attained. It is also clear that the action will have to be fairly comprehensive, involving not only our defence strategy and state of preparations but also problem of internal security to deal with which we have not a moment to lose. We shall also have to deal with administrative and political problems in the weak spots along the frontier to which I have already referred.
It is of course, impossible to be exhaustive in setting out all these problems. I am, however, giving below some of the problems which in my opinion, require early solution and round which we have to build our administrative or military policies and measures to implement them.
(a) A military and intelligence appreciation of the Chinese threat to 61 India both on the frontier and internal security.
(b) An examination of military position and such redisposition of our forces as might be necessary, particularly with the idea of guarding important routes or areas which are likely to be the subject of dispute.
(c) An appraisement of strength of our forces and, if necessary, reconsideration of our retrenchment plans to the Army in the light of the new threat. A long-term consideration of our defence needs. My own feeling is that, unless we assure our supplies of arms, ammunition and armour, we should be making a defence position perpetually weak and we would not be able to stand up to the double threat of difficulties both from the west and north and north-east.
(d) The question of Chinese entry into UN. In view of rebuff which China has given us and the method which it has followed in dealing with Tibet, I am doubtful whether we can advocate its claims any longer. There would probably be a threat in the UN virtually to outlaw China in view of its active participation in the Korean War. We must determine our attitude on this question also.
(e) The political and administrative steps which we should take to strengthen our northern and north-eastern frontier. This would include whole of border, i.e., Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Darjeeling and tribal territory of Assam.
(f) Measures of internal security in the border areas as well as the states flanking those areas such as U.P., Bihar, Bengal and Assam.
(g) Improvement of our communication, road, rail, air and wireless, in these areas and with the frontier outposts.
(h) The future of our mission at Lhasa and the trading post of Gyangtse and Yatung and the forces which we have in operation in Tibet to guard the trade routes.
(i) The policies in regards to McMohan line.

These are some of the questions which occur to my mind. It is possible that a consideration of these matters may lead us into wider question of our relationship with China, Russia, America, Britain and Burma. This, however would be of a general nature, though some might be basically very important, i.e., we might have to consider whether we should not enter into closer association with Burma in order to strengthen the latter in its dealings with China. I do not rule out the possibility that, before applying pressure on us, China might apply pressure on Burma. With Burma, the frontier is entirely undefined and the Chinese territorial claims are more substantial. In its present position, Burma might offer an easier problem to China, and, therefore, might claim its first attention.
I suggest that we meet early to have a general discussion on these problems and decide on such steps as we might think to be immediately necessary and direct, quick examination of other problems with a view to taking early measure to deal with them.
Yours,
Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel Signature
Vallabhbhai Patel


Friends of Tibet


"
A letter from past for the future
 
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