India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[garg_bharat]

Ok lets assume that his speech was placatory signaling for reconciliation alright! But would the Chinese accept de-facto LOC at P-4 and somewhere in Galwan valley? At P-4 only 500 mts separates the two armies now (per Shiv Aroor) , we just built a bridge in Galwan. Now what? Is this going to lead us to lasting peace, Is Modi stupid to think that this where it ends?

We never had any 'lasting peace' with China. There is nothing new today.

China is a very aggressive country which will keep pushing on, unless put in its place by the world.

The distance of 500m that you quoted (and I am afraid it may be less in other places) shows massive forces China has assembled in Ladakh and elsewhere.

This is why I think we are moving towards war.

Indian leadership does not want war. It is trying to avert war. But remember fate always trumps man.

 

[garg_bharat]

One thing people don’t realise is this so called nationalist govt has brought down defence spending as a percentage of GDP to its lowest in years if not decades. The mountain strike corps was curtailed . The economy has been destroyed. Only chest thumping and hot air about making India strong while actions are the opposite. Only thing they know to do is blame Nehru and the opposition. Only losers blame others.

You are blind in your hate. You are unable to see that economy was going down all over the world, not only in India. Large countries have announced major stimulus packages to support economy.

If economy goes down, everything gets cut INCLUDING military expenditure. However prioritization and rationalization can help tide through tough times.

You are hinting that the so called 'downsizing of mountain corps' brought this day. You are obviously day dreaming. China does not care how many mountain corps you have. What will matter is how your soldiers fight. Any fight with China will be extremely bloody.

 

[prasadr14]

Btw,

Why is everyone twisting as if we are doing nothing & we will do nothing.

We are moving tens of thousands of troops,
we are building roads and bridges to transport troops,
we are moving all sorts of equipment,
Even our AF is now involved.

Exactly which of these speak of de-escalation?

Modi speech was in context of what happened in last few months & not what happened in last 70 years.

get a grip guys.

If we wanted to do nothing,
nothing would have happened.

Simply because we are hitting back, things are happening.

 

[garg_bharat]

Guys, it's time to realize Modi is encircled with sycophants and his Baniya Buddhi is unable to think that nothing comes above national integrity and political wins. This was clear on 27th February 2019 when Pakistan tried to attack Indian Army HQ inside India and Modi did nothing because his victory was sealed.

India's strategy is to keep the conflict 'sub-conventional'. Full scale war is to be avoided. The same strategy is followed by Pakistan. Right or wrong is to be decided by military minds.

You are wrong that Modi is directing this war. The war is planned and executed by military. The GOI chooses an option from options presented by the military.

The cost of war will always play in the minds of planners in democratic countries. This is a deficiency of India's political setup.

 

[aerokan]

Btw,

Why is everyone twisting as if we are doing nothing & we will do nothing.

We are moving tens of thousands of troops,
we are building roads and bridges to transport troops,
we are moving all sorts of equipment,
Even our AF is now involved.

Exactly which of these speak of de-escalation?

Modi speech was in context of what happened in last few months & not what happened in last 70 years.

get a grip guys.

If we wanted to do nothing,
nothing would have happened.

Simply because we are hitting back, things are happening.

Hope you are right on this. But context is a bitch. Everyone interprets the way they want to. The speech will be interpreted as capitulation.. not just last few months...

Everytime we sneeze, pakistan moves troops and everything in their arsenal from east to west and vice versa. The shittiest thing in this whole episode is that we are looking like Pakistanis and they are gladly laughing at us seeing us behaving like them.

If not for that one statement from Modi.. i would have completely agreed with you.

 

[Khich]

India's strategy is to keep the conflict 'sub-conventional'. Full scale war is to be avoided. The same strategy is followed by Pakistan. Right or wrong is to be decided by military minds.

You are wrong that Modi is directing this war. The war is planned and executed by military. The GOI chooses an option from options presented by the military.

The cost of war will always play in the minds of planners in democratic countries. This is a deficiency of India's political setup.

I was thinking on the same lines. Do similar to what the Pakistanis do with us. Keep the border hot. Force the Chinese to have these deployments all across the border and year round. Raise the costs for them.

 

[Waanar]

I was thinking on the same lines. Do similar to what the Pakistanis do with us. Keep the border hot. Force the Chinese to have these deployments all across the border and year round. Raise the costs for them.

That's impossible without fanning some insurgency in Tibet and Xinjiang. If you want to make it painful, it's a must.

How to do it is anyone's guess.

 

[Bhadra]

IMO we need to do soemthing about the ITBP.
We need to start recruiting youngians in the Force.
Train them right with Mountain warfare doctrine and put them in defensive positions all over the LAC.
Defence doesn't mean they can't use deadly force. Arm them with DMR, Sniper and Machine guns for maximum fire power. The IA will solely be responsible for Offensive into Tibet and Xijiang.

If we do it over a period of 5 years it will need just 2 billion extra.

If one Really wants to Do something about ITBP -

* Revert ITBP.s Mountain folks Character in composition. That can be done by reducing the numbers of mountain people from other CAPF to maintain overall All India Character of CAPF as such.
* Reduce the number of years of colour service in ITBP by transferring all personnel of ITBP above 40 years into BSF and SSB.

* All appointment up to Sector Commanders (DIG) must be tenable by ITBP cadre officers.

* All ITBP battalions deployed on LAC (minimum 30 battalions) and sector HQ must be brought under the operational command of the Army. Rest 30 battalions should be used for turn over, stationed in peace stations near their recruitment bases, performing light internal Security duties as part of peace tenure but ready to be deployed on LAC in emergencies.

* All ITBP training institutes and centres must be manned by Army personnel on deputation.

* Administrative structure of ITBP to remain under MHA as it is.

This a compromised functional model. Compromised to keep IPS happy.

 

[garg_bharat]

Thank you for putting it clearly. @Sridhar_TN try reading this first para so that you understand what i am trying to get you to understand.

@FactsPlease Even if he risks it like he did just now.. we can't really trust China to upload their end of the bargain.. case in point Hongkong. Also moments after Modi admitted.. China extended their claim. That's the main problem. Even if he sacrifices his political career for the sake of future.. other party is not reliable enough to uphold the bargain.

Yes China cannot be trusted.

Again I am not sure what is playing on here. There is no verification on the ground by a third party so a vague statement by a leader cannot be called a definitive statement.

LAC (line of ACTUAL control) is basically a ceasefire line. It cannot be called a border.

Militarization of LAC is sure-shot path to war. Nothing else is likely outcome.

 

[Bhadra]

I was thinking on the same lines. Do similar to what the Pakistanis do with us. Keep the border hot. Force the Chinese to have these deployments all across the border and year round. Raise the costs for them.

Keeping a border hot has its costs. It akin to keeping snakes in a room next to your bedrooms. The same cost can be utilised in building infrastructure in border areas and border areas development. What is the use of providing more employment to those useless OFB guys and filling pockets of MoD babus, getting your men killed and maimed thereby inflicting a wound on your social structure? creating more widows and orphans is not a good call.

Borders like the skin of the body must be " Niramaya " (free from afflictions) for the overall health of the nation.

 

[ProudIndian36]

There's indigenous equipemtn that could have been inducted. The governmetn relies on public shit companies like OFB to make things, low quality. Dhanush could be outsourced to any company, Kalyani whoever with 1000 produced by now if the government moved quick. Indian Army will forever be a political pawn. Its horrible how slow things run in this country.

This government should make it an absolute priority to set straight military production and a industry. They should use this emergency to liquidate OFB and useless Public Sector and get private players like Kalyani in.

It is absolutely essential to have our military production full force with quality equipment for our Armed forces if we are going to defeat China.

 

[bhramos]

 

[afako]

This is all part of psy ops. Typical Chinese text book play. Make you demoralzie and decredit Modi Govt. They hype Tzu Sun beyond limits but they forget that this is the land of Chanakya Niti. We are not some Abrahamic converted shithole. We are a deeper civilization than China itself.

 

[Sudarshana]

Indian Army Finishes Constructing Strategic Bridge Over Galwan River Which China Tried To Stop

The Indian Army has finished constructing a 60 metre long bridge over the Galwan river in Eastern Ladakh despite attempts by China to scuttle it, Hindustan Times has reported

swarajyamag.com

This story claims that bridge was built at the site of deadly clash from this week. So technically, we built the bridge on their land going by what Modi said. Regardless of the location the Govt is certainly not pussyfooting but infact pushing the escalatory ladder.

 

[afako]

There will be consequences big ones for Chinese public betrayal of Modi.

They will not go unanswered. There will be diplomatic, economic, military and geo political fallout. Have some patience. It will be in the coming days months and years.

 

[Indrajit]

You are blind in your hate. You are unable to see that economy was going down all over the world, not only in India. Large countries have announced major stimulus packages to support economy.

If economy goes down, everything gets cut INCLUDING military expenditure. However prioritization and rationalization can help tide through tough times.

You are hinting that the so called 'downsizing of mountain corps' brought this day. You are obviously day dreaming. China does not care how many mountain corps you have. What will matter is how your soldiers fight. Any fight with China will be extremely bloody.

Having the additional mountain corps would have helped our position immensely. There is no such thing as China doesn’t care what we have. They see what we have and have decided that they can take it on in the unlikely event that we muster up the guts to fight. If China doesn’t care, and we can’t fight, then I suppose we just offer up our backsides to them. Btw, we should intend for an fight with China to be bloody, very bloody.

I agree with you that the economy isn’t in a great position. However the absolute lack of preparation for such an eventuality is negligent in my opinion. It’s true that China wouldn’t have cared if there was Modi or Manmohan Singh but this government raised its pitch and then did nothing. PM Modi was the one doing all the wooing of Xi and not learning from anything that China did, not the ncursion when Xi was in India, not from Doklam, nothing. Surely some urgency could have been shown about military preparedness.

One can choose not to fight because of making a determination that a fight at that point of time is not wise. However if you chose not to fight because you can’t or don’t have the capacity to fight, that’s completely different. Should have kept the bluster in check then, for starters. Make no mistake, the Chinese have shown what they think of Modi and Xi has made his disdain and contempt clear. If Modi doesn’t learn, I guarantee there will be more humiliation to follow.

As for the speech, sometimes there is value in being “maun” and not just for Dr. Manmohan Singh.

 

[Kanwaljit]

Indian Army Finishes Constructing Strategic Bridge Over Galwan River Which China Tried To Stop

The Indian Army has finished constructing a 60 metre long bridge over the Galwan river in Eastern Ladakh despite attempts by China to scuttle it, Hindustan Times has reported

swarajyamag.com

This story claims that bridge was built at the site of deadly clash from this week. So technically, we built the bridge on their land going by what Modi said. Regardless of the location the Govt is certainly not pussyfooting but infact pushing the escalatory ladder.

Does anyone know where the crossing point across Shyok is to get to Galwan?

 

[Bhadra]

Yes China cannot be trusted.

Again I am not sure what is playing on here. There is no verification on the ground by a third party so a vague statement by a leader cannot be called a definitive statement.

LAC (line of ACTUAL control) is basically a ceasefire line. It cannot be called a border.

Militarization of LAC is sure-shot path to war. Nothing else is likely outcome.

What do you mean be ACTUAL ??
Is actual a permanent line or subject to shifting?
Who makes it shift? That is the threat.
If it is military that can shift it then you have no option but to militarise that line.
There can not be any arguments on that.

CFL is arrived at by an agreement between two sides and is well defined like 1948 CFL between India and Pakistan.
Is India China-LAC is the result of CFL ? and What is that CFL?
Is it a line up to which the Chinese had come or a line where the Chinese withdrew after the war?

India China-LAC thus is a complex issue which so far has been based on understanding, control expressed in various forms, traditions, customs as also various agreements.

It unmistakenly is a military line subject to change, ingress, occupation, and violence. Therefore militarisation of that line can not be avoided.

 

[sachincba]

India's strategy is to keep the conflict 'sub-conventional'. Full scale war is to be avoided. The same strategy is followed by Pakistan. Right or wrong is to be decided by military minds.

You are wrong that Modi is directing this war. The war is planned and executed by military. The GOI chooses an option from options presented by the military.

The cost of war will always play in the minds of planners in democratic countries. This is a deficiency of India's political setup.

Yes, military directs the war. People are wrongly thinking that Modi is stopping them, while Modi has given army, Navy and Air force free hand by seeing the mobilization. Now, military knows best what it has to do and when it has to do.
I would prefer that follow a good strategy with cool mind and slaughter a few thousand Chinese with minimal losses on our side. That will teach them a good lesson. A war of high attrition we might not be looking for now.

 

[Indrajit]

There will be consequences big ones for Chinese public betrayal of Modi.

They will not go unanswered. There will be diplomatic, economic, military and geo political fallout. Have some patience. It will be in the coming days months and years.

I should hope so . Certainly economic and diplomatic immediately.