India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Assassin 2.0]

What did Menekshaw say?

He said that if he had chosen the Pakistan after independence and was leading paki army then Pakistani would have won the 1971 war.

 

[IndianHawk]

He said that if he had chosen the Pakistan after independence and was leading paki army then Pakistani would have won the 1971 war.

Well glory can some time go to head. No big deal. Men did his job . Now let him rest in peace.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Well glory can some time go to head. No big deal. Men did his job . Now let him rest in peace.

I'm fan of legendary field marshal sam manekshaw

 

[Bhadra]

Yup, there must be a reason, limited info was released. News is only that they went to F7 from upper reaches, and no news on what happened after that. it could well be that they did their recce and came back.

there is one more image floating around of the pangong tso with a larger area snow clad at the top, unlike the cropped images(with fingers) being used for discussions. if anyone finds it post it here... it will give more clarity...

I have captured one.
Yes there is snow on top even in summer. The height must be above 5000m, Top to fingers 4 is 15.5km so it is of no use to hold the top. Distance from middle of the ridge to fingers is 8.4km .. so of no use... I do not know who is floating the story of top being occupied. One can theoretically occupy the lower portions of the spurs but this bare rugged steep stony and boulder slopes would hardly permit that. However, those on ground would know better.

 

[ezsasa]

I have captured one.
Yes there is now on top even in summer. The height must be above 5000m, Top to fingers 4 is 15.5km so it is of no use to hold the top. Distance from middle of the ridge to fingers is 8.4km .. so of no use... I do not know who is floating the story of top being occupied. One can theoretically occupy the lower portions of the spurs but this bare rugged steep stony and boulder slopes would hardly permit that. However, those on ground would know better.

View attachment 50241

yup, we’ll have to wait for a bit for more clarity.

high probability that recce is being confused with capturing.

 

[Bhadra]

This and our uninterrupted and uninterruptible road building activities to DBO along the LAC has pissed off the Chinese! This threatens their illegal occupation of the Karakoram Pass, 10km from DBO, thence on to the Shaksgam, Raskam and Aghil valleys (Illegally gifted by Pak to the Chinese in 1963) and further threatens their $70 billion CPEC project in G/B . To clarify, the Chinese think that KK Pass is in illegal occupation of Indians and need to take it back sooner than later!

Then of course is Mota Bhai's assertion that Aksai Chin is part of the UT of Ladakh. He seems to have killed many Chinese birds with one Indian stone!

When did the Chinese Occupy Karakoram Pass ? Some guys (?) have to be there..

 

[right wing]

Ofcourse ofcourse ... But they were at f5 now they are at F4 that's 2-3 km . And making roads doesn't means we lost territory but putting Soldiers permanently means losing territory. That's exactly what they have done. They couldn't make permanent base at f5. It was always temporary but they can do at F4. And that's exactly they are doing now. Yeah Digging is not making bunkers , they are doing it for fun

A metalled road through is not losing territory?
If as per your assertion the base at F5 is temporary,cause they couldn't make it permanent
Then what makes you believe that they will be able to make a permanent base at F4
DIGGING can be for laying small tent reinforcements or a plain toilet plan.
Obviously none of these digging will be revealed via satellite that easily,but a large permanent base making type infra is easily detectable and so far hasn't been so

 

[Shashank Nayak]

remember it as Kumaon, It was on India today ajai Shukla, Rohit vats & Maj Gen Ata hassnain were there along with Nitin Gokhale. Don’t remember the date.

Walijng to finger 8 from an alternate route is very different from fortifying the route and outfla king the Chinese.. Are there other sources who say this ?

 

[ezsasa]

Walijng to finger 8 from an alternate route is very different from fortifying the route and outfla king the Chinese.. Are there other sources who say this ?

nope, only one. Nitin..
He has been consistent in his words, others are trying to sensationalise.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

nope, only one. Nitin..
He has been consistent in his words, others are trying to sensationalise.

But Nitin only said we used an alternate path, over the top. He didn't say anything about fortification of the path...

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm fan of legendary field marshal sam manekshaw

Manekshaw was a drunken sod, JFR Jacob won us the 1971 war...

 

[HawkisRight]

He said that if he had chosen the Pakistan after independence and was leading paki army then Pakistani would have won the 1971 war.

Well he was wrong then..if he was in Pakistan he would've never become army chief of Pakistan
It was India which gave Refuge to Parsi's from islamic barbarism

 

[abhay rajput]

A metalled road through is not losing territory?
If as per your assertion the base at F5 is temporary,cause they couldn't make it permanent
Then what makes you believe that they will be able to make a permanent base at F4
DIGGING can be for laying small tent reinforcements or a plain toilet plan.
Obviously none of these digging will be revealed via satellite that easily,but a large permanent base making type infra is easily detectable and so far hasn't been so

The reason why road is not the problem because there is not Chinese presence which can stop our patrol . It can work both way since both sides patrol each other claim lines. The reason is simple if you see the geography of that area you will understand why they weren't able to build permanent camp at f5 . Also read what happens in summer and winter in those areas.. It will be visible in some time creating bunker and infrastructure at those locations isn't easy and you will also see indian bunkers at f4 too. The distance isn't much aka both indian and Chinese soldiers can actually see what the other sides is doing at f4.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Hum itne chutiya he ki hume Nepal bhi dhamki de rha he.

Some people here said that Indian businessmen are robbing Nepali people..So heres the solution.

Nepal being a landlocked country can go fuck themselves and we should lock the border.

Ask sugar daddy china to supply oil and food items.

No jobs for Nepali citizen in India.China can provide that.

Our emoloyment rate sucks and we are helping bloody bangladeshi and nepali and for what?

Nepalis hate Indians...coz they are jealous of our success.Same is the reason for Bangladeshi hating us and also sri lankans.

We are fucking 1.4 billion and instead of spending money on taking care of our adivasis we are putting that in Nepal.

And now to this argument that Nepal will become china...Let it fucking become like Sri lanka has and just announce...We will bomb the fuck out of any country around us which gives shelter to anti india powers..like we did in Balakot.

Oh by the way the suckers will come and say Gurkhas are gods in battlefield...bullshit!

Gurkhas commited Jallianwala bagh...Gurkhas surrendered in Sierra Leone..they are not god so stop sucking upto them.

And by the way the highest awarded regtt in India is SIKHLI!!!!

 

[AMCA]

Time to take on the neighbourhood bully

Shiv Kunal Verma

• Updated
• :
• June 13, 2020,
• 9:08 PM

File photo of ITBP personnel and Chinese soldiers somewhere near the LAC in the Ladakh sector. ANI
Georg Hegel says we learn from history that we have never learnt from history. In the context of Indo-Sino relations, this couldn’t be more true. Fifty-eight years after getting our tail tweaked, not so much by the Chinese, but by our own inept handling of the situation, we as a people and a nation are making a mockery of our own standing. In 2020, when the world is staring at multiple crises, perhaps among the worst ever, we didn’t light the fire on the northern borders, but now that it has been started, let’s play the game to win… for as Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw said to the Indian Military Academy passing out gentlemen cadets in 2002, “There is no place for a loser. If you lose, even your gharwali will not look at you.” That couldn’t be more true!
In 1962, whether it was 2 Rajput at Nam Ka Chu, 1 Sikh at Bumla, 4 Garhwal Rifles at Nuranang and Sela, 5 Guards at Thembang, 6 Kumaon and 4 Sikh at Walong, 5 Jat at Galwan or 13 Kumaon at Rezangla, the men fought and died with tremendous dignity and bravery. The trouble on all these occasions was the complete panic and chaos behind them—instead of reinforcing their success and taking the fight to the Chinese. Indian casualties galloped when the men were ordered to withdraw, not so much when they stood their ground and fought.
The Indian Army can more than easily take care of the borders, but the pin pricks and infiltration tactics will continue to make us bleed so long as we continue to deal with the border problem with blinkers on. Part of the Chinese game plan is to fan the fear psychology and I must say we have quite a few paper tigers amongst us doing just that. Chief among them is a person (I refuse to call him an officer) who in 2012 masterminded the blue print for India to withdraw from Siachen under instructions from the then powers that be. In 2020, he would have the government of the day rush headlong into an offensive just to counter his taunts. Anyway, the threat to India has always been from within and so long as we understand that, all the drum beaters who are behaving like a troop of twittering macaques at the sight of a leopard will be neutralised. On the larger canvas of time, I think the time has come for this country to stand up and change the narrative. And how!
We have been left with no option but to take the fight to the Chinese. It is not just with bayonets, rifles and missiles do we need to fight, we must fight them with everything we’ve got. But first we have to get our house in order—those not in power must not see this as Narendra Modi’s Waterloo a la Nehru, but stand together and shut the gates of Fortress India just this once. The government too must reach out to all parties and work out a common strategy. This cannot be an election issue, but a fight to take on the neighbourhood bully. We do that and half our battle is won!
As I said earlier, we didn’t start the fire—either in 2020 or in 1962. China, ever since it became the PRC under Mao, has ridden roughshod over India, which, in this bilateral relationship, ever since 1962, has adopted a submissive posture. Combined with the fact that most of mankind was exhausted by WWII and unlikely to take on Chinese expansion, Chairman Mao pulled off the largest real estate heist by annexing first Sinkiang and then Tibet. As a result, post-Independent India, which had nothing to do with China, suddenly had it as its northern neighbour, extending across 3,500 km of the most hostile terrain on the planet extending from Indira Point in Siachen in the west to Kibithu in the east.
Militarily, we as a nation failed to hold the Chinese in 1962 for a variety of reasons, most of which are brought out in my book published by Aleph (1962: The War That Wasn’t). At the time, 99% of India was too busy fighting for survival after 200 years of colonialism had ravaged the country, to be aware of the country’s frontiers, let alone worry about it. As a result, even after the military skirmish in 1962, few knew why we had fought the Chinese. Despite being the victim, we threw in the towel and a panicky leadership was just grateful that the Chinese went back to the McMahon Line.
The story is different now; 58 years later the history is known and the facts are indisputable. What China did in 1949, the 1950s and early 1960s was just plain and simple armed robbery—take what you want and kill those who stand in your way. They wanted Sinkiang and Tibet—they took it. They then needed the Aksai Chin to link these two—they took it.
Regardless of what and how the government of the day decides to do to defuse the immediate issue in Ladakh, we, as a nation, need to revisit these key issues. Today, in the comity of nations, China is striving to be seen as a “responsible” country and has repeatedly said it respects the “mechanisms” that are in place for a dialogue to sort out problems. So, let’s, for once, armed with the knowledge we have now, take them on. For a change let us start the fire! If we do not do that, India’s runt status in the face of Chinese aggression will keep haunting us and we will keep debating where Claim Line 1, Claim Line 2 and Claim Line 3 are. You may already have a Claim Line 4 and this will continue unless we outstare Xi Jinping and the rest of PRC.
TAKE CHINA TO ICJ
Let us revisit these key issues now—McMahon Line (1913/14), the ceding of the Shaksgham Valley by Pakistan to China, Aksai Chin, even Tibet. We put the facts before our people and also the rest of the world and ask China to walk the talk, take the matter to the International Court of Justice. The border with Tibet was based on the survey done by Captains Morshead and Baily in 1913, who demarcated the watershed (it is not a thick pencil line on a map open to interpretation, as again some of our learned friends would want us to believe!) and it was firmed up the next year at Simla.
Why would China agree to take the matter to the ICJ? Well, for a start, Government of India must start a major global campaign placing the facts before the rest of the world. The narrative is so blatantly in our favour, I wonder why we’ve never aggressively done it before. But more than the international community, the narrative needs to be understood by our own people, who then must unite and shut China out. Take your market away in real terms, it will hurt our northern neighbour much more than artillery guns opening up all along the border.
Xi Jinping is not an idiot, nor is the Communist Party that runs China today. A whimpering India grovelling at the feet of the US is a threat to their China and it is their natural instinct to rub the Indian nose further in the dust. Not just the Chinese, every bully will always whack the other guy every time he passes him by. Turn the tables, and let’s see where it goes. Geographically and logically, a Russia-China-India partnership benefits our northern friends a lot more than the current state of affairs.
I would actually go a step further and advocate we take on Pakistan as well—your two-front offensive! We took the matter of J&K to the UN in 1949 and it stalled mainly because of geo-political reasons that we failed to understand then. Post-1963, after Pakistan ceded the Shaksgam Valley and cosily got into bed with Mao, it became the cat’s paw for China to play with India. The biggest chunk of Indian territory occupied in J&K is today effectively under Chinese control, and that includes the Northern Areas and the Gilgit Agency, which is legally Indian territory, again usurped by armed tribal hordes and the Pakistan army.
The basic evidence is all there in my two books, The Long Road to Siachen: The Question Why (Rupa) and the 1962 book. If with my limited resources and dedicated research I as an individual can trace these facts, I see no reason why all the evidence cannot be put together to make our case in front of the rest of the world. We the people need to see the situation with this historical perspective and then take on the Chinese with real facts, rather than flit around deliberately created “pinpricks” that throw everything off balance. We must also remember that all the Chinese records pertaining to Tibet are with the Taiwan government, and not the PRC. Those maps and agreements tell a very different story from what Mao and his successors would have us believe. This will probably apply to other occupied regions as well.
At the end of the day, geopolitics is a game of perceptions and we are dealing with China that today has the kind of resources which are hard to imagine. Economically and otherwise, they may be light years ahead of us, and they do not shy away from investing in “perception management”. After the communists came to power in Nepal, for example, the first thing the Chinese did was to buy out most of their media companies. Today, even our friendly neighbourhood brother, who has everything in common with us and nothing in common with China, is dancing in the streets and waving khukris in the air.
We are dealing with a dangerous adversary who will exploit every chink in our armour to keep us off balance. God alone knows we are our worst enemies, having systematically weakened our own security apparatus. But our Army and security forces have, thanks partly to the Chinese, become battle hardened from years of fighting insurgencies. We need to up the ante, especially vis-à-vis our paramilitary forces that need to be sharpened. It is worth remembering the PLA got its nose bloodied by the Vietnamese Border Guards when it last tried to venture forth into someone else’s land. We need to put all the gulli danda nonsense of the past behind us and get our act together.
There are plenty of domain experts out there. Prime Minister Modi and his government now need to pick the right team. We as Indians, have today run out of options. We either stand up and hold our ground, or we might as well open up our companies to 100% Chinese investment.
China is often depicted as the dragon. Our country’s motto is “Satyameva Jayate”…so let’s fight this war by these non-violent means and be prepared to fight if we have to. Tweak the dragon’s tail and let’s see what happens. Conventional wisdom tells us if you stand up to a bully, he quietly goes home. Otherwise he will always continue to have his knee on our neck.
Shiv Kunal Verma is the author of “1962: The War That Wasn’t” and “The Long Road to Siachen: The Question Why”. His forthcoming book, “1965: A Western Sunrise”, will be released by Aleph later this year.

 

[HawkisRight]

Hum itne chutiya he ki hume Nepal bhi dhamki de rha he.

Some people here said that Indian businessmen are robbing Nepali people..So heres the solution.

Nepal being a landlocked country can go fuck themselves and we should lock the border.

Ask sugar daddy china to supply oil and food items.

No jobs for Nepali citizen in India.China can provide that.

Our emoloyment rate sucks and we are helping bloody bangladeshi and nepali and for what?

Nepalis hate Indians...coz they are jealous of our success.Same is the reason for Bangladeshi hating us and also sri lankans.

We are fucking 1.4 billion and instead of spending money on taking care of our adivasis we are putting that in Nepal.

And now to this argument that Nepal will become china...Let it fucking become like Sri lanka has and just announce...We will bomb the fuck out of any country around us which gives shelter to anti india powers..like we did in Balakot.

Oh by the way the suckers will come and say Gurkhas are gods in battlefield...bullshit!

Gurkhas commited Jallianwala bagh...Gurkhas surrendered in Sierra Leone..they are not god so stop sucking upto them.

And by the way the highest awarded regtt in India is SIKHLI!!!!

Sir control I can understand ur frustration but Gurkhas hav laid their lives for India so plz be sensitive about it.. problem is not Nepal problem is not oli problem is not Pakistan problem is China...U solve China U solve everything

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Sir control I can understand ur frustration but Gurkhas hav laid their lives for India so plz be sensitive about it.. problem is not Nepal problem is not oli problem is not Pakistan problem is China

Gurkhas are getting a salary for working in Indian army and also British Army.

If they have a problem better not join and let other Indians take up the job.

Its not a favour bro... Its not!

 

[Waanar]

Hum itne chutiya he ki hume Nepal bhi dhamki de rha he.

Some people here said that Indian businessmen are robbing Nepali people..So heres the solution.

Nepal being a landlocked country can go fuck themselves and we should lock the border.

Ask sugar daddy china to supply oil and food items.

No jobs for Nepali citizen in India.China can provide that.

Our emoloyment rate sucks and we are helping bloody bangladeshi and nepali and for what?

Nepalis hate Indians...coz they are jealous of our success.Same is the reason for Bangladeshi hating us and also sri lankans.

We are fucking 1.4 billion and instead of spending money on taking care of our adivasis we are putting that in Nepal.

And now to this argument that Nepal will become china...Let it fucking become like Sri lanka has and just announce...We will bomb the fuck out of any country around us which gives shelter to anti india powers..like we did in Balakot.

Oh by the way the suckers will come and say Gurkhas are gods in battlefield...bullshit!

Gurkhas commited Jallianwala bagh...Gurkhas surrendered in Sierra Leone..they are not god so stop sucking upto them.

And by the way the highest awarded regtt in India is SIKHLI!!!!

God, saar, chill.
If we can, we will. Nepalis themselves have a rising dissent against Oli and we just need to chill and wait for status quo to be restored. If the Indian military does start bombing everything, when will our diplomats and intel agencies learn to get us out of tricky geopolitical situations?

I believe it'd be a great exercise for R&AW to try overthrowing the incumbent government and maybe bring about a merger or militancy focused on merger.

Fingers crossed.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

God, saar, chill.
If we can, we will. Nepalis themselves have a rising dissent against Oli and we just need to chill and wait for status quo to be restored. If the Indian military does start bombing everything, when will our diplomats and intel agencies learn to get us out of tricky geopolitical situations?

I believe it'd be a great exercise for R&AW to try overthrowing the incumbent government and maybe bring about a merger or militancy focused on merger.

Fingers crossed.

Dude go and interact with Nepalese in real life.

All this propoganda of them being pro Indian will get lost very soon.

We have to bomb every port and every airfield that will allow Chinese military to be used against India.

Nepal is already a second terrorist hub for ISI.

 

[Indrajit]

Well glory can some time go to head. No big deal. Men did his job . Now let him rest in peace.

Well he was wrong then..if he was in Pakistan he would've never become army chief of Pakistan
It was India which gave Refuge to Parsi's from islamic barbarism

Just a particularly strong parsee sense of humour. He was asked what would have happened if he has chosen the Pakistani army and he replied that they would have won the war in that case. There was nothing more there.