India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Floydian]

The entire standoff was made to become a cluster fuck situation first by the chinese move and second by the handling of the situation by the govt .

People here are saying chinese put the govt in a sticky situation or pushed to a corner . No they just did only 20 % of that rest 80 % came from the constant spin denial created by govt and put itself in that situation

Chinese occupied the land claimed by us what could have govt done they could have simply told chinese made temporary camps in the locations claimed by us but never occupied this one simple sentence would have taken so much burden from govt's back .

Instead govt thought people don't have the right to know what's happening and it control the narrative so it can keep saying there is no troops in our claimed area and china first leaked the video and then released the picture and people started picking up satellite pictures and started tearing govt's claim slowly . Govt should have acted sensible at this stage instead it let another bunch of morons like that mitra to push again narrative that there is no chinese troops in our claimed territory

Govt move after move put itself in the situation what it is today . why did they do it ? god knows may be someone in govt thought they don't want to look like outsmarted by chinese

If you want public on your side you have to build narrative . At time of Pulwama govt kept building that public narrative by the pictures of the attack location the coffins and every day slowly built the pressure inside public asking for a revenge . Now look at current standoff as govt said no territory is occupied no citizen is even worried that much and going on buying realme and xioami in flash sales and moving on with their lives

Two things are getting clear GoI is in no mood for any action this much is becoming slowly clear by blowing peace very early govt has shown its intention for de-escalation and not any mood for escalation .The message we are getting from COAS to RM is we are not in mood for any escalation

How will the govt justify military action suddenly after claiming for a month there is nothing to worry in the region and all is in our control , if they start an action now they will have to justify that they are reclaiming back the area lost in 1962 in that case people will ask why only few fingers and one valley why not the entire region of aksai chin ?

Too much of dumb babugiri has screwed the govt today , If you look at the statements its coming from MEA and not from MoD as usual IFS babus would have assured the govt that they will resolve the issues with their peking peers peacefully and restore the status quo so don't blow the war bugle and wake up the public and govt listened to that and got itself in quick sand situation where its feeling now that its going down faster .

And i personally feel a jolt like this is very badly needed now you either take modernisation seriously or just simply stop doing any spending on defence and go ahead with all your freebie socialist schemes for which there is no shortage of freeloader in this country keep winning elections on that plank and don't bring national security as your forte again if its going to be handled by the same peking parrots in MEA.

Look how things changed 2016 Surgical strikes . Press briefing was done by DGMO Lt.gen Ranbir singh, 2019 Balakot who did the press briefing it was from MEA why was a babu need to explain about military action ?
were the targets any different 2016 terrorist launch pads 2019 terrorist camps both inside another country territory . But why for one you choose Armed forces to explain and for another you left it to babudom ?

Totally agree with your points.
It's seems that the current govt doesnt wanna be seen in a situation where they look like they have been outplayed and outsmarted by the chinese. Heck, the anti-national brigade is constantly trying to attack this denial after denial of the current govt in accepting the situation. Out govt needs to be bold enough to call a spade a spade, at the cost of being seen as having been outsmarted by Chinese, coz sooner than later it's gonna come back to haunt them. Let us citizens know what the reality is, we will solemnly stand by the govt and support them come what may.

 

[patriots]

1 Recce and Support was equipped. Failure to pass the muster in the user trial conducted by the said R&S in real conditions resulted in Nag missile iteself being relegated to the proverbial bin.

The missile is too heavy, hence additional rounds needed a separate vehicle to cart it around. The said platforms in use could only carry 6 missiles.

That increased the logistics chain of a segment which needs to be highly mobile with smaller logistic tail.

DAC clearance is 2018. Am talking of 2008 onwards.

The

1 Recce and Support was equipped. Failure to pass the muster in the user trial conducted by the said R&S in real conditions resulted in Nag missile iteself being relegated to the proverbial bin.

The missile is too heavy, hence additional rounds needed a separate vehicle to cart it around. The said platforms in use could only carry 6 missiles.

That increased the logistics chain of a segment which needs to be highly mobile with smaller logistic tail.

DAC clearance is 2018. Am talking of 2008 onwards.

Bdw range of akash missile is 25 or 30

 

[Hellfire]

Such as Arjun tank.

Arjun can be used in said zone. Only due to lack of necessary supporting infrastructure is the limitation present. Road induction of the equipment can be planned. But the tech is yet to stabilize.

 

[doreamon]

Trade associations announce boycott of 3,000 Chinese products

Trade associations announce boycott of 3,000 Chinese products

A national campaign called ‘Indian goods - our pride’ has been launched to boycott Chinese goods across the country from June 10.

indianexpress.com

 

[Suryavanshi]

Arjun can be used in said zone. Only due to lack of necessary supporting infrastructure is the limitation present. Road induction of the equipment can be planned. But the tech is yet to stabilize.

Arent light tank inconvenient on High altitudes? The engine would needs to be tweaked a little to operate with low oxygen.

 

[Hellfire]

Wrote a long, redundant post but lost it so, anyways, short question to @Hellfire Saar.
Where do you feel the fate of territory lost heading?

Short answer: status quo will prevail with long drawn out deployments. Yes, there is a need, and I expect it to happen too, of all concerned to introspect and understand that there needs a major revamping in the command and control structure if we have to defend our borders. No more can organizations work autonomously and at odds with each other with army being left to hold the pail after the shit hits the fan.

Will the coming decades show us a war for the slow Chinese push to end it once and for all?
A classic "Sau Sonaar ki, ek lohaar ki" or are we so deep down the rabbit hole that the Chinese can act freely like they did here, violating treaties with impunity?

Depends on whether the Govt, in it's judgement, is serious in evicting the Chinese from the features it has occupied in the "nomansland".

 

[ezsasa]

Nitin Gokhale’s latest update..

 

[Hellfire]

I read it all mate.

Is this the reason u were pissed off at this government mate?

And also do u think this macho posturing is good if they intend to act on it?

I am not pissed off at any thing.

I merely venture to put forth an unpopular and antagonist view point based on some kind of understanding of the various facets, often at odds with each other.

I do not see much maneuvering room for the GoI, although would love to take the Chinese on over this. I see a dissociation between capability (which we have) and the will (political) of dealing with Chinese.

 

[doreamon]

we shd wait till oct .. then beat the shit out of them with hockey sticks with large number of troops . And shd make a video of it.. war cnt be fought in winter . Till next summer emergency purchases shd be done and efforts shd be there to cool down situation .

 

[Hellfire]

How are Indian and Chinese military postures at Doklam today compared to pre-2017....?
Also, as Indian and chinese forces are deployed in strength all across the LAC, and as most supplies for the few hundred thousand chinese troops and support elements come from thousands of kilometers away.. compared to the shorter Indian supply lines.. will there be any benefit for India to drag out this hightened deployment beyond winter.. And if that happens, how will China's games in SCS be affected?

A simple google map search will show you. The PLA has dug in well in Northern part of the plateau. We have ramped up our own infrastructure along our own defences. This was an area which, in 1990s, was only patrolled once in a while by either sides.

As for Chinese logistics chain, I shall urge you to understand that their logistics will be across a flat terrain albeit at high altitude. They have worked with that in mind.

We are now only playing a catch up .. in boosting our infrastructure to match the terrain we need to traverse and maximize the advantage of shorter lines of communication.

I am actually cheerful when the dark side in me imagines PLA making the mistake of attacking India in these areas. They shall be in for a drubbing of their life.

 

[Hellfire]

Now with this statement, if you visualize the current situation at LAC.

Who from IA said, if political mandate is to retake GB, so be it?
Which political personality said, a war with Pakistan will be max 7 days affair?
And who said he has received a lot of greetings from Baluchi brothers and sisters?
Who leaked that a top Baluchi nationalist wanted asylum in India?

And mind you none of this statements were made to bolster up falling political approval.

So, with respect to above questions, what kind of reaction were we expecting and what kind of actions were we prepared for?

So, if you see, we aren't the innocent kid who got trapped.

And about the statement that we are ready for 2.5 front war?

So, who is testing whose appetite?

And lastly,

India-Mongolia-Dalai Lama-China, if you remember? (2015)
Was Mongolia not expecting any retribution from China when she invited Dalai Lama?
Knowing very well how sensitive China is with Dalai Lama?

All pertinent questions which have very interesting answers.

 

[XR SAM]

Delayed Procurements Will Hurt India Against China Published June 13, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: JOYDEEP GHOSH/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG As India and China stare down each other in various locations in Ladakh and various other locations across LAC, it is all about how well Indian tiger is prepared to take on the Chinese dragon. Not only is China numerically at advantage against India, in terms of troops but its weapons systems are also vast and numerically more than that of India. Situation Add to that that the physiological advantage of having captured over 38000 sq. kms of Indian territory in Aksai Chin and being gifted 5200 sq. kms of territory in Shaksgam valley Karakoram tract by Pakistan. Not to mention the slow creeping capture of territory in Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim by first sending in the nomads to graze cattle and sheep and then moving in the troops to permanently capture the grazing lands. However, none of these make China 9 feet tall, India has the resolve and its troops have the capability to inflict not only serous damage but actually seize territory inside China occupied Tibet and China occupied Xinjiang (my previous article http://idrw.org/zorawar-singh-kahluria-dogra-general-who-conquered-ladakh-and-raided-tibet/ on Zorawar Singh who marched 550 miles into Tibet)proves if calculated and well calibrated offensive operations are launched we can give real bloody nose to China. But to affect that India needs to equip its Army and Air Force with latest weapons and systems that we are lacking. Glaring Lack of Critical Weapon System India needs to equip its Air Force and Army with numerous types of weapons and systems whose procurement plans have not been started yet. These are: – 1) Plans for IAF to procure 11 AEW & CS platforms.
2) Plans for procure 10 MRTTs.
3) plan to procure 814 155mm/52-cal MGS (Mounted Gun Systems).
4) Replace Prithvi SS-150 SS-BSMs with Pralay SS-BSMs.
5) Procure ULH (Ultra-Light Howitzers) in large numbers (at least 350-400) that can be transported by helicopters.
6) Procure Single-engine LUHs for both IAF & IA.
7) Procure 9-10 belly-mounted SAR-equipped ISTR platforms.
8) Procure turbofan-powered HALE-UAVs capable of operating on LAC.
9) Procure up to 150 attack helicopters & up to 60 CH-47F-type heavy-lift helicopters.
10) Procure troop transport planes in large numbers.
Summary All these procurements should have been completed by 2020 or some at least started by 2020. However only a couple of them have been started that too in small numbers to be effective. Add to it the building of new cantonments & ALGs (Advanced Landing Grounds) in Himachal Pradesh & Uttarakhand to house troops of IBGs (Integrated Battle Groups) that are actually part of MSC (Mountain Strike Corps) and specialize in high-altitude plateau warfare have yet to start.The absence of these critical weapons or delay in their procurement can hinder India’s defense preparedness the prospects of India mounting a credible and effective offensive or counter offensive campaign inside China occupied Xinjiang and China occupied Tibet. Hopefully all these procurements are started by 2025 and completed by 2030 only the India can think of putting a war fighting machine to counter China in the 2030s. Let’s hope for the best.

 

[garg_bharat]

With Pakistan many factors come into picture like Arab world, US & the West which obviously don't want a conflict because situation can quickly turn volatile but against China there is hardly any restriction. India can amass as much world support it wants against China with US & NATO like cheerleaders but the only thing missing is guts & fearlessness. You need spunk to kick the a** of a big enemy. I am sure if Israel had same capability like India it would have beaten China to a pulp. Whereas our leadership is still stuck with fears of 1962. This Baniya mentality of trade bla bla is also hard to let go. If we give in now we are no better than those SE Asia countries who get scared of China.

Boss cool down. We do not know the exact nature of events happening and there is no need to pass judgement.

Yup and everyone here would have called the congress traitors etc....





The problem with that is it’s never going to be the right time and why would the Chinese allow you that time? Let’s hope? Why would the Chinese retreat without achieving their aims. Seems like they hold all the cards. You have to have some leverage over an adversary, can’t pin your hope on the adversaries goodwill.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think GOI is acting with calm resolve, exactly how they should. There is no panic and no loose statements/daily briefings.

War should always be a last resort. Nothing to do with 'baniya' mentality here. Unnecessary loss of life benefits nobody.

 

[Hellfire]

We are faced with similar dilemma what Chinese thinkers faced when they fought a war over the border dispute with Russia. And hence got all the tech and support from the West. so @Hellfire might be right that our thinkers might go with this option in order to place ourselves as a power to reckon with.

But war even short one is not a best choice. We need to threat China in a way it has not been threaten ever.

I saw the rather uncomfortable reactions to this statement of yours.

People would do well to study the raison d'etre for the fall of USSR.

It was nothing other than simply driving up the costs for the defence of the Red Bear. No nation can match the monetary costs that it needs to impose on itself in order to maintain a lead in every aspect of the technological field, with advances occurring over a matter of months at times. R&D requires investment of significant amount of costs, often 'sunk costs' that result in no gains.

In Cold War, Soviet Union had to taken on a consortium of nations with US, UK, Germany, France leading industrial powers and the former technological power with Japan and Taiwan joining up by 1980s and contributing too. These are just mere examples. There were many nations that contributed to R&D and overwhelming technological superiority which were at a fraction of cost if observed as an average with respect to USSR, which was the only entity which had to lead the campaign to at least achieve a parity if not a superiority. The costs increased exponentially for USSR.

Secondly, the market access and denial to funding was an important tool too.

Interesting to note India is quietly working to stitch up an alliance with like minded nations, whose ideas are on similar lines.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

India bets on frozen food exports to tap buyers moving away from China

India bets on frozen food exports to tap buyers moving away from China

A huge opportunity has opened up mainly in east Asian nations, which are looking for alternative suppliers for frozen food, minister Harsimrat Kaur Badal said.

theprint.in

 

[Bhadra]

Agreed. The thinking within the BJP functionaries I know of, however is:

"We will hold the Chinese in their tracks. If they have taken any land compared to the status quo as of April, we will take that land back by force or go down fighting."

Which means, Modi will not let the Chinese make any territorial advances without a fight. A sincere military attempt will be made to take any lost land back.

The Chinese have made a stab at Modi's very raison d'etre (a nationalist strongman who sees India not as a 70 year old republic but a 7000+ year old civilisation). So a war will be the only way out for Modi. So far, whenever any entity (domestic opposition or foreign powers) called out Modi, they've always got a violent response. Modi is in command of a large military with short supply-lines to the front, and a vast nuclear arsenal. If anyone can bail India out of a situation like this, it's Modi.

If Modi is in command. he must say so. He must convey the message to the country and especially to China lest China thinks that whatever they did and are going to do may be acceptable to India and Modi. Such a message emanating from govt silence would be dangerous. It is not only China but a very distinct collusive strategy has emerged between the Communists of all hues from India. China, Nepal, opposition parties in India, Pakistan and anti-Hindu lobby to stab Modi and New India in its back. The country and Modi indeed are in danger of this open conspiracy.

More than stabbing Modi in the back as they did to Nehru. China has undertaken actions that clearly nullify all five agreements they have signed with India since 1993. Violating LAC, building large forces near LAC, creating new dispute points, poking in areas that been not been contentious like Galwan, China has certainly embarked upon a new path, and New Strategy.. Thereby looking back to agreements like BPTA would perhaps be futile. New waters are being tested and Modi must swim in it.

Modi must initiate the battle on internal front and external front in spite of the dangerous Corona situation. Before embarking on military action, Modi must set the synergy between all force and be aware of internal sabotage which bureaucracy is quite capable of staging.
The challenges are going to be manifold but the country belives in Modi and that belief is required to be upheld.

Under no circumstance, India should give the impression that we are ready to accept Chinese imposed LAC or accept LAC as the boundary..

 

[fire starter]

another self goal by China.

 

[Brood Father]

How does nukes help us ??

Whats point of placing nukes near the LAC ,if we use nukes near LAC the fallout will fall on us , not them , ftheir cities are a 1000km away . They have more nukes , more subs , our nukes will give us parity but thats it ,they will still continue salami slicing .

Also Pakistan destroyed their economy with the 1965 war , plus the kargil war was a debacle , i rather have "weak morale" than be living in a failed nation.

Typical coward attitude. 1965 was a near miss, if Pakistan would have captured akhnoor then it would have been good bye Kashmir
Kargil was a brilliant tactical operation and still 5353 is with Pakistan because we were coward enough not to cross LOC
I would prefer to live in a failed nation than a coward money hungry nation who cannot defend it's border

 

[Tanmay]

Delayed Procurements Will Hurt India Against China Published June 13, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: JOYDEEP GHOSH/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG As India and China stare down each other in various locations in Ladakh and various other locations across LAC, it is all about how well Indian tiger is prepared to take on the Chinese dragon. Not only is China numerically at advantage against India, in terms of troops but its weapons systems are also vast and numerically more than that of India. Situation Add to that that the physiological advantage of having captured over 38000 sq. kms of Indian territory in Aksai Chin and being gifted 5200 sq. kms of territory in Shaksgam valley Karakoram tract by Pakistan. Not to mention the slow creeping capture of territory in Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim by first sending in the nomads to graze cattle and sheep and then moving in the troops to permanently capture the grazing lands. However, none of these make China 9 feet tall, India has the resolve and its troops have the capability to inflict not only serous damage but actually seize territory inside China occupied Tibet and China occupied Xinjiang (my previous article http://idrw.org/zorawar-singh-kahluria-dogra-general-who-conquered-ladakh-and-raided-tibet/ on Zorawar Singh who marched 550 miles into Tibet)proves if calculated and well calibrated offensive operations are launched we can give real bloody nose to China. But to affect that India needs to equip its Army and Air Force with latest weapons and systems that we are lacking. Glaring Lack of Critical Weapon System India needs to equip its Air Force and Army with numerous types of weapons and systems whose procurement plans have not been started yet. These are: – 1) Plans for IAF to procure 11 AEW & CS platforms.
2) Plans for procure 10 MRTTs.
3) plan to procure 814 155mm/52-cal MGS (Mounted Gun Systems).
4) Replace Prithvi SS-150 SS-BSMs with Pralay SS-BSMs.
5) Procure ULH (Ultra-Light Howitzers) in large numbers (at least 350-400) that can be transported by helicopters.
6) Procure Single-engine LUHs for both IAF & IA.
7) Procure 9-10 belly-mounted SAR-equipped ISTR platforms.
8) Procure turbofan-powered HALE-UAVs capable of operating on LAC.
9) Procure up to 150 attack helicopters & up to 60 CH-47F-type heavy-lift helicopters.
10) Procure troop transport planes in large numbers.
Summary All these procurements should have been completed by 2020 or some at least started by 2020. However only a couple of them have been started that too in small numbers to be effective. Add to it the building of new cantonments & ALGs (Advanced Landing Grounds) in Himachal Pradesh & Uttarakhand to house troops of IBGs (Integrated Battle Groups) that are actually part of MSC (Mountain Strike Corps) and specialize in high-altitude plateau warfare have yet to start.The absence of these critical weapons or delay in their procurement can hinder India’s defense preparedness the prospects of India mounting a credible and effective offensive or counter offensive campaign inside China occupied Xinjiang and China occupied Tibet. Hopefully all these procurements are started by 2025 and completed by 2030 only the India can think of putting a war fighting machine to counter China in the 2030s. Let’s hope for the best.

Delayed Procurements Will Hurt India Against China – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

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