India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Bhadra]

Harish Khare Not Harish Salve..Big difference

Oh My.. corrected.. Thanks..
Though Harish Salve might also say the same thing..

 

[HawkisRight]

Oh My.. corrected.. Thanks..
Though Harish Salve might also say the same thing..

I doubt Harish Salve has issues with ITBP

 

[Tridev123]

The points you made are definitely worth considering. But what will Amit Shah brings to the table? Bureaucracy is deep rooted in Indian defence politics. He certainly though will not become anybody's puppet but his skill set is limited too. Parrikar was best in the business I guess & it is a pity we lost him. He had great analytical skills. Rajnath looks more like a stop gap & the one that PM trusts.

Thinking of changing the Defence Minister is a panic reaction. We need to keep a few points in mind.
1.The main and culpable failure was in intelligence. Military Intelligence, R & AW and possibly IB all failed to anticipate the Chinese taking advantage of an so called military exercise to execute their nefarious plans. They swiftly shifted the forces stationed for the military exercise to the border points of ingression. We did not detect it. Human intelligence/assets in the PLA proved ineffective.
2.The Indo - China border is not manned metre by metre by either the PLA or the Indian Army/CAPF. Unlike the Indo - Pakistan border. So it is very easy at most lengths of the border to make an unexpected assault at platoon or even company level and occupy land belonging to the other side.

In normal conditions the other side has the option of countering the manoeuvre by occupying the opponents land at a place of his choosing. It can be accomplished in a short time frame. The message is - if you can do it, I can also.

But in this instance it seems our Army was not given the permission to do a tit - for - tat. The Army can only be faulted for intelligence failure. What the Chinese did was not any grand success. How difficult is it to occupy a small piece of land by subterfuge. If it were Pakistan our Army would have grabbed twice or even thrice the amount of land on the other side.
We are dealing with the Chinese with velvet gloves. The Government probably has its reasons. No Government( be it the past Congress ones also) has adopted an aggressive posture towards China. If we had a Congress Government today their reaction would not have been very different. Perhaps we are waiting for the right time to take on China as an equal. Right now let's hope tension reduces and the Chinese retreat.

 

[dumdumdum]

Is that true what Harish Khare has written and suggested in the wire. I have gained the notoriety in time and again suggesting synergy between all agencies that deal with an external threat - MoD, MEA, MHA etc.
The present circumstance demand that all the lethargic forces connected with LAC be kicked very hard and brought in line to ward off this menace rather than IPS. MEA and MoD running their own empire without unison.
Well, guys, I found a supporter....

Yes a supporter in Harish Khare who even MMS found to be incompetent & hence fired him. The view is published in The Wire...

 

[Bhadra]

I doubt Harish Salve has issues with ITBP

The issue is with National Security management architecture and all agencies working on that ... all have issues..
The issue with Army is that it does has not have force matrix to conduct a two front war// The issue with IAF is that it has no aircraft.... The issue with RAW and IB is that they are unable to gather intelligence, the issue with CAPF is that they all want to be commandos in uniform but police in deeds.. They want pay and perks better than Army but are happy guarding bungalows, bridges and stores... the problem with IPS is that they think they can never work under anyone..
There are problems galore and not work, no results..

One boss may bring them together... so far all PMs have failed to do so.

 

[scatterStorm]

I seriously feel we should widen Siliguri corridor through Nepal. Time has come now enough of this Commie bulls**t.

its just provocation strategy, if we did something, we will be targeted as aggressor. Its CCP pulling strings.

 

[Longewala]

The issue is with National Security management architecture and all agencies working on that ... all have issues..
The issue with Army is that it does has not have force matrix to conduct a two front war// The issue with IAF is that it has no aircraft.... The issue with RAW and IB is that they are unable to gather intelligence, the issue with CAPF is that they all want to be commandos in uniform but police in deeds.. They want pay and perks better than Army but are happy guarding bungalows, bridges and stores... the problem with IPS is that they think they can never work under anyone..
There are problems galore and not work, no results..

One boss may bring them together... so far all PMs have failed to do so.

So to summarise

Army / Air force,: tragic heroes with "no aircraft" (20+ squad of sukhoi, mig, mirage) and no "force matrix" (1.1 million troops, 4000 tanks etc)

Non army: "PMs failed...RAW and IB unable to gather intelligence.....CAPF happy guarding bungalows, bridges and stores... IPS can never work under anyone.."

 

[cereal killer]

Thinking of changing the Defence Minister is a panic reaction. We need to keep a few points in mind.
1.The main and culpable failure was in intelligence. Military Intelligence, R & AW and possibly IB all failed to anticipate the Chinese taking advantage of an so called military exercise to execute their nefarious plans. They swiftly shifted the forces stationed for the military exercise to the border points of ingression. We did not detect it. Human intelligence/assets in the PLA proved ineffective.
2.The Indo - China border is not manned metre by metre by either the PLA or the Indian Army/CAPF. Unlike the Indo - Pakistan border. So it is very easy at most lengths of the border to make an unexpected assault at platoon or even company level and occupy land belonging to the other side.

In normal conditions the other side has the option of countering the manoeuvre by occupying the opponents land at a place of his choosing. It can be accomplished in a short time frame. The message is - if you can do it, I can also.

But in this instance it seems our Army was not given the permission to do a tit - for - tat. The Army can only be faulted for intelligence failure. What the Chinese did was not any grand success. How difficult is it to occupy a small piece of land by subterfuge. If it were Pakistan our Army would have grabbed twice or even thrice the amount of land on the other side.
We are dealing with the Chinese with velvet gloves. The Government probably has its reasons. No Government( be it the past Congress ones also) has adopted an aggressive posture towards China. If we had a Congress Government today their reaction would not have been very different. Perhaps we are waiting for the right time to take on China as an equal. Right now let's hope tension reduces and the Chinese retreat.

I agree with all your points especially the first one that was bang on (some action needed there). I don't know what is the reason we are so reluctant to take on the Chinese bully regardless of who is in power. In Doklam we took a stand & gave a massive hit to China geopolitically. For all we know China may be plotting a revenge after that & after revocation Article 370 they had to do something. DSDBO is a direct threat to Karakoram Highway besides India is already eyeing GB. I think this is all power posturing & they are trying to keep India in defensive position. The current government has made lot of noise regarding these issues Let's see whether they walk the talk. Because if we give in now then mission PoK will just be a fantasy & rhetoric like all these years.

 

[Bhadra]

So to summarise

Army / Air force,: tragic heroes with "no aircraft" (20+ squad of sukhoi, mig, mirage) and no "force matrix" (1.1 million troops, 4000 tanks etc)

Non army: "PMs failed...RAW and IB unable to gather intelligence.....CAPF happy guarding bungalows, bridges and stores... IPS can never work under anyone.."

Certainly... IAF has 31 squadrons against 45 sanctioned ... that too for one front scenario ... that certainly is an issue.. Army has almost same structure post 1971 but threat scenarios have completely changed.. that is a major issue..

CAPF has more than 5oo battalions but not trained for wars... how can that not be an issue..

Why would intelligence failure not occur when entire intelligence setup In the country is used for political intelligence..

 

[Indrajit]

We are dealing with the Chinese with velvet gloves. The Government probably has its reasons. No Government( be it the past Congress ones also) has adopted an aggressive posture towards China. If we had a Congress Government today their reaction would not have been very different.

Yup and everyone here would have called the congress traitors etc....

Perhaps we are waiting for the right time to take on China as an equal. Right now let's hope tension reduces and the Chinese retreat.

The problem with that is it’s never going to be the right time and why would the Chinese allow you that time? Let’s hope? Why would the Chinese retreat without achieving their aims. Seems like they hold all the cards. You have to have some leverage over an adversary, can’t pin your hope on the adversaries goodwill.

 

[HawkisRight]

Interesting points about doklam
Chinese playbook of 2 steps forward 1 step back..I think same is happening now in ladakh

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

We have sats which can map 3d surface on moon and Mars with exact mess vector plus all the techno infra, ultra, xray but we don't have for earth

Chalo no issue let china plays it's tarot card it holds we will see how their fengshu is to be taken by our Vasthu

 

[Bhadra]

Thinking of changing the Defence Minister is a panic reaction. We need to keep a few points in mind.
1.The main and culpable failure was in intelligence. Military Intelligence, R & AW and possibly IB all failed to anticipate the Chinese taking advantage of an so called military exercise to execute their nefarious plans. They swiftly shifted the forces stationed for the military exercise to the border points of ingression. We did not detect it. Human intelligence/assets in the PLA proved ineffective.
2.The Indo - China border is not manned metre by metre by either the PLA or the Indian Army/CAPF. Unlike the Indo - Pakistan border. So it is very easy at most lengths of the border to make an unexpected assault at platoon or even company level and occupy land belonging to the other side.

In normal conditions the other side has the option of countering the manoeuvre by occupying the opponents land at a place of his choosing. It can be accomplished in a short time frame. The message is - if you can do it, I can also.

But in this instance it seems our Army was not given the permission to do a tit - for - tat. The Army can only be faulted for intelligence failure. What the Chinese did was not any grand success. How difficult is it to occupy a small piece of land by subterfuge. If it were Pakistan our Army would have grabbed twice or even thrice the amount of land on the other side.

I think to keep military intelligence out of it as they have neither the mandate nor resources for external intelligence.

The issue here is not related to The Chinese grabbing the land like thieves nor building over an area for last six months but right across the patrol points and in the vicinity of Indian posts. The Chinese openly building a force of 10000 troops in forwarding areas can hardly be hidden.

We are dealing with the Chinese with velvet gloves. The Government probably has its reasons. No Government( be it the past Congress ones also) has adopted an aggressive posture towards China. If we had a Congress Government today their reaction would not have been very different. Perhaps we are waiting for the right time to take on China as an equal. Right now let's hope tension reduces and the Chinese retreat.

Preparations to meet the Chinese threat is under action and visible only in terms of building infrastructure that too due to the personal interest taken by the PM.

Otherwise, there is no preparation for taking on China seriously. The MCS remains stunted. There is no progress and urgency in procurement of armamnets. OFB is proceeding on strikes.. DRDO is busy in some fancy projects to materialise after sixty years.. MHA is busy raising more CAPF battalions.. Army is busy in restructuring and reducing manpower...
I do not see any readiness whatsoever.

During my numerous interactions with power that be I was amazed to hear arguments like " We are not going to fight any war ... there will be no war (as if that was a favour enemy was doing to them) but Police, you see. is required every day.." (of course they did not explain that poilice is required every day for their protection, for rigging polls, manipulating votes, booth capturing, putting their opponents behind bars, extortion, hafta, CBI cases, political espionage and almost all political and criminal activities so vital for the survival of all-powerful people)

But they do not know that the day there is a war - entire country and their empires will be at stake ... and that the war can only be averted if Defence Forces are strong capable of avoiding a war..

 

[Indrajit]

The current government has made lot of noise regarding these issues Let's see whether they walk the talk. Because if we give in now then mission PoK will just be a fantasy & rhetoric like all these years.

Mission PoK? This government couldn’t even buy a 1000 pieces of artillery in 6 years, even when it was available locally. Would have made a lot of difference in the present situation. Tough talk on Pakistan comes easy, we need to have the muscle to deal with things of this nature. A border skirmish should have always been factored in, both with Pakistan and with China and possibly both at the same time.. Where are your big guns if you want to fortify both sides. Even if the Chinese go back, the world will know we didn’t exactly put up. No matter what spin we put on it.

 

[indiatester]

Certainly... IAF has 31 squadrons against 45 sanctioned ... that too for one front scenario ... that certainly is an issue.. Army has almost same structure post 1971 but threat scenarios have completely changed.. that is a major issue..

CAPF has more than 5oo battalions but not trained for wars... how can that not be an issue..

Why would intelligence failure not occur when entire intelligence setup In the country is used for political intelligence..

Sir, poor armed forces of a poor nation sir. They need to figure out best response in the limitations that all of us are under.

The senior armed forces officer have often said they will fight with what they have. Most of us civilians also do the same. Regardless of all limitations, we strive and improve., Other sectors have somethings to show off... be it IT services, automobiles, healthcare, banking, disaster management, food security, space etc etc.

All have come some way ahead. The expectation is that the defense ecosystem also does the same.
All of us realize that if all countries attack India simultaneously, we are seriously screwed. The 45 sanctioned squadrons may not be of use even then.

We need to be realistic. We are already No.3 in defense expenditure in the world. As a country, we don't expect to have a expeditionary force. We just need to be able to defend ourselves effectively. Inspite of having all this, do you mean our forces are incapable of protecting us?

 

[Jailor]

Yup and everyone here would have called the congress traitors etc....

And for good reason, since they would have silently backed down giving free territory to Chinese without a peep out of anyone like they had done many times in past,

While this government owned up and counter occupied the Chinese territory hence, the chinese butt hurt coming out via print, wire, quint, scroll, shuklas, sawhneys and the cyber commie minions constantly talking out of their ass and trying to imply equal equal between 26/11 government and this government.

 

[Floydian]

Some clarity from Col. Shailendra Singh (retd) on the mystery of the fingers at Pangong Tso lake.

 

[Jailor]

This government couldn’t even buy a 1000 pieces of artillery in 6 years

But it still made Chinese virus party tuck its tail between its leg and run off in dokhlam I mean what's their hundreds of tanks, stealth aircraft numerical superiority for?

Couldn't even fire a single round, a single bullet, maybe they need more soup made out of tiger balls to feel man enough according to their ancient Chinese "medicine"

 

[ram singh तोपची]

 

[captscooby81]

The entire standoff was made to become a cluster fuck situation first by the chinese move and second by the handling of the situation by the govt .

People here are saying chinese put the govt in a sticky situation or pushed to a corner . No they just did only 20 % of that rest 80 % came from the constant spin denial created by govt and put itself in that situation

Chinese occupied the land claimed by us what could have govt done they could have simply told chinese made temporary camps in the locations claimed by us but never occupied this one simple sentence would have taken so much burden from govt's back .

Instead govt thought people don't have the right to know what's happening and it control the narrative so it can keep saying there is no troops in our claimed area and china first leaked the video and then released the picture and people started picking up satellite pictures and started tearing govt's claim slowly . Govt should have acted sensible at this stage instead it let another bunch of morons like that mitra to push again narrative that there is no chinese troops in our claimed territory

Govt move after move put itself in the situation what it is today . why did they do it ? god knows may be someone in govt thought they don't want to look like outsmarted by chinese

If you want public on your side you have to build narrative . At time of Pulwama govt kept building that public narrative by the pictures of the attack location the coffins and every day slowly built the pressure inside public asking for a revenge . Now look at current standoff as govt said no territory is occupied no citizen is even worried that much and going on buying realme and xioami in flash sales and moving on with their lives

Two things are getting clear GoI is in no mood for any action this much is becoming slowly clear by blowing peace very early govt has shown its intention for de-escalation and not any mood for escalation .The message we are getting from COAS to RM is we are not in mood for any escalation

How will the govt justify military action suddenly after claiming for a month there is nothing to worry in the region and all is in our control , if they start an action now they will have to justify that they are reclaiming back the area lost in 1962 in that case people will ask why only few fingers and one valley why not the entire region of aksai chin ?

Too much of dumb babugiri has screwed the govt today , If you look at the statements its coming from MEA and not from MoD as usual IFS babus would have assured the govt that they will resolve the issues with their peking peers peacefully and restore the status quo so don't blow the war bugle and wake up the public and govt listened to that and got itself in quick sand situation where its feeling now that its going down faster .

And i personally feel a jolt like this is very badly needed now you either take modernisation seriously or just simply stop doing any spending on defence and go ahead with all your freebie socialist schemes for which there is no shortage of freeloader in this country keep winning elections on that plank and don't bring national security as your forte again if its going to be handled by the same peking parrots in MEA.

Look how things changed 2016 Surgical strikes . Press briefing was done by DGMO Lt.gen Ranbir singh, 2019 Balakot who did the press briefing it was from MEA why was a babu need to explain about military action ?
were the targets any different 2016 terrorist launch pads 2019 terrorist camps both inside another country territory . But why for one you choose Armed forces to explain and for another you left it to babudom ?