India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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another_armchair

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China is always looking for a fight. But a fight may not be in India's interest!

India is running 20 years behind China in socio economic conditions. There is no point in fighting in Ladakh if that breaks the bank and impoverishes your people.

See war is a last resort. Today's war is very expensive. No point fighting a war without clear objectives.
What does one do when your aggressive neighbor takes over the area you perceive as an extension of your porch and makes unreasonable demands while pointing a gun to your head? He is not willing to take a no for an answer.

Will you capitulate or will you fight to save your home and self respect?

Germany and Japan were almost razed to the ground after WW-2 and both Soviets and Allies took their share of war booty.

They rose from the ashes and rebuilt their nations. There are times when war is inevitable.

Russia and Europe lost millions. We start beating our chests and blame Army, Govt, Police, weather, God ... when we lose a couple of men in an encounter.

If we don't have the stomach for a fight, we should simply sign away our so called sovereignty and become another star in the US/PRC flag.

Years from now you will sit back and wonder how India was balkanized without a bullet being fired.
 

Blue Water Navy

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I think a lot of systems have already been changed to limit the impact of cyber attacks. Websites are vulnerable but an attack on a website does not necessarily mean it can cripple a bank.

I have no direct knowledge of Electric grids but I think it is unlikely. India may not have fully automated grid.
It doesn't matter whether the grids are fully automated or not. Because systems have many fail safe on each and every level. As I said stealing information, getting your data (which is also a very big deal if you ask me) is one thing launching a cyber attack such as crippling the grid and other what nots are another level. Even if you have the skills still you will just lack the resources.
 

mokoman

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It doesn't matter whether the grids are fully automated or not. Because systems have many fail safe on each and every level. As I said stealing information, getting your data (which is also a very big deal if you ask me) is one thing launching a cyber attack such as crippling the grid and other what nots are another level. Even if you have the skills still you will just lack the resources.
I think our power plants / grid stations maybe "air gaped" not connected to other networks (like our nuclear power plants) but so were the Iranian facility, the attack however was passed via USB drives .

The worm also "broke" the fail safes which is why they could do such damage .

:notsure: I guessing the Chinese already have come up with a game plan to paralyze our similar industrial infrastructure . Probably also reason why we established "Defence Cyber Agency" last year .
 

garg_bharat

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What does one do when your aggressive neighbor takes over the area you perceive as an extension of your porch and makes unreasonable demands while pointing a gun to your head? He is not willing to take a no for an answer.

Will you capitulate or will you fight to save your home and self respect?

Germany and Japan were almost razed to the ground after WW-2 and both Soviets and Allies took their share of war booty.

They rose from the ashes and rebuilt their nations. There are times when war is inevitable.

Russia and Europe lost millions. We start beating our chests and blame Army, Govt, Police, weather, God ... when we lose a couple of men in an encounter.

If we don't have the stomach for a fight, we should simply sign away our so called sovereignty and become another star in the US/PRC flag.

Years from now you will sit back and wonder how India was balkanized without a bullet being fired.
India will fight when it becomes necessary. I have no doubt.

But let us not fight for nothing.
 

Bhadra

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Sir I had given and passed the AFMC exam and interview.
And probably u should know that someone who could crack it and rank amongst the 110 in the country who made it there,sure read the rules prevailing then.
As for living in Lala land..many feel the same about you..Muh Army is the only good thing..rest all are fools!
Yes you Definitely is in Lala Land if you do not know that AFMC is meant to take in people for Defence Services who otherwise is hard to get by from the civilian sources. That is why it has its preference and system of merit. It is not a public institution or a public university. Those who pass out from there are bound to serve in the Defence Forces under binding rules and difficult conditions. If some quota exists there for the wards of Defence Forces it has its purpose AN an incentive. That does not make them IAS or IPS under quota but simply doctors in Armed Forces in permanent commission. Which your reservation type doctors from good medical college are not willing to join.

In all countries over the world, lots of incentives exist to join the Armed Forces. And here you are feeling jealous about AFMC which is hardly an incentive but a preference. Ask any MBBS from Christian Medical college if he wishes t go to the USA or join AFMS. Then you will see the reality of life. AFMC is by far a better institution than that.

Equating that with quota system is surely ignorance and prejudicial.
 
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Bhadra

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Why Amit Shah Should Take Charge of the Defence Ministry As Well


“Extreme problems require extreme solutions” may be an overused cliché, but we do have an extreme situation on the India-China border. Even the most friendly and moderate media voices concede that we’ve had the most serious military stand-off with the Chinese since 1962. We need an extraordinarily extreme man to fix the Chinese for making extraordinary efforts to send infiltrators into New India.

We need a new Raksha Mantri.

Most strategic experts will readily concede that in recent years, our optimal pursuit of maximum national security has been critically weakened because we have had an unfortunate string of inadequate defence ministers. Starting with A.K. Antony (compulsively indecisive ), Arun Jaitley (part-time), Manohar Parrikar (unwell, unexcited, un-engaged), Nirmala Sitaraman ( fish out of water), and, now, Rajnath Singh, a mofussil man, locked in the political rhetoric of 1990s. And they all have one common trait: they have all been reactive.

Rajnath Singh may once have been a senior political figure but is now completely without any weight. The rise of Yogi Adityanath in Uttar Pradesh has been so choreographed as to hack away whatever clout the defence minister may have once had. And, the generals, always good at reading the political leaves, do not take him seriously. Nor can he take them on for the Chinese ingress into our territory. The Krishna Menon precedent need not necessarily be re-activated but surely everyone agrees we need a change of guard at the Ministry of Defence.

We need to convert our current adversity into an opportunity to give “New India” a proactive, activist, and perhaps interventionist defence minister. And Amit Shah is the very man for the moment.


He is tough, even tougher than the prime minister. And, what is more, he can easily handle defence in addition to his current responsibility at North Block. In fact, he is today quite underworked as he has fulfilled all the promises the BJP made in its 2019 manifesto, that too in just one year. In any case, home is a status-quo ministry and as home minister, Shah has ensured that the juggernaut of coercion and control remains well-oiled. His surplus energy and time can thus be better utilised in South Block rather than getting squandered in virtual rallies for a no-contest in Bihar, so many months away.

Whereas the Chinese have posed a-here-and-now challenge that needs to be dealt.

China’s Galwan valley grab is designed to weaken us psychologically and damage our morale. As it seeks an assertive global role for itself, Beijing wants to deter India from its resolve to become a ‘vishwa guru’.

True, the Chinese leadership may have a civilisational claim to Sun Tzu, but we also have the historical heritage of Chanakya. And, Amit Shah has more than once proven himself to be the rightful legatee of that heritage. Repeatedly, the best and the brightest among our media have anointed him ‘Modern-day Chankaya.’

It helps that Amit Shah has two other qualities: he is obsessed with infiltrators and is a ‘nibbler’ par excellence. If Chinese infiltrators can nibble our territory, we also need to have a minister who is adept at the art of nibbling. A man who can nibble Congress MLAs in state after state can be confidently relied upon to start playing the nibbling game with the Chinese. It is an enterprise that admits of no restraint, no moral qualms, and no second thoughts.
 

Indrajit

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Ok, let's see what the issues are and why it's going to be sticky for us.

As we know, in April 2018, PM Modi informally met with President Xi in Wuhan. This was after the 2017 Doklam crisis. Both sides agreed that they would ‘cooperate with each other’ and not be rivals. But according to China, India has reneged on that consensus. The Chinese are not happy at what India is doing which is 'against their supreme national interest'.

They cite instances of betrayal which includes:

1. India’s growing strategic footprint in support of the Indo-Pacific strategy.

2. The Quad dialogue meant to contain China.

3. A host of bilateral trade issues where they think India has acted against the interests of Chinese companies keen on business in India; ostensibly at the behest of the US.

4. Revocation of Art 370 in August 2019 and the legal change made to J&K when it was divided into two separate Union Territories of Jammu-Kashmir and Ladakh. As we are aware, China had protested, saying that the creation of the UT of Ladakh has altered the status quo. However, unmindful of China’s protests, the HM Amit Shah declared in parliament that Aksai Chin was part of the Ladakh UT. External affairs minister Jaishankar tried firefighting and to explain to Beijing that the new constitutional status of Ladakh had not changed things on the ground but that did not assuage the Chinese leadership.

5. In the midst of all this, PM Modi in a virtual summit with Australian PM Scott Morrison raised the level of bilateral relations – giving a fillip to the Quadrilateral Dialogue and the Indo-Pacific strategy, which pissed off Beijing. This led to a further hardening of positions between China and India at the diplomatic and military level talks.

And Galwan will be the bone of contention as it dominates the road to DBO which poses a threat and jeopardises PLA's future plans for the Karakoram Pass and to other objectives in Ladakh. We need to be prepared for the long haul.
With all due respect, this is all complete bs. They have been doing this for years, what reason did they invent then?
 

Bhadra

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Why Amit Shah Should Take Charge of the Defence Ministry As Well


The idea of the same man presiding over the home and defence ministries may not be all that palatable to the Lutyens lobby but it is an idea whose time has come. India needs to think out of the box on how to bring about maximum symbiosis between the tools of internal security and the instruments of external security. We need the strategic convergence of four Ss, as Modi might put it: Shakti (strength), Suraksha (security), Samanvaya (harmony) and Samajhdari (insightfulness). The man to bring about this convergence is Amit Shah.

He will bring to the job a raw energy. He will know how to make the generals respect the political leadership. Perhaps the corrosive juglabandi between mediocre ministers and mediocre generals will finally be disrupted.

And there is more. Amit Shah brings in an uncluttered clarity. If violence is deemed to have a curative, beneficiary effect at home – in taming opponents as well as in firing up the partisans – then, why should we be so squeamish about the use of force against our national enemies?

As home minister, Amit Shah had, on August 5, 2019, undone one of Jawaharlal Nehru’s follies, Article 370; now, he can be tasked with the responsibility for undoing the consequences of Nehru’s greatest folly – of trusting the Chinese. He is perhaps the only man who has the Chankayan cunning to divine the adversary’s deepest design and then to move to neutralise the enemy’s ill-intent.

An additional benefit – perhaps a totally intended consequence – of a joint home-defence minister will be that Amit Shah would take on the role of India’s security czar. He will acquire a decisive voice in the conceptualising and conducting of our foreign policy. And that may not be all that bad, because it would put an end to the undeserved and unnecessary importance the Ministry of External Affairs gets accorded in our scheme of things

The new India has to recognise that it is time to drain out the Nehruvian politeness that has got institutionalised in the MEA’s organisational blood-stream. This effete mandarinate thinks that etiquette and protocol are a solution to an aggressive China. Too much importance is attached to diplomacy; it got us nowhere with Islamabad, and finally it was only surgical force that made the Pakistanis read the message on the Modi wall.

In recent times, the prime minister has repeatedly and earnestly assured the nation that it is time to take bold reforms. A new Raksha Mantri, a new Security Czar is the boldest reform possible. It will send an unmistakable and unambiguous message across to all of India’s enemies, internal and external.
 

Blue Water Navy

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I think our power plants / grid stations maybe "air gaped" not connected to other networks (like our nuclear power plants) but so were the Iranian facility, the attack however was passed via USB drives .

The worm also "broke" the fail safes which is why they could do such damage .

:notsure: I guessing the Chinese already have come up with a game plan to paralyze our similar industrial infrastructure . Probably also reason why we established "Defence Cyber Agency" last year .
I highly doubt that Chinese are going to do anything like it. Even if they do perform I doubt their success.
 

Arihant

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Wrote a long, redundant post but lost it so, anyways, short question to @Hellfire Saar.
Where do you feel the fate of territory lost heading?
Will the coming decades show us a war for the slow Chinese push to end it once and for all?
A classic "Sau Sonaar ki, ek lohaar ki" or are we so deep down the rabbit hole that the Chinese can act freely like they did here, violating treaties with impunity?

I often wonder about what you said, and it's always a joy to see your thoughts put in words by other people who don't know you at all.
This is probably the only reason I'll always err on the pro-war side.
Some traits and sentiments can never be inculcated without war and with rhetoric in an otherwise oblivious era of prosperity. A war weary crowd is still far, far dangerous and motivated than a nationalistic but divided society like ours because they'll do everything to never be caught on the backfoot, costs be damned.

USSR failed and Russia nearly collapsed into an economic hole it still hasn't recovered from, yet today, when Putin says "We'll rise to our former glory", it gives a cold sweat to the paper pushers in pentagon, no matter how unlikely it may seem, with a barely one percent growth an year and a demography that is from all estimates, dying out of old age and lack of youth.

On the other hand, if Modi or any other Indian leader reminisces on the return of the "Sone ki Chiriya" (bird of gold) status of India, there'll be some heartless applause and an inner smirk by our rivals.
No one believes India to be a threat other than this hellhole (even by third world standards) which literally was formed by *gasp* snatching our OWN DAMN TERRITORY and even they have the audacity to START the aggression and end it many a times as well.

Everyone knows that our economic sheen will easily be disrupted by pulling the strings on every Jaichand that breathes in India.
I say, let us slug it out. Let us start a two front war or two point five or every other name you can think of.
Bring the draft for critical skills workers when you run out of them, let internal militias handle the .5 factor of war (never forget success stories of Ikhwans, Salwa Judum etc) and then some. Let everyone go into their own war.
For once, take the fight to them.
Let the nationalistic 20 year old with the whatsapp status of "Indian Army 💪🏼💓", the local Abdul puncturewala, the South commie, the one kid who has trouble speaking to strangers, the guy who keeps putting feminine videos on Tik tok, let them all go into the deep just once.
Some will rat out their comrades, some will outright abandon posts, some will turn turncoats, some will run to foreign countries to seek asylum from the "undemocratic coercions", nationalists will turn liberals, liberals will turn nationalists, humanists will become masochist, many will die or be scarred for life, but for once, please, let this society purge itself of this syndrome that I just can't see, but can not unsee either.
To hell with sensibilities if they do nothing but handicap you while the enemy runs amok. To hell with "neutral approach" to "enemy victory or dominance" when you're not going to act on it.

Our damn history is full of literally genocides after genocides with the latest being no more than 30 years ago and we still have the shamelessness to talk of the effectiveness of "sensible approach" and "cool heads".
Let me tell you, the only damn reason we're still here is because of the atrocious high fertility rate we bred with, but there will come a time when you cannot outbreed the threat and it will come soon as you watch the curtains fall on this great, boastful inheritors of Indus Valley 'civilization'.

I'm sorry, but for once, let the people fight the People's Liberation Army and we'll see who liberates whom.
I love the Army, but I seriously doubt the tenets of our Democracy when it restricts the protection of the very things it seeks to bring to the masses. Moments like these make me question if we have price tag on everything and a spine of our own.
If you're to sell the idea of this nation to the people, you better be ready for the customers to own it.
Let us own it.

Sorry for the rant.

TL.DR: I lost it. Sorry about that.
Not today then tomorrow the situation will become like that. It is better to solve many problems like intelligence, knowing the real enemy or enemies is very important, what will be needed to defeat them and their pawns, all preparations are needed and if possible kill their core network quietly before, facing that situation becomes inevitable. In all these situations it is very necessary to force the enemies to come in open and do rogue things openly not once but again and again till these things will open eyes of "Sekhulars" (This word is correct). This is long war to establish India as world leader but These Chinna pappas and babus think that war is one way game where not a single soldier of ours will die and Some politician will say in press conference "O China you dare not come to our territory and they will run away like puppies, cats " Marvel fans always thinks like that. Same is with the doomsday predictors they think we are born to defeat. Bhai thand rakh. take example For thousands of years we were divided in small kingdoms that time too,few larger armies came and got defeated by few kings. This time it is united India with bigger Military than ever. Even though We will be defeated in one sector we will gain in another. This dhoti shivering will not work for long, time is not for when these dhoti shivering people have to WELD dhoti around their waist and start to fight. Change your way of thinking if not circumstances will.
 

cereal killer

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Why Amit Shah Should Take Charge of the Defence Ministry As Well


The idea of the same man presiding over the home and defence ministries may not be all that palatable to the Lutyens lobby but it is an idea whose time has come. India needs to think out of the box on how to bring about maximum symbiosis between the tools of internal security and the instruments of external security. We need the strategic convergence of four Ss, as Modi might put it: Shakti (strength), Suraksha (security), Samanvaya (harmony) and Samajhdari (insightfulness). The man to bring about this convergence is Amit Shah.

He will bring to the job a raw energy. He will know how to make the generals respect the political leadership. Perhaps the corrosive juglabandi between mediocre ministers and mediocre generals will finally be disrupted.

And there is more. Amit Shah brings in an uncluttered clarity. If violence is deemed to have a curative, beneficiary effect at home – in taming opponents as well as in firing up the partisans – then, why should we be so squeamish about the use of force against our national enemies?

As home minister, Amit Shah had, on August 5, 2019, undone one of Jawaharlal Nehru’s follies, Article 370; now, he can be tasked with the responsibility for undoing the consequences of Nehru’s greatest folly – of trusting the Chinese. He is perhaps the only man who has the Chankayan cunning to divine the adversary’s deepest design and then to move to neutralise the enemy’s ill-intent.

An additional benefit – perhaps a totally intended consequence – of a joint home-defence minister will be that Amit Shah would take on the role of India’s security czar. He will acquire a decisive voice in the conceptualising and conducting of our foreign policy. And that may not be all that bad, because it would put an end to the undeserved and unnecessary importance the Ministry of External Affairs gets accorded in our scheme of things

The new India has to recognise that it is time to drain out the Nehruvian politeness that has got institutionalised in the MEA’s organisational blood-stream. This effete mandarinate thinks that etiquette and protocol are a solution to an aggressive China. Too much importance is attached to diplomacy; it got us nowhere with Islamabad, and finally it was only surgical force that made the Pakistanis read the message on the Modi wall.

In recent times, the prime minister has repeatedly and earnestly assured the nation that it is time to take bold reforms. A new Raksha Mantri, a new Security Czar is the boldest reform possible. It will send an unmistakable and unambiguous message across to all of India’s enemies, internal and external.
The points you made are definitely worth considering. But what will Amit Shah brings to the table? Bureaucracy is deep rooted in Indian defence politics. He certainly though will not become anybody's puppet but his skill set is limited too. Parrikar was best in the business I guess & it is a pity we lost him. He had great analytical skills. Rajnath looks more like a stop gap & the one that PM trusts.
 

Arihant

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India's engineering exports fell drastically in April; China & Singapore manage positive growth :frusty:

In April whole Country was in strict lock down. No work was done other than essential services. China and Singapore both countries were open.
 

Bhadra

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Is that true what Harish Khare has written and suggested in the wire. I have gained the notoriety in time and again suggesting synergy between all agencies that deal with an external threat - MoD, MEA, MHA etc.
The present circumstance demand that all the lethargic forces connected with LAC be kicked very hard and brought in line to ward off this menace rather than IPS. MEA and MoD running their own empire without unison.
Well, guys, I found a supporter.... :)
Some important paragraphs are quoted again...
******************

* The idea of the same man presiding over the home and defence ministries may not be all that palatable to the Lutyens lobby but it is an idea whose time has come. India needs to think out of the box on how to bring about maximum symbiosis between the tools of internal security and the instruments of external security. We need the strategic convergence of four Ss, as Modi might put it: Shakti (strength), Suraksha (security), Samanvaya (harmony) and Samajhdari (insightfulness). The man to bring about this convergence is Amit Shah.

* An additional benefit – perhaps a totally intended consequence – of a joint home-defence minister will be that Amit Shah would take on the role of India’s security czar. He will acquire a decisive voice in the conceptualising and conducting of our foreign policy. And that may not be all that bad, because it would put an end to the undeserved and unnecessary importance the Ministry of External Affairs gets accorded in our scheme of things.

* The new India has to recognise that it is time to drain out the Nehruvian politeness that has got institutionalised in the MEA’s organisational blood-stream. This effete mandarinate thinks that etiquette and protocol are a solution to an aggressive China. Too much importance is attached to diplomacy; it got us nowhere with Islamabad, and finally it was only surgical force that made the Pakistanis read the message on the Modi wall.
 
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Arihant

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I think our power plants / grid stations maybe "air gaped" not connected to other networks (like our nuclear power plants) but so were the Iranian facility, the attack however was passed via USB drives .

The worm also "broke" the fail safes which is why they could do such damage .

:notsure: I guessing the Chinese already have come up with a game plan to paralyze our similar industrial infrastructure . Probably also reason why we established "Defence Cyber Agency" last year .
In any network End User is the culprit. If USB is allowed inside Nuclear power plants or research centers on core network then leave all the things Bhagwan bharose. I am sure that in those sensitive networks all removable storage is blocked. I have seen even small companies block removable storage devices.
 

Shashank Nayak

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Is that true what Harish Salve has written and suggested in the wire. I have gained the notoriety in time and again suggested synergy between all agencies that deal with an external threat - MoD, MEA, MHA etc.
The present circumstance demand that all the lethargic forces connected with LAC be kicked very hard and brought in line to ward off this menace rather than IPS. MEA and MoD running their own empire without unison.
Well, guys, I found a supporter.... :)
Some important paragraphs are quoted again...
******************

* The idea of the same man presiding over the home and defence ministries may not be all that palatable to the Lutyens lobby but it is an idea whose time has come. India needs to think out of the box on how to bring about maximum symbiosis between the tools of internal security and the instruments of external security. We need the strategic convergence of four Ss, as Modi might put it: Shakti (strength), Suraksha (security), Samanvaya (harmony) and Samajhdari (insightfulness). The man to bring about this convergence is Amit Shah.

* An additional benefit – perhaps a totally intended consequence – of a joint home-defence minister will be that Amit Shah would take on the role of India’s security czar. He will acquire a decisive voice in the conceptualising and conducting of our foreign policy. And that may not be all that bad, because it would put an end to the undeserved and unnecessary importance the Ministry of External Affairs gets accorded in our scheme of things.

* The new India has to recognise that it is time to drain out the Nehruvian politeness that has got institutionalised in the MEA’s organisational blood-stream. This effete mandarinate thinks that etiquette and protocol are a solution to an aggressive China. Too much importance is attached to diplomacy; it got us nowhere with Islamabad, and finally it was only surgical force that made the Pakistanis read the message on the Modi wall.
A satirical piece..
 

Bhadra

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The points you made are definitely worth considering. But what will Amit Shah brings to the table? Bureaucracy is deep rooted in Indian defence politics. He certainly though will not become anybody's puppet but his skill set is limited too. Parrikar was best in the business I guess & it is a pity we lost him. He had great analytical skills. Rajnath looks more like a stop gap & the one that PM trusts.
We all know what ails Indian system of functioning- bureaucratic disjointedness, apathy, non-cooperation and onemanupship. We have tremendous capacities and capabilities. Look at ITBP itself- the IB guys think it is their personal security Guard, Their IPS boss thinks it is police force meant to guard banks in Chandigarh. MHA babus think it is their personnel help for homes in Delhi and the Army guys think it is disjointed force, The ITBP guys demand payslip to equate his status and then goes crying to Supreme court. This is only an example involving one single agency.

Think if one man is the boss he will damn well find the solution and sort out all that bullshit. Imagine 300 CAPF getting militarised in one or the other form. Leave Ladakh , India will threaten Tibet. Amit Shah must give a big bamboo to all and bring them in line.

We are not ready to improve ourselves but are ready to beg USA. What kind of people are we ??
 

HawkisRight

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Is that true what Harish Salve has written and suggested in the wire. I have gained the notoriety in time and again suggesting synergy between all agencies that deal with an external threat - MoD, MEA, MHA etc.
The present circumstance demand that all the lethargic forces connected with LAC be kicked very hard and brought in line to ward off this menace rather than IPS. MEA and MoD running their own empire without unison.
Well, guys, I found a supporter.... :)
Some important paragraphs are quoted again...
******************

* The idea of the same man presiding over the home and defence ministries may not be all that palatable to the Lutyens lobby but it is an idea whose time has come. India needs to think out of the box on how to bring about maximum symbiosis between the tools of internal security and the instruments of external security. We need the strategic convergence of four Ss, as Modi might put it: Shakti (strength), Suraksha (security), Samanvaya (harmony) and Samajhdari (insightfulness). The man to bring about this convergence is Amit Shah.

* An additional benefit – perhaps a totally intended consequence – of a joint home-defence minister will be that Amit Shah would take on the role of India’s security czar. He will acquire a decisive voice in the conceptualising and conducting of our foreign policy. And that may not be all that bad, because it would put an end to the undeserved and unnecessary importance the Ministry of External Affairs gets accorded in our scheme of things.

* The new India has to recognise that it is time to drain out the Nehruvian politeness that has got institutionalised in the MEA’s organisational blood-stream. This effete mandarinate thinks that etiquette and protocol are a solution to an aggressive China. Too much importance is attached to diplomacy; it got us nowhere with Islamabad, and finally it was only surgical force that made the Pakistanis read the message on the Modi wall.
Harish Khare Not Harish Salve..Big difference
 
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