India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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mist_consecutive

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India must be facing series of Chinese cyber attacks as we speak. Non contact warfare is the modern age warfare. I dunno where we stand in that capability because that is the real threat which we are going to face. Just imagine Northern Grid failing during this pandemic, how many patients will die because ventilators will not be working.
Not sure if trolling or genuine concern. Assuming goodwill, cyber-attacks cannot cripple power grid. Power grid core components are either mostly analog, manually operated, or within the intranet (no access to the internet).

Cyberwarfare is overrated and portrayed as an omnipotent power where a nerdy-looking college kid can somehow take down an entire government by slamming his fingers on a small laptop.

Cyberwarfare is slow and oftentimes its just denial of service (you cannot access what you want because millions of bots are overloading it). You often need massive computation powers and hours of time to break through a system. Even after if you can break into a system, most you can do is copy/steal information.

Defacing/destroying/disabling a system is often just not possible, and even if it is, it's quite reversible.

TLDR - We can deal with cyber attacks. Our cyber-warfare (mostly freelancers, few groups work with govt. occasionally) is among the best in the world,.
 

Waanar

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Wrote a long, redundant post but lost it so, anyways, short question to @Hellfire Saar.
Where do you feel the fate of territory lost heading?
Will the coming decades show us a war for the slow Chinese push to end it once and for all?
A classic "Sau Sonaar ki, ek lohaar ki" or are we so deep down the rabbit hole that the Chinese can act freely like they did here, violating treaties with impunity?
Personally I am for war , even if we lose land , because in future if I learnt my lesson well I will fuk Yunnan forget Tibet .

Some things cannot be explicitly discussed in public

But let me put it this way

Conflicts allows the population into becoming something more than they will ever be. Instinct of survival is the only motivation that will ever bring the best out of any population. If harvested and managed properly sky is the limit.
I often wonder about what you said, and it's always a joy to see your thoughts put in words by other people who don't know you at all.
This is probably the only reason I'll always err on the pro-war side.
Some traits and sentiments can never be inculcated without war and with rhetoric in an otherwise oblivious era of prosperity. A war weary crowd is still far, far dangerous and motivated than a nationalistic but divided society like ours because they'll do everything to never be caught on the backfoot, costs be damned.

USSR failed and Russia nearly collapsed into an economic hole it still hasn't recovered from, yet today, when Putin says "We'll rise to our former glory", it gives a cold sweat to the paper pushers in pentagon, no matter how unlikely it may seem, with a barely one percent growth an year and a demography that is from all estimates, dying out of old age and lack of youth.

On the other hand, if Modi or any other Indian leader reminisces on the return of the "Sone ki Chiriya" (bird of gold) status of India, there'll be some heartless applause and an inner smirk by our rivals.
No one believes India to be a threat other than this hellhole (even by third world standards) which literally was formed by *gasp* snatching our OWN DAMN TERRITORY and even they have the audacity to START the aggression and end it many a times as well.

Everyone knows that our economic sheen will easily be disrupted by pulling the strings on every Jaichand that breathes in India.
I say, let us slug it out. Let us start a two front war or two point five or every other name you can think of.
Bring the draft for critical skills workers when you run out of them, let internal militias handle the .5 factor of war (never forget success stories of Ikhwans, Salwa Judum etc) and then some. Let everyone go into their own war.
For once, take the fight to them.
Let the nationalistic 20 year old with the whatsapp status of "Indian Army 💪🏼💓", the local Abdul puncturewala, the South commie, the one kid who has trouble speaking to strangers, the guy who keeps putting feminine videos on Tik tok, let them all go into the deep just once.
Some will rat out their comrades, some will outright abandon posts, some will turn turncoats, some will run to foreign countries to seek asylum from the "undemocratic coercions", nationalists will turn liberals, liberals will turn nationalists, humanists will become masochist, many will die or be scarred for life, but for once, please, let this society purge itself of this syndrome that I just can't see, but can not unsee either.
To hell with sensibilities if they do nothing but handicap you while the enemy runs amok. To hell with "neutral approach" to "enemy victory or dominance" when you're not going to act on it.

Our damn history is full of literally genocides after genocides with the latest being no more than 30 years ago and we still have the shamelessness to talk of the effectiveness of "sensible approach" and "cool heads".
Let me tell you, the only damn reason we're still here is because of the atrocious high fertility rate we bred with, but there will come a time when you cannot outbreed the threat and it will come soon as you watch the curtains fall on this great, boastful inheritors of Indus Valley 'civilization'.

I'm sorry, but for once, let the people fight the People's Liberation Army and we'll see who liberates whom.
I love the Army, but I seriously doubt the tenets of our Democracy when it restricts the protection of the very things it seeks to bring to the masses. Moments like these make me question if we have price tag on everything and a spine of our own.
If you're to sell the idea of this nation to the people, you better be ready for the customers to own it.
Let us own it.

Sorry for the rant.

TL.DR: I lost it. Sorry about that.
 

IndiaRising

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If what hellfire says is correct, then it would only be in India’s interest to forge a greater alliance with the US. If concessions have to be made, I would rather that India give them to US than China. Chinese won’t stop their randi rona in the future. Today, they claim galwan valley as theirs, tomorrow they will claim Leh as well. Chinese only understand brute strength.
If a military option does not seem to yield favorable results, then we will have to face reality and seek help from US, even if it means being projected as their vassal state for a while . Use that time to build up our own military preparedness to a level where China cannot dare to carry out such adventures again.

PS: I am just basing my statement on hellfire’s arguments. However, I don’t believe he is fully correct, but that’s another issue.
 

garg_bharat

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If what hellfire says is correct, then it would only be in India’s interest to forge a greater alliance with the US. If concessions have to be made, I would rather that India give them to US than China. Chinese won’t stop their randi rona in the future. Today, they claim galwan valley as theirs, tomorrow they will claim Leh as well. Chinese only understand brute strength.
If a military option does not seem to yield favorable results, then we will have to face reality and seek help from US, even if it means being projected as their vassal state for a while . Use that time to build up our own military preparedness to a level where China cannot dare to carry out such adventures again.

PS: I am just basing my statement on hellfire’s arguments. However, I don’t believe he is fully correct, but that’s another issue.
India does not have to be a vassal. I think tech and equipment support can see us through.
 

abhay rajput

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If what hellfire says is correct, then it would only be in India’s interest to forge a greater alliance with the US. If concessions have to be made, I would rather that India give them to US than China. Chinese won’t stop their randi rona in the future. Today, they claim galwan valley as theirs, tomorrow they will claim Leh as well. Chinese only understand brute strength.
If a military option does not seem to yield favorable results, then we will have to face reality and seek help from US, even if it means being projected as their vassal state for a while . Use that time to build up our own military preparedness to a level where China cannot dare to carry out such adventures again.

PS: I am just basing my statement on hellfire’s arguments. However, I don’t believe he is fully correct, but that’s another issue.
The million dollar question is - will we ever be able to escape from the trap laid by USA.?
 

Indx TechStyle

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Exactly that's what I am saying. It took p5 nations a lot of test to perfect nuclear bombs and people think we can do that in just few test. I mean people should remember that we are still creating 1960s tech like slbm . I personally believe that even NORTH KOREA have more bigger, smaller, and proven bombs.
P5 didn't have simulation abilities in 1960s what India has access to in 2010s.
 

Indrajit

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The million dollar question is - will we ever be able to escape from the trap laid by USA.?
You say this as if we have a lot of choices, the point I'm not sure about is whether the US is willing to do anything now. I have been pointing out the china threat even when a few members have fantasized about a China-India-Russia axis against the US.

I had an inkling of what's has been happening the last few weeks but @Hellfire 's blunt laying it out as it is painful to swallow. We seem to learn nothing from history, even recent history. Depressing.
 

garg_bharat

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The million dollar question is - will we ever be able to escape from the trap laid by USA.?
USA is also trapped. They have huge trade imbalance with China. Plus China is doing a lot to contain and challenge power of USA.

BUT internal politics of USA does not favour India. We need to keep this in mind. This is in contrast to Russia as Russian people consider Indians friends. While Russian government may not support India but Russian people are genuinely interested in friendly relations.
 

garg_bharat

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All Indians must realize that India has to fight on its own internal strength which is considerable. Our situation is similar to USSR in second world war. USA did send a lot of material help to USSR but it was primarily their industry and their men which ultimately resulted in their victory.
 

abhay rajput

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You say this as if we have a lot of choices, the point I'm not sure about is whether the US is willing to do anything now. I have been pointing out the china threat even when a few members have fantasized about a China-India-Russia axis against the US.

I had an inkling of what's has been happening the last few weeks but @Hellfire 's blunt laying it out as it is painful to swallow. We seem to learn nothing from history, even recent history. Depressing.
First of hellfire has already confirmed that we are also in no man's land. But the problem here is that no man's land was always ours .
As far as USA is concerned , they have there own agenda with us. Bottom line is that we had 2 decades to improve our military and strategic capabilities and we didn't did anything even after Kargil. I guess we deserve this and let's hope our policy makers wake from there sleep after this. Similar thing happened in 2012/2013 which was quite big and Congress govt. Just bend on its knees . I can't tell you the whole story, let's just say it's one of the best kept secret in India.
 

Indrajit

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First of hellfire has already confirmed that we are also in no man's land. But the problem here is that no man's land was always ours .
As far as USA is concerned , they have there own agenda with us. Bottom line is that we had 2 decades to improve our military and strategic capabilities and we didn't did anything even after Kargil. I guess we deserve this and let's hope our policy makers wake from there sleep after this. Similar thing happened in 2012/2013 which was quite big and Congress govt. Just bend on its knees . I can't tell you the whole story, let's just say it's one of the best kept secret in India.
You get the point that we have asked for this, 6 years into Modi's term - he has no excuses but even you feel compelled to explain. Look at the excuses man, its no man's land......congress bent its knees.... This is Indian land we are talking about, not Congress or BJP land. If during the UPA, more land was lost, it makes even more inexplicable Modi's behavior with the Chinese. Like that land was the UPA's problem, so let's woo Xi, then do Wuhan later. Forget the land lost, let's try and cajole the Chinese not to take more during this term....The Chinese must be laughing at us, after all, they can just say it was Nehru's fault, UPA's fault, Modi's fault for provoking China by removing Art.370....and we have enough cheerleaders who will console themselves with that. Our loss of territory, no matter what our own mistakes are, is China's doing and we must never forget that. China is not and never will be, our friend. Rahul Gandhi is an ass but on the evidence, clearly so is Modi. Except that Rahul Gandhi is a joke and nobody trusts him with anything, this country has reposed its trust with Modi, twice and it is on him to stand up and deliver. We have had leaders with feet of clay before, we don't need another.

Leaders will come and leaders will go. If we don't defend our national interest, it would be a disservice both to our ancestors and to our children. Modi was voted in for a reason, not just so that he could be a PM and do nothing. It's painful to see this.
 

tarunraju

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Why is that the government won't take action against chinese troops do we fear that the battle will not go our way if that is not the case then what.
Well, why aren't they firing then?

And to test your theory that "they can accomplish territorial advance without firing," you only need to trace the road to DBO. We too made advances they couldn't do jack about.
 

garg_bharat

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You get the point that we have asked for this, 6 years into Modi's term - he has no excuses but even you feel compelled to explain. Look at the excuses man, its no man's land......congress bent its knees.... This is Indian land we are talking about, not Congress or BJP land. If during the UPA, more land was lost, it makes even more inexplicable Modi's behavior with the Chinese. Like that land was the UPA's problem, so let's woo Xi, then do Wuhan later. Forget the land lost, let's try and cajole the Chinese not to take more during this term....The Chinese must be laughing at us, after all, they can just say it was Nehru's fault, UPA's fault, Modi's fault for provoking China by removing Art.370....and we have enough cheerleaders who will console themselves with that. Our loss of territory, no matter what our own mistakes are, is China's doing and we must never forget that. China is not and never will be, our friend. Rahul Gandhi is an ass but on the evidence, clearly so is Modi. Except that Rahul Gandhi is a joke and nobody trusts him with anything, this country has reposed its trust with Modi, twice and it is on him to stand up and deliver. We have had leaders with feet of clay before, we don't need another.

Leaders will come and leaders will go. If we don't defend our national interest, it would be a disservice both to our ancestors and to our children. Modi was voted in for a reason, not just so that he could be a PM and do nothing. It's painful to see this.
Are you ready to fight in Ladakh?

I do not want to blame Congress too. The decision to fight or not for a certain land is a complex decision based on a realistic estimate of the value of that land and the costs involved.

The unsettled border of India/China will be settled eventually and an effort to do it peacefully has been on for quite some time.

This situation too is also being sorted through dialog; but recent behaviour of China suggests that things may not work out. So India should be ready for military option.
 

abhay rajput

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You get the point that we have asked for this, 6 years into Modi's term - he has no excuses but even you feel compelled to explain. Look at the excuses man, its no man's land......congress bent its knees.... This is Indian land we are talking about, not Congress or BJP land. If during the UPA, more land was lost, it makes even more inexplicable Modi's behavior with the Chinese. Like that land was the UPA's problem, so let's woo Xi, then do Wuhan later. Forget the land lost, let's try and cajole the Chinese not to take more during this term....The Chinese must be laughing at us, after all, they can just say it was Nehru's fault, UPA's fault, Modi's fault for provoking China by removing Art.370....and we have enough cheerleaders who will console themselves with that. Our loss of territory, no matter what our own mistakes are, is China's doing and we must never forget that. China is not and never will be, our friend. Rahul Gandhi is an ass but on the evidence, clearly so is Modi. Except that Rahul Gandhi is a joke and nobody trusts him with anything, this country has reposed its trust with Modi, twice and it is on him to stand up and deliver. We have had leaders with feet of clay before, we don't need another.

Leaders will come and leaders will go. If we don't defend our national interest, it would be a disservice both to our ancestors and to our children. Modi was voted in for a reason, not just so that he could be a PM and do nothing. It's painful to see this.
My pont was what happened in the past. Not Congress or BJP. Problem is not only political parties but also our babus and institutions which have given us NSA like Shivshankar Menon. And remember that even if we all that lost land can be reclaimed as it was never accepted by us. To this day it is still disputed like Tibet, Arunachal Pradesh , aksai chin and shaksgam valley. And please don't make it political we all know which govt. Has more guts . And lastly there is no capture of territory. Chinese were present In no man's land since the start of this century at finger 5. What they are doing is that they are now stopping us for patrol beyond f4 by deploying some troops at heights. We bypassed there temporary post at F5 through height directly upto f7 last year. We took some heights where we will be at advantage in no man's land. So tit for tat is going on. The only problem here is that disputed part of territory was always on our side from our perspective.
 

Indrajit

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Well, why aren't they firing then?

And to test your theory that "they can accomplish territorial advance without firing," you only need to trace the road to DBO. We too made advances they couldn't do jack about.
Why wouldl they, they are getting things their way, even if creeping. Let's not do the ostrich thing.
 

Bhadra

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LOL all blaming the others' while conveiniently forgetting the quota the fauji kids get.
You live in a Lala Land. You should have read the govt orders on the subject. There was indeed some concession of one or two percent or one odd seat in educational institutions for the wards of defense personnel killed or wounded in action and some gallantry award winners. But then the Police forces militated and bumped into that so-called quota and virtually snatched that away from them. Now the so-called quota is for Defense forces and central govt police forces on a competitive basis. due to many advantages enjoyed by wards of Police personnel including a lot of black dirty income, residence in metros. etc they enjoy the so-called quota.

Besides half of CAPF are ST.ST and OBC already a birthright privilege class. But they also intruded into that meagre defence quarto.

I suggest that you look into the data .

By raising that question you have shown the level of your ignorance, the prejudices you are subjected to as also the level o poison you have against the Defense Forces.
 

Bhadra

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I would value any day army brat like Major Mariappan saravan or captain Vijayant thapar or Major Vivek Gupta . Than someone like me who is not wearing the uniform and serving the forces . But want to grab his father's rank and file to push his political views or opinions . If I have a point to make on a topic I would do it on my own basis rather throw a point and tag my father's group captain rank to add more value to it . I am pointing to those type of brats . remember That girl with placard who said Pakis didn't kill my father but bullet did ?

I never thrown my father's rank anywhere in my 15 years of career to push a point . Neither I ever did it here in this forum in last 4 years .

It's my father's rank he earned it with his sweat and blood . I have no fucking rights to claim it to push my opinions
Fine, but what is the point you are making in the context of this thread?
Do you mean to suggest The Army brats Invited China to occupy Indian Territory...
 
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