India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[WARREN SS]

I think India should now conduct series of major nuclear tests after completing necessary border infrastructure. Anything less than that will not work.

MIRV is he way forward And HRV
We have Enough DATA from 1998 that We can use To do improvement in warhead design Through Scalable computation & computer simulation predictions of explosions.

 

[right wing]

And to veterans and army men here,yes we are proud of you and u are very brave folks who have to work in very challenging conditions.
But to blame the govt DRDO itbp politicians and every other person but the army for ills at the border today is a bit funny.
We the common folks have seen how many men in uniform have also stymied each and every Desi project of mention,had junkets with aman Ki asha gang,have actively participated in advisory groups to give up Siachen,continue to get caught in massive scams and kickbacks.
Plus we have likes of ajai and sahwney as veterans themselves and many others.
So it will also be better for veterans to do some soul searching before blaming everyone but themselves and continuing their agendas at the cost of truth.
This applies to others also in the forum and at large ..be it scientists analysts police men or doctors like me.

 

[Hellfire]

Deploy Marcos and they will take care of the amphibious assualt.

At max, MARCOS can conduct an amphibious demonstration or a raid. Assault is a different ball game.

An assault is a different exercise altogether and the lake neither has the space to concentrate forces for 'boarding' the LCMs nor has the width to be abke to maneuver effectively in face of land based and waterborne defenses of the enemy forces.

Theoretically you can launch an amphibious brigade into Pangong Tso, but practically, you simply do not have the space.

 

[right wing]

Current government has done more that all previous govts combined including the fool vajpayee .

Why do you think most veterans are with the government

Problem is currently we have too much " problems " as a nation

There are 3 parties to this situation

1. Government which wants to win
2. Indian national congress which wants to win by any means possible
3. China which wants to win

Got my point

Government got trapped and is has kind of run out of options

Jaichands jindabad

Hardly so! And the man at the helm is famous for not getting trapped.
But even otherwise I will call your reading of the crisis as too panicky.
If I present the problems of China,it is in a far bigger mess.
But that's it big nations have such issues.

 

[right wing]

I am saying what entire media and country is saying.. that constables of ITBP were beaten blue and 72 of them were hospitalized.. ... you are saying it is not
Then what is the whole Hungama about ???
If a terroritry is being denied to our troops by preventing their movement I do not what you call that ..
Indians are saying .... Chinese have captured it. Chinee are saying the territory belongs to them...
The end result is a common-sense which you are refusing to accept...
Compiling about ITBP is but natural ... entire country is saying they have not done their jo and gifted land at Paengang Tso, Galwan, Gorga, Hot spring and DBO area.
All of that comes in the area of responsibility of ITBP...??
Now what do you want - that I should blame the Indian Army and BSF for it...

You mean no one there has even the courage to own up and accept responsibility... ??? That is too bad..

And who are you to register or not register the complaint not made to you... It is National affair....

I have told a number of times for me the greater issue is the better and efficient management of LAC and coordination amongst all agencies involved in that. The state of affairs with ITBP is well known to all, But you are trying to insist upon defending indefensible and hide open secrets ....

I answered a query on facts and not fancy... I will keep complaining till the situation with respect to the efficient management of LAC does not materialize.. That is my right and I consider that as a duty too. It is you who is constantly complaining..

Again sir your entire point of 72 men getting beaten up is source based news being fed frm two men.

 

[porky_kicker]

Hardly so! And the man at the helm is famous for not getting trapped.
But even otherwise I will call your reading of the crisis as too panicky.
If I present the problems of China,it is in a far bigger mess.
But that's it big nations have such issues.

Matter of perception , I operate on the principle of " worst case scenario " because that is what responsible leaders on whose shoulders responsibility of millions of lives stands would operate on

But if your perception is right , bro tumare mo me ghee shakar but end of the day you and me and our perceptions are not worth the salt . Those in power their perception matters most .

Due to covid , I lost the ability to afford a underwear , goli maro my perceptions
That reminds me , any body wants my cv ?

 

[Hiranyaksha]

MIRV is he way forward And HRV
We have Enough DATA from 1998 that We can use To do improvement in warhead design Through Scalable computation & computer simulation predictions of explosions.

I will leave which major weapons that bring serious threats to existence of world peace should be tested to the experts but if we fail to test and to prove our capabilities now, we will then end up being minion in this power game.
Chinese have targeted our credibility. This is the time to question theirs, by any method deem fit. By pushing back PLA or any other means which China experts can suggest.
US is pressurizing us and trying to make us their sidekick by USCIRF comments and attempting to negotiate on behalf of India to China, Solution: Do not give into US pressure - test the major weapons !

Testing series of major weapons will prove that we are not to be fucked with.

 

[utubekhiladi]

it is sad how this media industry milks money by running such filthy debates. here is the SOP for the media nowadays

- pick a topic related to national emergency, crisis, disaster, or even twist the comments of well known public figures and make it controversial. (believe me, i been on both sides of such shows during howdy Mody!)

- pick two speakers in favor and two not in favor (mostly they follows a pre-scripted debate and the speakers are usually non-productive individual due their age or he is part of some kind of NGO or an activist or an retired professional who is looking to make some extra cash and some one who probably didnt do a damn thing during active life)

- let them fight by raising audibles

- the editing team does the rest before the final broadcast. the editing team is where real money is made. they edit and keep the comments that best suits their program sponsor and trim out the stuff that does not get TRP even though its may be truth or fact. for example: if your facts and truth is not going to get trp or twitter trending then they are going to edit it out. this is where the marketing team comes in. (every seconds of broadcast cost in lakhs)

- pay some cheap celebrities or public figures to tweet in support or against those broadcast.

i have been on both sides and let me tell you. it doesn't matter what you debate.. media ethics goes out the door.

 

[cereal killer]

So what, our "export" to them is raw material. Let them get it some where else - we will see if they succeed.

Are u kidding ban on export means our people will lose billions. Dude u need to do some fact checking.

 

[ezsasa]

Absolutely agree here.



You have not understood what I have been pointing at. Let me bore you a bit. Apologies.

1. Chinese need to secure their flanks in face of what they sense is an opportunity that is fast slipping from their fingers - of using COVID19 Chinese Virus distraction to secure its interests more firmly against littoral states. For this, they need to force India to the negotiating table.

2. An India which is at peace with China is more useful for them than an antagonist one. I may be wrong and China may restore status quo ante - provided they get major forms of concessions from GoI. That could happen, but that is remote. They want to secure/insure against Indian actions in general area GB and what they perceive, and in no less enabled by our fanboys and OSINTs, is an 'Indian interference in Baluchi struggle'.

3. The best way to get India to negotiations table is encouraged/selected leaks of "large tracts of territories held by China" in order to force the GoI to act. The action left open for GoI, in their calculus, would be negotiations, which makes sense even for me (although now am more convinced than ever before to use force against them).

4. As long as the present status quo remains in affect, China is getting all it wants from this standoff. A GoI which is on the backfoot (let us accept one fact, for all his silliness, RaGa does throw enough nonsense so frequently that quite a few right sane people also end up believing him. In an era where its a fashion to disbelieve the leadership, you can appreciate what a nightmare it is).

5. Even if, due to some perceived political compulsion Mr Modi is forced to order IA to evict them, they are prepared to fight a limited war in order to still head for negotiations.

6. And we have a no first use as has China, for nukes. So, out of calculus. For this situation.


Well, India is the only one who can take them on. If we decide to lug it out, we may take some hits initially, but we will push them back and then some. It will be tough, costly in terms of manpower and material/economy, but we can not only hold our own but also push them back.

My only scepticism stems from a significant members of our leadership, both political and military/security forces, believing and convinced that we shall not be able to do so. And that can cost us the initial reverses that I talk of.

I have at least some faith in the present RM, who is ridiculed for being 'Kadi Ninda' but knows when he needs to act tough while speaking softly. PM is a different man. He won't back out of a fight. But he is not a dictator either.

Sorry Mate... I don't see the signs of a limited war yet.. if i see it later, i sure will change my opinion.
There are no signals from CCP either, heat in terms of rhetoric goes up as the D-Day approaches, in this case heat is coming down. chinese media seems to be re-focussing on HK.

 

[abhay rajput]

1. We won't. If we have to fight a war, we won't lose territory if we are willing to go for the long haul. That is one big issue. Our politicians and bureaucrats will have us sue for peace quickly.

2, 3, 4. Don't be a Pakistani fanboy please. My request.

5. Yep. None. But our civil leadership is a bunch of ......




OLD MAN???

1- I am pretty sure this govt. Has more guts compared to Congress. After all with 40 soldiers lost we did balakot but when 26/11 happened we lost 150+ and nothing happened. And in doklam we have seen this govt. Can at least put a long haul.
2,3,4 - my only point is that until your adversary know you have H Bomb capabilities , it doesn't meant anything. I know for sure we had bosted weapons and I am pretty sure you knows too but when indian nuclear scientist who were part of 98 test say that our nuclear bomb was fizzled and did failed. S.k. Sikka who I believe is the father of H bomb did say we have it . But when your own scientist and the world doubt it becomes quite difficult to believe. Nonetheless we can't have deterrence with China with 25kt proven nukes. and 100-200kt unproven yield. Simple opinion of an engineer ..
Bottom line.

 

[Niks_12]

Guys, let's be respectful and civilized. Whatever @Hellfire wrote - is his opinion and we should respect that. Nothing stops us from doing our own reading, analysis and sharing the same. Not having a jingoistic view of things doesn't make one a coward or anti-national.

@Hellfire - What do you feel should be India's options? Specially, if this incident plays out for long. I am sure GOI will be under constant attack for ceding territory from the likes of Shooklaw and the Congoons. Any concession from India will be seen as a sign of weakness, leading to further political capital loss for the BJP. At the same time, removing the Chinese by force doesn't seem to be an option.

 

[Hellfire]

With all due respect for Hellfire sir..I do not find much logic to this point that our forces taking aggressive positions in Grey area is also our loss,because its our area.

You have not got what I said.

I will humbly give my two points on this.
Claimed area yes,but certainly we did not dominate it earlier...so how is it a loss?
And secondly by that logic any standoff with China is our loss because we claim entire aksai chin while they sit on it.

Yes. You are missing the political costs. That decides whether the Govt stays or not. It is what will dominate in the press. And you can package anyways you want, but China moving into no mans land means we, sans a military action, end up accepting their new positions. Not acceptable to me.



PS: You are thinking like a rational thinker. Not like the common Indian. It is the latter who votes.

 

[M.J.K]

Recall the powerful images of coffins post-pulwama, all of us knew something WILL happen from that point on. This time no such "powerful" messaging so far.

News media has made such a bad habit of high rhetoric on pakistan related things that they have raised the bar on messaging, what indian public is seeing is nothing different from usual pak targetted rhetoric.

I agree there is no such comparable message yet .
News media may be reason govt don't want to show all their cards yet.otherwise we will be forced to go to war or loose face ,both are not good but at the same time if we prepare public we loose the element of surprise.Wouldn't it be better not to mobilise public but show them a tactical victory to start.

 

[Hellfire]

Sorry Mate... I don't see the signs of a limited war yet.. if i see it later, i sure will change my opinion.
There are no signals from CCP either, heat in terms of rhetoric goes up as the D-Day approaches, in this case heat is coming down. chinese media seems to be re-focussing on HK.

I said prepared for limited war. Not moving into one.

 

[porky_kicker]

One of the best conversations I had in a long time in dfi

Thank you everyone

Good night

Subtle reminder , my cv is still available

 

[Hellfire]

@Hellfire - What do you feel should be India's options? Specially, if this incident plays out for long. I am sure GOI will be under constant attack for ceding territory from the likes of Shooklaw and the Congoons. Any concession from India will be seen as a sign of weakness, leading to further political capital loss for the BJP. At the same time, removing the Chinese by force doesn't seem to be an option.

This is the most important battle that India needs to win as a nation. Unfortunately, we are right now barely scraping through.

Personally, I feel that we will stick and stay put. No draw down. Publicly it may be claimed, as Dokalam. But beefing up of forces on either side will take place significantly, as at Dokalam today.


Lets see how this works out.

 

[right wing]

You have not got what I said.




Yes. You are missing the political costs. That decides whether the Govt stays or not. It is what will dominate in the press. And you can package anyways you want, but China moving into no mans land means we, sans a military action, end up accepting their new positions. Not acceptable to me.



PS: You are thinking like a rational thinker. Not like the common Indian. It is the latter who votes.

May be but elections are far too away and public bays for Pakistani blood and views china anyway as far more powerful than it is.
That actually gives the govt son elbow room to do the staring down if needs be.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

This is the most important battle that India needs to win as a nation. Unfortunately, we are right now barely scraping through.

Personally, I feel that we will stick and stay put. No draw down. Publicly it may be claimed, as Dokalam. But beefing up of forces on either side will take place significantly, as at Dokalam today.


Lets see how this works out.

Even I am thinking that India will proclaim a victory as in Dokalam. But in reality losing the territory in the long run and let it slide under the carpet to bide it more time.

 

[Knowitall]

This is the most important battle that India needs to win as a nation. Unfortunately, we are right now barely scraping through.

Personally, I feel that we will stick and stay put. No draw down. Publicly it may be claimed, as Dokalam. But beefing up of forces on either side will take place significantly, as at Dokalam today.


Lets see how this works out.

Why is that the government won't take action against chinese troops do we fear that the battle will not go our way if that is not the case then what.