India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[rock127]

don't read and trust anything published by thewire.

Also add The Print, Scroll, randiTV etc.

In foreign sources it's NYTimes,Washington post, HuffPost etc.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Also add The Print, Scroll, randiTV etc.

In foreign sources it's NYTimes,Washington post, HuffPost etc.

BBC and CCN's websites also do damage. So, add them too.

 

[Yeloblu]

I don't know for sure but as I heard in the news. GOI has also talked to Israel for this.

We already have our Uttam AESA , Almost cleared.

 

[Bhadra]

I’m afraid lessons for civilians during this round of military escalation is same as the last time post Balakot strike...

Firstly I appreciate your very valid concern on the subject of prime importance that should have been recognized and utilized as a "Force Multiplier" by the National Security managers especially the Armed Forces.

We suck at PR management, too many Jai Chands within who are systematically creating spins internally to confuse the hell out of people..

My Dear Sir, have you heard of a Class A as also class B Service in India called IIS who are recruited through all India Civil Service Examination (Allied Services) and posted as bureaucrats with all ministries. Govt spends a very hefty sum on them and they occupy post of JS and Addl Secy equivalent in ministry. Instaed of taking up a noble cause such as "Media Warfare" - those white elephants have been singularly responsible for the death of DD. All India Radio and all govt media channels. Have you seen even a single PIB release of MoD during this entire period? Like all bureaucrats, they are the worst lot taken from the bottom of the list but develop worst of the egos and have worst of the bureaucratic traits.

Coming on the Army, who made efforts in that direction but those are not Good enough. The media managers there do not know a head or tail of media. An NDA boy or BHU graduate who knows about two guns is not expected to. They are neither trained nor provided long tenures under ADGPI. Many other efforts like asking journalist to attend some Army Course, organizing Media Seminars, Talks on Media management etc are not good enough. IIMC must hold courses of minimum of three months for offers posted with ADGPI. Defence officers if trained well and exposed well are very capable people.

Defence Reportage is a very special beat. Just look around all of them are either ex faujies or sons/daughter of Faujies including Nitin Gokhale. All names like Shiv Aroor, Vishnu Som, Sawant etc have Fauzi background. Others who venture into that field turn to be utter failure.

This time same as last time it was Shukla & Shawney, aided by many other publications.

We are a democracy where constructive criticism has a place and destructive criticism can be handled by the system. That applies to all spheres of life. Engineering strikes, communal roots, Urban revolts, anti-system propaganda, anti-national writings are all equally destructive. Dissent can not and should not be suppressed.

Their exposures are also required.

Unless Indian security establishment does not come up with some kind of penalty system Both for news media & individuals, who know what mess these jai Chands will create during a more serious situation some time in the future. It need not be something illegal, i am sure it can be done within the confines of the law.

The question is directly related to the foundations of our polity and the Constitution which guarantees certain fundamental rights. There are laws to deal with traitors, anti-nationalism, treason and other such crimes. Brings them to the law and let law deal with them.

and second lesson is the penchant of “experts” to tackle the narrative individually, and none of them are capable of building a smart counter-narratives.

The narratives have a purpose and most of the narrative are political. Hardly any narrative is pure treason. The inability of building a counter-narrative is the fault or weakness of the system, the elites, polity and the society for whom Military Matters has no importance. Indian elites having highest stakes in the system is essentially anti-military. has no participation in military liabilities, look down upon military and even mistreat the military. The deliberate efforts of our Muslim and British masters made over thousands of years to keep Indians off the military and destroy Indian military class is now debilitating our strategic perspectives and our military institutions. We have to security doctrine, no perspective and no vision as elites do not consider it necessary until they lose the nation once again.

How can you build counter-narrative when you do not know the subject. These so called experts take advantage of it. This is the state of affairs of a society who's two greatest epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are War manuals.

as we know TV channels Suck at pro-India narrative building.

Yes, if you cal Galwan River as Galwan Lulla - the state of affairs can be understood.

This time counter narrative rested solely on Nitin Gokhale, as far as I can see. No body else created fresh set of inputs other than him.

True. Nitin Gokhale was able to present an Ex - Colonel who busted the balloon. Credit must equally go to him for his courage of Conviction as hundreds besides him knew where are the fingers but chose to remain quiet out of their sense of official confidentiality responsibility.

if “experts” can set their egos aside and collaborate, it would be of great help. and it’s very simple, all they need to do is get into a structured debate in groups of 4 or 5 and release a paper highlighting the narrative for others to use. If there is no consensus within the group, don’t release the paper until a consensus is Formed of the ideas within the groups. this has to happen before 3 pm of following day, and by 5 pm the NOTE has to be put on social media. If more groups work on the same objective, more chances of well thought out narratives coming out. If they want to commercialise this, it’s fine but don’t expect returns from year one itself.

The answer can make me sound very critical and pessimist yet again.

A fine institution like IDSA under MoD which used to encourage retired and serving Defense officers was first taken over by IAS lobby and then by Foreign Service mandarins. The result - IDSA started churning out official propaganda and has lost all value in academia.

USI - another academic institution started by the British Defence Officers - is dying due to lack of patronage and funds.

Other Institutes like CINJAWS etc are all neglected and just trying t survive without any credibility.

All higher Defense training Institutions like War Colleges, national Defence College etc publish their third class magazines by taxing their students for a subscription.
All private efforts like IDR etc close down earlier than they open.

Above all - Defense University is in the dustbin for last 25 years.

If only 30 percent of funds allotted to JNU is given to these institutions you might be able to see something worthwhile and of some value to the nation.

Even then you expect too much.

Am I making sense?

 

[SRao]

True.

In short, if you want me to put 10,000 troops immediately into a feature with air induction above 12000 ft ASL for beefing up defences, I can do that, just need two things:

1. Adequate supply of platforms to insert them by air and assurance that they will not be moving for kilometers in first 2 days.

2. Tablet Acetazolamide in adequate quantities for them so as to premedicate for Acute Mountain Sickness.

Then its a - come on.

China has been "talking" with India for more than 3 weeks. I am sure they have had enough soldiers acclimatized by now.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Well my reply to China's talking & hard stand. Ohh Yeah!! our khejruddin!!!

"To Kar na"

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Look like master has said to his dog "don't BARK now", wait for the moment.
And Chinese strategy as always "talk so that you can gain time" and now we are all alert, must be their "attack while hidden" methodology, they read too much tsu tsu.

 

[Suryavanshi]

My Dear Sir, have you heard of a Class A as also class B Service in India called IIS who are recruited through all India Civil Service Examination (Allied Services) and posted as bureaucrats with all ministries. Govt spends a very hefty sum on them and they occupy post of JS and Addl Secy equivalent in ministry. Instaed of taking up a noble cause such as "Media Warfare" - those white elephants have been singularly responsible for the death of DD. All India Radio and all govt media channels. Have you seen even a single PIB release of MoD during this entire period? Like all bureaucrats, they are the worst lot taken from the bottom of the list but develop worst of the egos and have worst of the bureaucratic traits.

It's Babus yet agian.

Effin glorified clerks. Some times I think IAS is a remnant of British Era legacy that we can't get rid of. Babus at the time were recruited to keep the Indians in check and even now they are doing the same.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

In case of a kargil like skirmish I feel we should try and push the LAC back atleast 30-40kms into what is now with them as of today. Taking over the entire aksai chin area at this point without going all out is not realistic. Infra has seen massive improvements not just in ladakh but all along the LAC specially Arunachal. It's time we stand up to them and give them a bitter lesson.

I have mocked chines on PDF. This paper dragon masturbation addict old army is not fit to fight the war. We should take advantage of it and stretch this face off longer and made China agree to our conditions to go back atleast to 2013 position.

 

[WARREN SS]

We Need 1000+ Guns in Next 5 years

Dhanush
ULH
M777'
DRDO ATAGS
M46 155mm

Modern Assault rifle's for All infantry Specially mountain Strike corps
Along With MANAPADS And Man portable ATGM's

We Also Need Those Reaper Drones or Israeli's Equivalent

36 More Rafale F3R are need Of hour if Not MMRCA
Stand off Package Like ASMP-A And Hammer get us advantage

Integration Of SPICE-2000 With MKI's And Mig-29 Upg

Need To develop Our Own Stand up package In LCA MK1A

We Need To heavily Invest in our Air defense Specially Medium And Long range
Barak-8 And LR SAM are Key Along With S-400

Last But Nor Least is DRDO AEW&CS C-295 Platform

 

[utubekhiladi]

We Need 1000+ Guns in Next 5 years

Dhanush
ULH
M777'
DRDO ATAGS
M46 155mm

Modern Assault rifle's for All infantry Specially mountain Strike corps
Along With MANAPADS And Man portable ATGM's

We Also Need Those Reaper Drones or Israeli's Equivalent

36 More Rafale F3R are need Of hour if Not MMRCA
Stand off Package Like ASMP-A And Hammer get us advantage

Integration Of SPICE-2000 With MKI's And Mig-29 Upg

Need To develop Our Own Stand up package In LCA MK1A

We Need To heavily Invest in our Air defense Specially Medium And Long range
Barak-8 And LR SAM are Key Along With S-400

Last But Nor Least is DRDO AEW&CS C-295 Platform

most importantly, at-least 2 squadron of highly capable bombers

 

[Bhadra]

What terrain?

Marked. Rough approximation. Let's have the military logic and .... no bumkum.


View attachment 49796
Fig 1: LAC as approximately held denoted by red line (for the Lake). Territory of own forces with blue/violet. Enemy forces red.


View attachment 49797

Fig 2: Example of placement of 1 x Zu 23/ Bofors L-70 on either banks

View attachment 49798
Fig 3: Example of siting of Zu-23/Bofors L-70 on either side. Own bank (from POV) in reverse slope.

Weapons proposed:

Bofors L-70 40 mm - range 12500 meters
Medak 30 mm - range 4000 meters
Zu-23 23 mm - range 2500 meters
14.5 mm FAT (KPVT; if any are around still apart from few sector stores) - range 3000 meters




Interesting. Why, was it an exclusive attribute?

What exactly makes you think that I have neither the concept nor the experience of being able to talk of mountain/desert/high altitude/amphibious/airborne operations?



Since you insist:

View attachment 49799


Note the word means an ability - in this case, to hold ground. What determines the ability to hold ground in adverse situations wherein an enemy is expected to launch offensive ops?




Look carefully at the maps posted above. Geographical constraints?

Offensive ops across Canals in plains have the advantage in flexibility of choosing the breach/fording points depending on assessment of enemy strong points/weakness where as in case of Pangong Tso? Really? Is that what you are going to throw?




Really????

Please do educate me on the probability of a 155 mm in eliminating a bunker with a 24 inch concretized structure and a 12 inches overhead sand/earth protection, located on a reverse slope/reinforced in plain area? This, a structure giving a 36 inches overhead protection and reinforced for 203 mm caliber.




How? Again, you are dissecting and arguing for a case which you have placed on a very weak pedestal.

Your 'contest' will come into play only if you are able to place adequate forces along the banks, as can be appreciated in the maps I have placed above, to deny opposing forces the opportunity to eliminate the 'Landing Force' (so to speak). And when I have said 'capacity' what does it indicate? A handover on a platter? So that the said force is unopposed?




Thanks for teaching me amphibious operations. Apparently I know jack.......!

Now open your own mental block .... I can defend the place. And deny the waterways in that area.



Wow.



Precisely the manifestation of the limitation of the higher leadership in forces too. They think they know better. And assume the other has no clue.

Cheers

OK ... it is clear by now that you are not a professional. and that is why you are asking questions worst than a small boy.

Generally the weapons you mentioned are not meant for ground firing roles or employment. They have a very high rate of fire and can not fire for hours and hours to break an attack even if you have ten bunkers full of their ammunition. But I give you all. However, those can not be employed in large numbers.

Neutralise does not mean destruction only. Neutralize means making enemy incapable of performing his tasks perfectly. If 152mm shells are bursting all around a bunker. the gunner is not able to utilize his weapon properly. There would also be smoke all around, blast splinters, cries, destructions - all reduce the effectiveness of weapons.

If the lake is 100 km long on enemy side, he has a choice of building his forces on a given bank two or three km away unopposed in his own area. From there he can launch an attack.

Or he can launch an attack on the shore held by the defender from Lake itself. fight through and break out.

No amount of weapons can prevent an attacker if he is determined. He is also using his Zu-23, L-70 . MMG, HMG, Missiles, artillery and whatever you. You can not say you are immune to enemy fire.

That much is good enough for you.

Keep reading and learning.

 

[Bhadra]

We Need 1000+ Guns in Next 5 years

Dhanush
ULH
M777'
DRDO ATAGS
M46 155mm

Modern Assault rifle's for All infantry Specially mountain Strike corps
Along With MANAPADS And Man portable ATGM's

We Also Need Those Reaper Drones or Israeli's Equivalent

36 More Rafale F3R are need Of hour if Not MMRCA
Stand off Package Like ASMP-A And Hammer get us advantage

Integration Of SPICE-2000 With MKI's And Mig-29 Upg

Need To develop Our Own Stand up package In LCA MK1A

We Need To heavily Invest in our Air defense Specially Medium And Long range
Barak-8 And LR SAM are Key Along With S-400

Last But Nor Least is DRDO AEW&CS C-295 Platform

Ido not think ATAGS has made a mark ..... it is too heavy

 

[Bhadra]

China has been "talking" with India for more than 3 weeks. I am sure they have had enough soldiers acclimatized by now.

They have been talking since 1949. They have managed to bore the talkative Indians...

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

Out of topic I wonder if Chinese are so making world believe that they have very thing a country needs then why on earth they told russian to launch their mars orbiter

 

[mahesh]

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Ido not think ATAGS has made a mark ..... it is too heavy

Then IA needs to deploy them at the plains.. While DRDO, private partners work to reduce weight for mountainous deployment. Beggars cant be too choosy.. and then complain, they weren't provided with enough artillery guns..

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Okay, so which aircrafts of PLA have AESA radar systems? I know j20 has.

 

[IndianHawk]

Okay, so which aircrafts of PLA have AESA radar systems? I know j20 has.

New versions of j10 and j11D .

 

[Shashank Nayak]

They have been talking since 1949. They have managed to bore the talkative Indians...

I think India should make LAC lethal like the LOC.. China just comes and sits wherever it likes and India just does a naagin dance during endless talks..