India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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ninja hattori

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This is a major embarrassment for americans; Pakis are ruining the reputation of F-16 warplane.

may be I m reading too much in between line,

feel free to correct me anyone,

the news article says the screenshot is fake,

and the whole article revolves around that how a fake picture was created,

but no where in it they term the fake screenshot as "FAKE NEWS".

They didn't say the news in the screenshot categorically as FALSE or TRUE.

They just simply disowned the screenshot that its not of there website. that's it.

and suddenly PAF trending at the evening time seems to be unusual,

just follow the trend and it seems there are multiple tweets posted with same content at same time.

if nothing has happened why is so much fuss about it(in Pakistan)
 

mokoman

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may be I m reading too much in between line,

feel free to correct me anyone,

the news article says the screenshot is fake,

and the whole article revolves around that how a fake picture was created,

but no where in it they term the fake screenshot as "FAKE NEWS".

They didn't say the news in the screenshot categorically as FALSE or TRUE.

They just simply disowned the screenshot that its not of there website. that's it.

and suddenly PAF trending at the evening time seems to be unusual,

just follow the trend and it seems there are multiple tweets posted with same content at same time.

if nothing has happened why is so much fuss about it(in Pakistan)
The title is just horrible english , probably made by a paki himself for baiting indians .

Still you are right tho , really weird of them to go out of their way to prove its fake .

Something happened .
 

Blue Water Navy

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Their oil companies can only import what is allowed by their govt. ( Looking at demand and dollars available). Their govt failed to see rise in demand in harvesting season and didn't allow more import ( perhaps lack dollars to pay for more). result shortage
Of oil and oil company now looting people by charging 3-4 times more than actual price thanks to shortage
And everyone is blaming each other !!

Disfunctional.
Meanwhile the entire Pak except the Punjab province is charging 3x to 6x prices for electricity.
 

fire starter

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US study explains India’s conventional edge over China.

1962-type setback in the event of a full-scale escalation with China primarily because of its Beijing-centric deployments across air, land and high-altitude platforms, according to a US study. The research paper, published by the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at the Harvard Kennedy School earlier this year, analysed comparative data of Indian and Chinese strategic assets. The study, however, noted New Delhi’s conventional advantage remains “under-appreciated” in Indian discourse.

The publication introduced a new data compilation based on “published intelligence documents, private documents sourced from regional states, interviews with experts based in China, India, and the United States”. It gave a comprehensive assessment of “the location and capabilities of Chinese and Indian strategic forces”. The two authors of the study are Dr Frank O’Donnell, who is a non-resident fellow at the Stimson Center’s South Asia Program and Dr Alexander K Bollfrass, a senior researcher at the Center for Security Studies at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich.

Conventional Forces

The research estimated that India’s total available army strike forces near China’s border areas to be around 225,000 personnel against an estimated 200,00-230,000 Chinese ground forces under the Western Theater Command, and Tibet and Xinjiang military districts. But then the study found the Chinese numbers misleading. “Even in a war with India, a significant proportion of these forces will be unavailable, reserved either for Russian taskings or for countering insurrection in Xinjiang and Tibet,” it says. The authors observed that a majority of Chinese troops are located further from the Indian border, “posing a striking contrast with the majority of forward-deployed Indian forces with a single China defence mission”.

Air Capabilities

The Chinese Air Force (PLAAF), according to the authors, also suffers from a numerical disparity to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the border region. China’s Western Theater Command controls all regional strike aircraft in this area, the proportion of which are needed to be reserved for “Russia-centric missions”, the study said.

China, it added, hosts a total of around 101 fourth-generation fighters in this theatre, which also include Russian defence, against around 122 Indian comparables solely directed at China. China would likely be compelled to rely more upon its rear-area air bases, which will “exacerbate its limited fuel and payload problems”, the authors say. Most PLAAF pilots are over-reliant upon ground control for tactical direction, which the study notes may turn out to be counterproductive.

According to the study, the Indian fighter pilots have a level of institutional experience in actual networked combat due to ongoing conflicts with Pakistan.

Although China has a superior missile force, it is unlikely to overcome the PLAAF disadvantage at once. “If the PLAAF attacks just three airfields, it will require 660 ballistic missiles per day for attacking the runway and taxi track alone. China’s stock of 1,000-1,200 MRBMs/SRBMs (medium- and short-range ballistic missiles) will be over in less than two days when attacking just three airfields, with no other major target systems being addressed,” wrote the authors, quoting a former IAF official. The authors believe that China may permanently station large forces nearer to the border but it will give time for a counter-build-up by India.

LAC Stand-Off An Intelligence Failure

Frank O’Donnell, the lead author, told India Today TV that their assessment of the disposition of major Chinese and Indian combat forces has not changed since the publication in March. That said, he pointed out that such a large movement by the PLA would have been picked up by Indian and US intelligence much in advance. “What has happened in this episode is that a large Chinese military exercise near the border areas was used as a feint, with Chinese forces then being diverted toward the positions they occupy today,” O’Donnell said. He termed the current situation an outcome of “a significant intelligence failure” and suggested that “there should be a Kargil Review Committee-level public inquiry as to how this intelligence failure was permitted to occur and provide recommendations for preventing a recurrence”.

Possible Solutions

Asked about the possible solution to end the stand-off, O’Donnell suggested an aggressive diplomatic strategy, similar to that New Delhi executed following the 2008 Mumbai attacks. “China is intensely sensitive to its global image and how it is portrayed. The 2008 Mumbai playbook of regular MEA briefings of scores of foreign ambassadors regarding the nature and extent of the Chinese LAC violation, and pressuring these governments to publicly criticize China for these actions and demand that it withdraw will raise the international costs to China’s reputation in continuing the occupation.” In his opinion, Russia should be a particular target of Indian diplomacy with regard to China.

“To intercede with China as its closest partner to tell it to pull back, Russia is reportedly already very distressed with the Chinese actions,” O’Donnell added. The final diplomatic option, in O’donnell’s view, is the cancellation of an invitation to China for next year’s BRICS summit, which India is hosting. “PM Modi can publicly state that at present he cannot see how he could invite China to attend if it is occupying Indian territory,” says O’Donnell. He noted that the Doklam crisis ended soon before the scheduled commencement of the 2017 BRICS summit.
 

Bhadra

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Chinese now taking a hard line , this wont end anytime soon .
The writer is "Ajay Shukla" and the one publishing it is "Wire".

It is unfortunate but essential in India to know who is writing and who is publishing because of camp politics. propaganda. slanted news, prejudicial write-ups even on the issue of National security has become the norm.

Ajay Shukla peddles lies and claims ghost sources inside calling those "my source" I really do not who is going to buy it one day because of him.

Galwan valley - Chinese claiming entire valley - so what is new in that? Galwan River is more than 200 Km and only about 6-7 km of the valley from the confluence with Shyok had been under Indian control. I do not think the Chinese will contest that.
 

BeEverVectorMan

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Had on eastern front Ex PM Narishmarao had not disbanded the R&AW's covert action and on western front Ex PM Gujral had not disbanded the covert action, which ex isi chief zaiduddin himself told in interview when he was asked when you arrested many raw agents then why you didn't made it public to which he replied that there was a condition..
Hope PM Modi should know he has got the best military and civil intelligence, at his disposal..play wisely and become strong
 

Bhadra

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If that is what you inferred from my post?
I inferred from that post and even the present one is that terrain is out of your reach.
So we will strictly follow military logic..... no bunkum.
It may be a 1000 kms long. The statement - capacity to hold the area around it, should be self sufficient for the discerning mind.
So time and space has no meaning to you. It is very important though.

Capacity to hold a piece of ground also has a factor called enemy - how easy is it for the enemy to take it and what all will he do to take it..

Conversely, what are the principles of opposed 'beaching' ops?
Principles? Ok the principle simply is to screw the enemy. establish a bridgehead . expand and breakout. It it can be done on Satluj. Chenab, Sindh River or Hakara canal why can not it be done on Pengang Tso.

Tell me, how will they off load troops to concentrate? If they want to undertake a joy ride in the lake, by any means, do so. Will love to see them do that with a nice Zu-23 target practice demo range set.
The troops will come by boat. You Zu-23 would have been fu**ed by heavy 152mm shelling or a direct shot of RPG or bigger guns on assault boats. There will be a contest to capture the shore. After foothold is established it will be expanded by further penetration and waves of troops will land.

What is so big a deal Yaara. If PLA can plan to go to Taiwan and do that at a massive scale why not Pengagng Tso. Why this mental block?

And what would they do over the water? Fish?
What did Shri Hanuman Ji do over the water? Did he go there to fish ? How did Siyapati Ramchandra Ji overcome water without fishing? All Navies in the world use water for fishing?
Water like earth and air is a medium brother which is used for motion, dynamics, acceleration ... whatever .. simply call that as a movement. Faster movement than on earth... do not you know that ? Unless you belong to the category who consider travelling over water as "Dharma Bhrusta".

Exactly.

So, the point of your post? Brooding?
I doubt even now you would have understood.
 
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ezsasa

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I’m afraid lessons for civilians during this round of military escalation is same as the last time post Balakot strike...

We suck at PR management, too many Jai Chands within who are systematically creating spins internally to confuse the hell out of people..

This time same as last time it was Shukla & Shawney, aided by many other publications.

Unless Indian security establishment does not come up with some kind of penalty system Both for news media & individuals, who know what mess these jai Chands will create during a more serious situation some time in the future. It need not be something illegal, i am sure it can be done within the confines of the law.

and second lesson is the penchant of “experts” to tackle the narrative individually, and none of them are capable of building a smart counter narratives.

as we know TV channels Suck at pro-India narrative building.

This time counter narrative rested solely on Nitin Gokhale, as far as I can see. No body else created fresh set of inputs other than him.

if “experts” can set their egos aside and collaborate, it would be of great help. and it’s very simple, all they need to do is get into a structured debates in groups of 4 or 5 and release a paper highlighting the narrative for others to use. If there is no consensus within the group, don’t release the paper until a consensus is Formed of the ideas within the groups. this has to happen before 3 pm of following day, and by 5 pm the NOTE has to be put on social media. If more groups work on the same objective, more chances of well thought out narratives coming out. If they want to commercialise this, it’s fine but don’t expect returns from year one itself.

Am I making sense?
 

Bhadra

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anyone can explain this?

11.Another c-130 but type H spotted flying in Pakistan airspace from India.

P.s. india doesn't operate type H


May be taking the gift of Kashmir Golden Delicious Apples for Bajwa and Maran Khan.
 

Shashank Nayak

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The writer is "Ajay Shukla" and the one publishing it is "Wire".

It is unfortunate but essential in India to know who is writing and who is publishing because of camp politics. propaganda. slanted news, prejudicial write-ups even on the issue of National security has become the norm.

Ajay Shukla peddles lies and claims ghost sources inside calling those "my source" I really do not who is going to buy it one day because of him.

Galwan valley - Chinese claiming entire valley - so what is new in that? Galwan River is more than 200 Km and only about 6-7 km of the valley from the confluence with Shyok had been under Indian control. I do not think the Chinese will contest that.
Both Ajai Shukla and Praveen contine to say that chinese troops are still present inside the Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC. Whereas Nitin Gokhale claims there is no incursion in Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC.
So, the question is, what stops the Government from officially saying "There are no chinese troops in the Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC" ?
 

Blue Water Navy

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Both Ajai Shukla and Praveen contine to say that chinese troops are still present inside the Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC. Whereas Nitin Gokhale claims there is no intrusion in Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC.
So, the question is, what stops the Government from officially saying "There are no chinese troops in the Galwan valley on India's side of the LAC" ?
GOI is not making statement because the situation hasn't changed much. There will be talks tomorrow again.
 

Blue Water Navy

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I’m afraid lessons for civilians during this round of military escalation is same as the last time post Balakot strike...

We suck at PR management, too many Jai Chands within who are systematically creating spins internally to confuse the hell out of people..

This time same as last time it was Shukla & Shawney, aided by many other publications.

Unless Indian security establishment does not come up with some kind of penalty system Both for news media & individuals, who know what mess these jai Chands will create during a more serious situation some time in the future. It need not be something illegal, i am sure it can be done within the confines of the law.

and second lesson is the penchant of “experts” to tackle the narrative individually, and none of them are capable of building a smart counter narratives.

as we know TV channels Suck at pro-India narrative building.

This time counter narrative rested solely on Nitin Gokhale, as far as I can see. No body else created fresh set of inputs other than him.

if “experts” can set their egos aside and collaborate, it would be of great help. and it’s very simple, all they need to do is get into a structured debates in groups of 4 or 5 and release a paper highlighting the narrative for others to use. If there is no consensus within the group, don’t release the paper until a consensus is Formed of the ideas within the groups. this has to happen before 3 pm of following day, and by 5 pm the NOTE has to be put on social media. If more groups work on the same objective, more chances of well thought out narratives coming out. If they want to commercialise this, it’s fine but don’t expect returns from year one itself.

Am I making sense?
Atleast Nitin Gokhale is speaking out in favor IA. I haven't seen him (or maybe I didn't hear) during Doklam.
 

Shashank Nayak

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GOI is not making statement because the situation hasn't changed much. There will be talks tomorrow again.
Now, what does that mean ? Until the situation changes we assume anything based on which political camp we are in ? So, if you are BJP - No intrusion in Galwan valley on India's side of LAC.. If Congress- Chinese troops are holidaying in Galwan valley on India's side of LAC..? Does GOI does not want to set the narrative during a crisis ?
 

ezsasa

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Jeff agrees....
=======
Why have I trusted @nitingokhale's reporting on the China-India border issues over other, more sensational claims that have since proven unreliable? Because in the years I've known him he's proven to be a patriot with good contacts and no political agenda interested in the facts.

 

ezsasa

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Atleast Nitin Gokhale is speaking out in favor IA. I haven't seen him (or maybe I didn't hear) during Doklam.
Having an own platform is important, don’t think he had strat news Global at that time.
 
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