India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[garg_bharat]

Bhadra, the implications of a war with China are fairly big. The first and foremost is the status of Chinese companies operating in India especially in telecom sector. Second is of course reality that any conflict can spread across a large area and become out of control. Third is how world treats such conflict and who comes to India's aid.

I think ITBP managing a border in peacetime is hardly an issue. India has a defensive posture and it is natural that India will lose some land at least initially in any conflict.

 

[Kumata]

*****************


Rahul Gandhi
@RahulGandhi

सब को मालूम है ‘सीमा’ की हक़ीक़त लेकिन,
दिल के ख़ुश रखने को, ‘शाह-यद’ ये ख़्याल अच्छा है।https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1269587598302797824?s=20 …
ANI
@ANI

reply to prince...

मिर्ज़ा ग़ालिब का ही शेर थोड़ा अलग अन्दाज़ में है।

‘ ‘हाथ’ में दर्द हो तो दवा कीजै, ‘हाथ’ ही जब दर्द हो तो क्या कीजै..

 

[ladder]

Mota Bhai must answer why LAC is with ITBP and how and Why ITBP has failed to preempt such big Chinese intrusion..?

He can't answer, RM Rajnath Singh has to answer.
Why? Ladakh Scouts cancelled yearly exercise with ITBP in March due to CoVID-19.
What does this exercise do? It patrols the vulnerable points and mirrors Chinese movements across LAC.

The above is the cause for initial delay that every publication talked about.

And no, ITBP could have done the exercise alone ( increasing the number of troops) if had intimation sufficiently ahead of time.

 

[Coalmine]

I think we should intimidate chinese ships passing Indian Ocean. May be arrest a few. International rules gaye tel lene.

 

[Bhadra]

He can't answer, RM Rajnath Singh has to answer.
Why? Ladakh Scouts cancelled yearly exercise with ITBP in March due to CoVID-19.
What does this exercise do? It patrols the vulnerable points and mirrors Chinese movements across LAC.

The above is the cause for the initial delay that every publication talked about.

And no, ITBP could have done the exercise alone ( increasing the number of troops) if had intimation sufficiently ahead of time.

That is not a good answer which inter alia means :

* ITBP without Army or increased strength can not keep adequate surveillance of LAC. Then why the task of Guarding the border has been given to them ?? ITBP has accepted it and it is not For Modi to tell them how where and in what numbers the task will be performed.

* If so, realistic assessment of ITBP numbers required on LAC is ITBP responsibility and not Army's responsibility when ITBP is not under Command.
* Can You explain to me why there are only five battalions at 6o percent strength available out of 13 battalions under NW Frontiers in Ladakh? And out of those five, one is a Mahila Battalions ???? ....
* Why are those battalions not there with full six companies ?? What has happened to seventh company concept ??
* It inter alia also means that LAC is not a peacetime border but a live military wire where military threats exist which is beyond ITBP. Therefore, the basic or fundamental approach in LAC management is wrong.

Tel; me who should have intimated what to ITBP in time? Does not ITBP know that there is no movement due to Covid ? What about Contingency plans of ITBP ? What about Reserves ? Where are they ? Why are they in Delhi ??

If you really open up that way a lot of shit will hit the fan...

 

[Bhadra]

He can't answer, RM Rajnath Singh has to answer.
Why? Ladakh Scouts cancelled yearly exercise with ITBP in March due to CoVID-19.
What does this exercise do? It patrols the vulnerable points and mirrors Chinese movements across LAC.

The above is the cause for initial delay that every publication talked about.

And no, ITBP could have done the exercise alone ( increasing the number of troops) if had intimation sufficiently ahead of time.

You must understand the strategic blunder and the strategic trap that Indian planners has fallen into regarding the management of LAC.

Borders mean an accepted boundary between two countries which is unalterable except by war. That it is the settled issue. Any attempt to alter it is an act of war. That is why it is policed.

If LAC with China is policed that means India is considering LAC as a settled issue equivalent to a border?? Well that is precisely China wants. Then why make hulla blue about boundary issues. Then why talk of Aksaichin.

Second. the strategic trap is = Does China considers LAC as an almost settled issue and do they police the LAC ?? The answer is no. Their acts of intrusion and military aggressions speak that they are ready to change the status of LAC any time they wish to. Then how can it be a peaceful border fit for policing?

What is Indian establishment especially the MEA trying to convey to the Chinese? That they are ready to accept LAC as the settled boundary ?? That should have been done in 1959. or 1960 or in 1962 or even later.

Why are they making a fool of the Indian public that Aksai Chin is our territory? If you place police on LAC you have virtually accepted that as the boundary (I say again boundary akin to IB)...

Actions are more important than making noises to the domestic audience.. They are betraying the country... plain and simple.

 

[ladder]

That is not a good answer which inter alia means :

* ITBP without Army or increased strength can not keep adequate surveillance of LAC. Then why the task of Guarding the border has been given to them ?? ITBP has accepted it and it is not For Modi to tell them how where and in what numbers the task will be performed.

* If so, realistic assessment of ITBP numbers required on LAC is ITBP responsibility and not Army's responsibility when ITBP is not under Command.
* Can You explain to me why there are only five battalions at 6o percent strength available out of 13 battalions under NW Frontiers in Ladakh? And out of those five, one is a Mahila Battalions ???? ....
* Why are those battalions not there with full six companies ?? What has happened to seventh company concept ??
* It inter alia also means that LAC is not a peacetime border but a live military wire where military threats exist which is beyond ITBP. Therefore, the basic or fundamental approach in LAC management is wrong.

Tel; me who should have intimated what to ITBP in time? Does not ITBP know that there is no movement due to Covid ? What about Contingency plans of ITBP ? What about Reserves ? Where are they ? Why are they in Delhi ??

If you really open up that way a lot of shit will hit the fan...

You and your comprehension issues. Trying to act too smart, you are making an absolute fool of yourself .

Read the last statement ( previous post) of mine till that thing really sinks in.

ITBP units are rotated out every 3 months. Had IA given them prior notice, they could have brought in.
Remember, in the lockdown, military (Army) trains were moving per schedule and there is no ITBP trains.

And ITBP will provide manpower according to requirements. And requirements are according to existing procedures on ground. Which is joint exercise with IA. If that is cancelled at last moment, you expect ITBP to have contingency plans when IA was sitting clueless.

Yes, let the issues be out. Let everyone know that Scout battalions of Kumayon, Garwal and Dogra were move out of their location, not withstanding the concept of Scout battalion. One was even placed in Secunderabad.

In your mental construct against other agencies, you forget many things. And when pointed out, you suitably deflect by pinning the blame on many other agencies like MoD, OFB and as last ditch effort on the brass hatter's.

 

[ladder]

You must understand the strategic blunder and the strategic trap that Indian planners has fallen into regarding the management of LAC.

Borders mean an accepted boundary between two countries which is unalterable except by war. That it is the settled issue. Any attempt to alter it is an act of war. That is why it is policed.

If LAC with China is policed that means India is considering LAC as a settled issue equivalent to a border?? Well that is precisely China wants. Then why make hulla blue about boundary issues. Then why talk of Aksaichin.

Second. the strategic trap is = Does China considers LAC as an almost settled issue and do they police the LAC ?? The answer is no. Their acts of intrusion and military aggressions speak that they are ready to change the status of LAC any time they wish to. Then how can it be a peaceful border fit for policing?

What is Indian establishment especially the MEA trying to convey to the Chinese? That they are ready to accept LAC as the settled boundary ?? That should have been done in 1959. or 1960 or in 1962 or even later.

Why are they making a fool of the Indian public that Aksai Chin is our territory? If you place police on LAC you have virtually accepted that as the boundary (I say again boundary akin to IB)...

Actions are more important than making noises to the domestic audience.. They are betraying the country... plain and simple.

I accept everything you wrote whole-heartedly with the exception of your views ( I have not used the term slandering) on ITBP.

 

[doreamon]

India’s apex traders association announces campaign to boycott Chinese products

Riding on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘vocal for local’ comment, the Confederation of Indian Traders (CAIT), today announced a national campaign to boycott Chinese products. The country’s apex association for traders, which represents 7 crore traders and 40,000 trade associations, is calling the campaign “Indian good - our price" and the campaign will begin from June 10.
CAIT secretary general, Praveen Khandelwal and National President, B.C. Bhartia, alleged that China has been “India’s antagonist" and said the organization has been “continuously campaigning from time to time" for boycott of Chinese products for the last four years. “As a result of these initiatives, important from China have dropped from $76 billion in 2017-18 to $70 billion at present," the organization claimed in its announcement.
Further, the two leaders of the organization said CAIT wants to bring down the imports from China to $13 billion by December 2021. “To achieve this goal, CAIT has prepared a comprehensive list of about 3000 products imported from China for which Indian substitutes and alternatives are easily available and customers of India will also not mind because all those things are already made in India," the two leaders said.
According to them, India imported only $2 billion worth of goods from China in 2001, but this had increased to $70 billion in 2019. “This staggering figure clearly shows how China has tried to capture Indian markets which is one of the world’s largest," they said.

They also said that “prominent leaders" from all Indian states have “seriously contemplated the capture of India’s retail market by China", in daily video conferences that CAIT has arranged between March 25 and now. The organization will continue to hold video conferences to “inculcate" the “nuances and intricacies" of the campaign amongst traders in India. It has also formed a national committee to run the campaign with Brij Mohan, Vice Chairman of CAIT at its Convenor.

India’s apex traders association announces campaign to boycott Chinese products

CAIT wants to bring down the imports from China to $13 billion by December 2021

www.livemint.com

 

[Tridev123]

The border situation at the LAC/LOC presents an acute dilemma for the Government and the security apparatus. Any hopes of the Chinese retreating
from their illegal occupations at many points have been squashed. Diplomacy can have a chance if the other side also reciprocates. But it seems that the Chinese are
desperate and doing brinkmanship.

Let us be clear. Whether it is a BJP Government or a Congress Government or any
other it is not in the nation's interest to watch India getting bullied. The Congress has faced similar situations when Dr. Manmohan Singh was Prime Minister. Previous Congress Governments functionaries must not have forgotten similar Chinese coercion in the past. They were lucky most of them were resolved thru talks. So the Congress should not gloat over the present Government's discomfiture. The Chinese are the villains here, not our polity.

I believe that the Chinese this time are really desperate, probably due to the economic decline caused by the Covid 19 pandemic. Their economy has never shrunk in decades. They see India as probably being a beneficiary of the international distrust of China and becoming a magnet for foreign investment. By
hook or crook they want to stop it. ee

Is there a way to put acute military pressure on China at another place on their borders?. Can a crisis be generated on the Korean penunsila diverting their attention and releasing the pressure on our borders?. If a threat of war between North and South Korea which will suck in the PLA happens, then maybe the PLA would like to cool down things with India. Can the Chinese be arm twisted to do a trade off?. No answers are available.
s
But India has to decide pretty quickly the future course of action. If we do nothing and decide to wait while upgrading our defences.and engage in fruitless talks the
advantage will pass on to the Chinese. The quasi permanent structures built at the intrusion points by the Chinese will be upgraded and proper supply lines to sustain the new Chinese posts would be created. With passage of time it would become more difficult to evict the Chinese. Time is on their side.

Getting into an armed conflict with China is never an easy decision. I understand rgfthe stress that our decision makers would be going through. We might need outside support to take on the Chinese. If Russia was the Russia of 1971 then seeking their help would be the first choice. But today's Russia is itself in a crisis.
That leaves only the US. Whether we should swallow this poison in the larger national interest is a question mark?.

Will the first bullet be fired across the Indo - China border soon?. Silence and procrastination cannot suffice. Difficult decisions for any Government be it the BJP or Congress.

 

[Bhadra]

You and your comprehension issues. Trying to act too smart, you are making an absolute fool of yourself .

Read the last statement of mine till that thing really sinks in.

ITBP units are rotated out every 3 months. Had IA given them prior notice, they could have brought in.
Remember, in the lockdown, militant (Army) trains were moving per schedule and there is no ITBP trains.

And ITBP will provide manpower according to requirements. And requirements are according to existing procedures on ground. Which is joint exercise with IA. If that is cancelled at last moment, you expect ITBP to have contingency plans when IA was sitting clueless.

Yes, let the issues be out. Let everyone know that Scout battalions of Kumayon, Garwal and Dogra were move out of their location, not withstanding the concept of Scout battalion. One was even placed in Secunderabad.

In your mental construct against other agencies, you forget many things. And when pointed out, you suitably deflect by pinning the blame on many other agencies like MoD, OFB and as last ditch effort on the brass hatter's.

All bunkum...
If ITBP units are rotated every three months, then there should have been at least eight to nine battalions there is the month of Feb Mar when the lockdown started till about the First week of Jun because of ban on movement. Both the outgoing and incoming units should have been in Ladakh unless everybody ran towards Delhi on foot.

If ITBP deploys Mahilla battalion on LAC I can make out what ITBP brass think of LAC - thund and khussi Job. I am surprised why there were not at least 100 intrusions in that sector... How can PLA not be interested.....at least some Dhaka -Mukki or banner drills to refresh

I did not know that contingency planning and keeping reserves is not a police concept and not part of their training... better attend basic Army Courses...

Do not talk of Army Scouts ... they are not under command ITBP. LAC is ITBP's responsibility and talk of that only....

You get trapped because you are unnecessarily defending the indefensible..

 

[tarunraju]

The border situation at the LAC/LOC presents an acute dilemma for the Government and the security apparatus. Any hopes of the Chinese retreating
from their illegal occupations at many points have been squashed. Diplomacy can have a chance if the other side also reciprocates. But it seems that the Chinese are
desperate and doing brinkmanship.

Let us be clear. Whether it is a BJP Government or a Congress Government or any
other it is not in the nation's interest to watch India getting bullied. The Congress has faced similar situations when Dr. Manmohan Singh was Prime Minister. Previous Congress Governments functionaries must not have forgotten similar Chinese coercion in the past. They were lucky most of them were resolved thru talks. So the Congress should not gloat over the present Government's discomfiture. The Chinese are the villains here, not our polity.

I believe that the Chinese this time are really desperate, probably due to the economic decline caused by the Covid 19 pandemic. Their economy has never shrunk in decades. They see India as probably being a beneficiary of the international distrust of China and becoming a magnet for foreign investment. By
hook or crook they want to stop it. ee

Is there a way to put acute military pressure on China at another place on their borders?. Can a crisis be generated on the Korean penunsila diverting their attention and releasing the pressure on our borders?. If a threat of war between North and South Korea which will suck in the PLA happens, then maybe the PLA would like to cool down things with India. Can the Chinese be arm twisted to do a trade off?. No answers are available.
s
But India has to decide pretty quickly the future course of action. If we do nothing and decide to wait while upgrading our defences.and engage in fruitless talks the
advantage will pass on to the Chinese. The quasi permanent structures built at the intrusion points by the Chinese will be upgraded and proper supply lines to sustain the new Chinese posts would be created. With passage of time it would become more difficult to evict the Chinese. Time is on their side.

Getting into an armed conflict with China is never an easy decision. I understand rgfthe stress that our decision makers would be going through. We might need outside support to take on the Chinese. If Russia was the Russia of 1971 then seeking their help would be the first choice. But today's Russia is itself in a crisis.
That leaves only the US. Whether we should swallow this poison in the larger national interest is a question mark?.

Will the first bullet be fired across the Indo - China border soon?. Silence and procrastination cannot suffice. Difficult decisions for any Government be it the BJP or Congress.

India's next moves will be:

• Call China's bluff, match them man for man, tank for tank, rocket for rocket, and nuke for nuke.
• Mobilize along the entire front and mobilize in no-man's lands elsewhere
• Build economic pressure by hitting Chinese businesses in India hard. Thanks to their misadventure in Ladakh, India has the "national security" excuse to give to WTO. We can make Chinese businesses bleed billions of Dollars
• Torment Chinese merchant vessels in IOR, force them to move in convoys escorted by PLAN, which can become soft targets if war does break out. (German U-boat strategy of forcing transatlantic shipping lines to move in convoys that can be taken out easily)
• Also terrorizing chicoms in IOR can test the so-called "string of pearls." If we spot PLAN vessels making port in Sri Lanka, the Maldives, Myanmar, or Bangladesh, coerce those states harder
• Keep Pakistan on the back-foot. If our intelligence detects any paki excitement, start hitting paki positions along LoC

 

[Vishal reddy]

Only if India can counter the Chinese amphibious fleet of the PLA Navy. Take a look at their future plans.
Amphibious fleet is the weakest in Indian Navy!!

If China Invades Taiwan, This Is What The Fleet Could Look Like

A possible invasion of Taiwan has long been derided as the ‘million man swim’ because the Chinese Navy was not equipped to pull it off. That may no longer be the case.

www.forbes.com

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Only if India can counter the Chinese amphibious fleet of the PLA Navy. Take a look at their future plans.
Amphibious fleet is the weakest in Indian Navy!!

If China Invades Taiwan, This Is What The Fleet Could Look Like

A possible invasion of Taiwan has long been derided as the ‘million man swim’ because the Chinese Navy was not equipped to pull it off. That may no longer be the case.

www.forbes.com

You are talking about how Indian fleet is weak and showing an article of invading Taiwan.

 

[ladder]

All bunkum...
If ITBP units are rotated every three months, then there should have been at least eight to nine battalions there is the month of Feb Mar when the lock down started till about the First week of Jun because of ban on movement. Both the outgoing and incoming units in should have been in Ladakh.

If ITBP deploys Mahilla battalion on LAC I can make out what ITBP brass think of LAC - thund and khussi Job. I am surprised why there were not at least 100 intrusions in that sector... How can PLA not be interested.....

I did not know that contingency planning and keeping reserves is not a police concept and not part of their training... better attend basic Army Courses...

Do not talk of Army Scouts ... they are not under command ITBP. LAC is ITBP's responsibility and talk of that only....

You get trapped because you are unnecessarily defending the indefensible..

Again another useless post.

But then, I am talking to a person who is defending an organization, whose failure about intruders sitting in it's area of responsibility was brought out by a ship herder. How convenient.

But, ITBP is to blame because PLA pitched tents on its own side of LAC.

And why not talk about IA scouts?
Were they raised to be positioned in Secunderabad? Responsible for trijuncton of Hyderabad-Secunderabad-Cyberabad?
IA just changed the definition of Scout Battalion.

And taking about contingency? What contingency did IA have when it pulled troops out of RR battalions in 1999 and 2002, which led to rise of militancy in hinterland?

 

[SRao]

All of a sudden everyone here seems to accept that China has intruded and occupied Indian land, and India was caught napping. What happened?

 

[Vishal reddy]

You are talking about how Indian fleet is weak and showing an article of invading Taiwan.

I am just showing the weakest spot of our Naval fleet!!! For you it doesn't matter because today its Taiwan and Tomorrow its going to be Andaman and Nicobar islands!! The Chinese has been actively encroaching in the south china sea... Tomorrow in the Indian ocean, they have already started their job in Sri Lanka!!

 

[cereal killer]

Both these Congress & BJP loons need to stop it now. They are fighting all over social media. Instead of uniting the public a divide is being created. This is exactly what China wants. We have learned shit from history.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

I am just showing the weakest spot of our Naval fleet!!! For you it doesn't matter because today its Taiwan and Tomorrow its going to be Andaman and Nicobar islands!! The Chinese has been actively encroaching in the south china sea... Tomorrow in the Indian ocean, they have already started their job in Sri Lanka!!

Pehle Ladakh mein to lar le phir dekhenge.

And let China attack Taiwan first. The mighty PLA won't even do that.

 

[Vishal reddy]

Pehle Ladakh mein to lar le phir dekhenge.

And let China attack Taiwan first. The mighty PLA won't even do that.

I've got two quotes for you
1)
The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.
2) Prevention is better than cure!!