India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Bhadra]

The last picture is of establishment 22, aka the SFF. The two guys are tibetans and the army officer towering over them is an US officer, whose name escapes me at the moment, on deputation to India to train them as est 22 was formed initially with significant US contribution.

Only eleven massages and you are deliberately raking an issue of no significance .. at least for the current time...
Are you a Chinese bot ??

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

I really find it laughable when Chinese think they can do whatever they want without giving an iota of thinking that they are on verge of getting isolated

 

[ladder]

No bold letters .. that is considered improper and bad manners,,,

We all do our jobs but the only question is that we must do it in a coordinated manner.. and for coordination, only one agency can be made responsible ... that is it. There are no egos involved..

Sorry, for the bolded part.

Agree with what you have written. But, doesn't answer my point.

From the beginning, you have been slandering ITBP for no role of their in it.
Just trying to prove, your allegations against ITBP are not on firm grounds.

Your hatred against IPS should not be directed against an organization as a whole. You have used many misinformation in your arguments which have been debunked.

 

[rock127]

Ok so as I said before here is a reason Chini has their panties in twist.

Todays Hindustan newspaper.

Center Govt is raising 14,500 kms strategic roads along border.

So 75% of work on the 3,200 kms Indo-China is already completed and remaining 25% is to be done in next 3 years since it's much difficult terrain.

So Chini knows if rest 25% is done they may have difficult in countering India and Chini are running out of time.

And look at Congress, they don't want 11,000 workers from Jharkhand to be given so road projects gets hampered. They are working for China and against Indian security.

 

[daya]

Lack of basic understanding..

In that case, the cabinet will decide it is wartime and entire border including BSF will be placed under Army.... Army will take charge and Rajnath will brief Media..

But in the present case, the LAC has not been placed under MoD .. why is Rajnath jumping the gun... I am trying to bring out the predicament of a situation of "kare Koi air Bhare Koi"...

I dare say the Army Generalship must rise to the occasion and firmly demand end of such a nonsense of the system..

General Rawat and Gen Narawane must put forward this aspect firmly and strongly to eliminate this dangerous dichotomy on LAC.

This is a game won by bureaucrats by huge margin. They have just shift the onus to IA, very cleverly.

 

[Ultramarine]

Only eleven massages and you are deliberately raking an issue of no significance .. at least for the current time...
Are you a Chinese bot ??

No massages given sir.
And if pointing out some honest mistake makes one a chinese bot, I wonder what that says about your comprehension or the lack thereof.

 

[IndianHawk]

Chinese product is not a single entity. They are multiple layers.

Most of Chinese import in India are cheap small things. Like data cable , cheap headphones , phone covers , screen guard , small toys of all kind

All these things are directly replaceable . There is no complex tech involved just scale is needed.

Then there is middle layer of more complex products like smart phones , ac and household equipment , tv , electric bikes etc.
We are already forcing equipment maker to assemble in India and now components are being manufactured with here. We can slowly bring whole ecosystem here. Even if then product is Chinese most of value addition will happen in India.

Most difficult is bigger equipment like 4g/5g kits , solar panels , construction machinery . It will require massive investment to replace them but they make up very less portion of Indian imports. Most are small things.

Our aim should be to have layered action.
Ban small things from china outright like cables , toys , phone accessories.

Second force components to be build here and Never import a finished product . Even for machinery etc.

Chinese succeeded because they utilized their scale.
We need to repeat this .

For example we are biggest two wheeler consumers in world ( china has moved to cars ) .
Consequently we became biggest two wheeler manufacturer in world ( govt . protected automobile industry)
And now we are beating Chinese companies in Africa!!

Two wheeler motorcycle are not small product. ( Much bigger and costly than smartphone , tv , fridge etc.) And yet we can build and beat china there.

How is that possible because govt protect automobile industry and allowed it to scale up to our potential..

That's why our automobile manufacturing hasn't been replaced by Chinese.

We need to repeat this model for textile , toys and consumer goods as well as electronic equipment.

And we can do it. Just in 2 months we became 2nd largest producer of PPE ,
We are already second largest producer of smartphone.
We are 4th largest producer of automobiles already.
Equal to Germany
We are 2nd largest producer of steel in world. Ahead of USA and japan
We are second largest producer of cement. Far far ahead of USA.

We are sixth largest manufacturer of the world since 2018 ( almost equal to South Korea).

If we can build all those things why can't we build the small items we keep importing from china.

Time is now to protect domestic electronics industry from china ( not anybody else so no lack of competition from USA Japan and Europe).
And allow them to scale just like examples above.

This post is now going to India in facts and data thread .

 

[Bhadra]

The issue here is why Rajnath and not Shah? Hmm, yeah, this does seem to be very important, especially the chinese would need to be given the message by the right person. From the chinese side, I have no idea whether it was ding-pong who is addressing their media, or is it ching-chong, or maybe ling-song. Who cares.

We seem to be hung up on protocols more than the babus we despise.

Actually, in this case, Rajnath addressing the press is better than Shah doing so, from Modi gvt's perspective. Pappu and his legions in the media and elsewhere would have gone hammer and tongs at the very sight of Shah- the hatred is very deep rooted. Even institutions like the SC would have suo-moto waded in and start asking questions! Rajnath, oth, looks like a deer caught in the headlights.

Jaishanker is too light weight. And all others in BJP are just chamchas, attributing everything to Modi's 56inch chest, riding on his coat-tails to power.

Rajnath is the one person who has spoken on the issue. Call him the pointsman on the issue. MoD has great stakes in management of LAC but forces on ground are not under MoD but MHA. There is no need of such a duality wherein both sides can avoid responsibilities. and put MEA in a fix.

But technically LAC is under Amit Shah "during peace"... Amit Shah is appointing ITBP Generals after Generals without any responsibilities... how fair is that ?? When it comes to shit hitting the fans, Army Generals are sweating.. ITBP generals are having green tea in Chandigarh ... what kind of system is that ??

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

China has replaced the Army commander for its Western Theatre Command ground forces responsible for handling the Sino-India border.

tfipost.com

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

can anyone confirm??

 

[ladder]

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

China has replaced the Army commander for its Western Theatre Command ground forces responsible for handling the Sino-India border.

tfipost.com

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

can anyone confirm??

Not sure, heard his posting out was approved since Jan 2020. I am not confirm about my information.

 

[IndianHawk]

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

China has replaced the Army commander for its Western Theatre Command ground forces responsible for handling the Sino-India border.

tfipost.com

Xi Jinping has kneeled: China forced to remove the army commander who created the border rift with India

can anyone confirm??

They changed the commander after standoff. That much was widely reported.

 

[ezsasa]

They changed the commander after standoff. That much was widely reported.

could it be that, PLA commanders toward the end of their posting do something crazy to earn some retirement brownie points?

 

[mist_consecutive]

View attachment 49643
As per some porkis China Deployed pcl 191 MRLS. Artillery can fire Upto 350 Km , Can launch two 750mm ballistic missiles 500km.

The so called high land advantage doesn't look like an advantage for me . Not. Single person / Twitter analysts never said how can we avoid the hitting from those artilleries , in high mountains we don't have much space to manuvers or hide , if it is even not a direct hit the rocks and Other will slide inti directly towards our troops . Chinese are mostly in level grounds , they can shoot and Scoot.

We need to improve our Weapons and need long range and light weight artillery and connectivity between mountain ranges .

May be our army already have some techniques to counter this that's the only hope I have .

First, what is the accuracy of their MLRS? Normal ballistic missiles with INS still have a rough accuracy of 40-80m CEP (And that means 50% probability missile will fall within the radius of 40-80 from target).

And that is the reason, artillery is always used in barrages, to increase the probability of shells/missiles landing on the correct target.

However, in the mountains, 80m offset means a huge distance and can mean more than 160 mtrs away.
Plus, mountain acts as a natural barrier, offering numerous natural bunkers/shelters in form of terrain, rocks, and crevices.

Steep valleys of Ladakh are very difficult to accurately target with artillery unless it has a top-down approach like cruise missile BrahMos.


But wait, don't just fall for the heavily exaggerated figure of range just yet!
Let's look at the claimed rocket first.

PCL 191

Notice the length of the missile ~ 6-7m.

Now look at BM-30 Smerch, Soviet MLRS

Length of the missile - 7.2m, thickness - 0.3m, range ~ 70-90km, warhead - 243kg.

Indian Prahaar missile -

Length of the missile - 7.3m, thickness - 0.42m, range ~ 150km, warhead - 200kg.

Now look at PC-191 claimed range - 350 km for a thickness of 0.35m.

Which means Prahaar has 35% more fuel space than PC-191 but has less than half the range of PC-191?

So, either PC-191 is carrying a grenade as a warhead, or this is just Chinese propaganda.

 

[Bhadra]

Sorry, for the bolded part.

Agree with what you have written. But, doesn't answer my point.

From the beginning, you have been slandering ITBP for no role of their in it.
Just trying to prove, your allegations against ITBP are not on firm grounds.

Your hatred against IPS should not be directed against an organization as a whole. You have used many misinformation in your arguments which have been debunked.

Firstly, I have no hatred for anyone. ITBP was the only police force used to admire but they were very different then. IPS officers have their own vital role to play but like IAS they have become very greedy and selfish in building empires for themselves. I have worked with many IPS officers as also with ITBP.
So be assured on that count.

My aim and solution is to tackle much larger issues. That is how to face China when they come up with four groups Armies against India. We need a minimum of twenty divisions. The accretion is within reach if all CAPF are militarised - that is they go through Army training. To face China CAPF can e be utilized as an additional ten divisions on the border.

CAPF can only be effectively militarised but for that, they will have to shed their Police Culture deliberately infused by the IPS and CAPF cadre officers would be required to undergo military training.

This the only method to face China or India will not be able to raise addinal ten Inantry ? Moutain divisions...

I have nowhere belittled ITBP but I have no opinions of CAPF officer cadre..

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

In a very unprofessional way China has played its role from December onwards may be all the wrongdoings till now has been filled in their buckets

 

[IndianHawk]

could it be that, PLA commanders toward the end of their posting do something crazy to earn some retirement brownie points?

Not that well aware of their internal dynamics.

But ccp as a whole is very political. Top members jostle for power and challenge the president often.

Some one in the higher up may well have moved against XI or acted on his own.

Ccp is under enormous pressure . Corona punishment is coming . Cold war is already here and wolf warrior thingy was stupid and backfired.

Those things are sure to have ramifications for ccp internal power struggles.
Chinese have broken deng xiopangs " bide your time " narrative. Old guard may strike back at new guard.

 

[HawkisRight]

First, what is the accuracy of their MLRS? Normal ballistic missiles with INS still have a rough accuracy of 40-80m CEP (And that means 50% probability missile will fall within the radius of 40-80 from target).

And that is the reason, artillery is always used in barrages, to increase the probability of shells/missiles landing on the correct target.

However, in the mountains, 80m offset means a huge distance and can mean more than 160 mtrs away.
Plus, mountain acts as a natural barrier, offering numerous natural bunkers/shelters in form of terrain, rocks, and crevices.

Steep valleys of Ladakh are very difficult to accurately target with artillery unless it has a top-down approach like cruise missile BrahMos.


But wait, don't just fall for the heavily exaggerated figure of range just yet!
Let's look at the claimed rocket first.

PCL 191

Notice the length of the missile ~ 6-7m.

Now look at BM-30 Smerch, Soviet MLRS

Length of the missile - 7.2m, thickness - 0.3m, range ~ 70-90km, warhead - 243kg.

Indian Prahaar missile -

Length of the missile - 7.3m, thickness - 0.42m, range ~ 150km, warhead - 200kg.

Now look at PC-191 claimed range - 350 km for a thickness of 0.35m.

Which means Prahaar has 35% more fuel space than PC-191 but has less than half the range of PC-191?

So, either PC-191 is carrying a grenade as a warhead, or this is just Chinese propaganda.

it's quite refreshing to see analytics sir

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Let me put it on record. Modi has miserably failed to do reforms in many sectors including defence. Now should we surrender to China and start barking like that scumbag Shukla who is last seen asking to disband Mountain corps and Ladakh based armoured divisions?

It is either an illiterate attempt or a mischievous agenda to talk reforms and conflate issues when enemy is at the gates.

I have always maintained that you can never satiate jingos when it comes to procuring military capabilities. I have argued so many time in the favour of Indian forces’ capabilities to fight two front war.

Repeatedly people have let us down during acute circumstances showing their defeatist mentality. So many posters have given example of Pakistan who is at war with bigger nation for so many decades to take a clue.

I simply ask, are you with our Soilder facing China or not? If your answer is yes! then use your intelligence on debating how we can harass China for a long duration at LAC.

The Chinese audacity or Pakistani audacity is not in their misreading of our capabilities but intent.

For god sake show some intent to fight, trust me it will start reflecting into your military leadership, politicians and eventually babus.

This

The deciding factor here is the will that can be provided top down from the political leaders as everything else is adequate or sometimes advantageous to our side.

This fight will not be decided largely on weapon systems and soldiers at the border but the daring of the political class.

You don't need expensive toys such as bombers,etc or wierd plans like bringing 50 is soldiers just conspire and do it like how you did kashmir 370 art removal.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Ok so as I said before here is a reason Chini has their panties in twist.

Todays Hindustan newspaper.

Center Govt is raising 14,500 kms strategic roads along border.

So 75% of work on the 3,200 kms Indo-China is already completed and remaining 25% is to be done in next 3 years since it's much difficult terrain.

So Chini knows if rest 25% is done they may have difficult in countering India and Chini are running out of time.



View attachment 49667

And look at Congress, they don't want 11,000 workers from Jharkhand to be given so road projects gets hampered. They are working for China and against Indian security.

View attachment 49668

Soren and congress have agreed now to send workers .. after BRO accepted to hire the tribals directly next year onwards, and not through contractors...

 

[IndianHawk]

First, what is the accuracy of their MLRS? Normal ballistic missiles with INS still have a rough accuracy of 40-80m CEP (And that means 50% probability missile will fall within the radius of 40-80 from target).

And that is the reason, artillery is always used in barrages, to increase the probability of shells/missiles landing on the correct target.

However, in the mountains, 80m offset means a huge distance and can mean more than 160 mtrs away.
Plus, mountain acts as a natural barrier, offering numerous natural bunkers/shelters in form of terrain, rocks, and crevices.

Steep valleys of Ladakh are very difficult to accurately target with artillery unless it has a top-down approach like cruise missile BrahMos.


But wait, don't just fall for the heavily exaggerated figure of range just yet!
Let's look at the claimed rocket first.

PCL 191

Notice the length of the missile ~ 6-7m.

Now look at BM-30 Smerch, Soviet MLRS

Length of the missile - 7.2m, thickness - 0.3m, range ~ 70-90km, warhead - 243kg.

Indian Prahaar missile -

Length of the missile - 7.3m, thickness - 0.42m, range ~ 150km, warhead - 200kg.

Now look at PC-191 claimed range - 350 km for a thickness of 0.35m.

Which means Prahaar has 35% more fuel space than PC-191 but has less than half the range of PC-191?

So, either PC-191 is carrying a grenade as a warhead, or this is just Chinese propaganda.

Yup those ranges are propaganda. Just like most of Chinese weaponry.
This trickery is part of communist strategy of vagueness and disinformation.

That's why when an iaf veteran says that a air war will expose china in a big way I believe him over all the broucher development of Chinese.