India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[scatterStorm]

In order to understand that you have to understand what is the crux of India China dispute.

China claims outer Tibet that is the entire Arunachal Pradesh.
Is it with Chinese - No.
Can China capture it - No.
Where is China occupying Indian territory > - Aksaichin?
Can India capture it ?
The answer is - yes.

From where and how ?

DBO is the place that is nearest to G219 - The Chinese road between Tibet and Xiniang. Throgh DBO plains and Karakoram river valley.
DBO has a tankable country to the west leading to the Chinese raod.
DBO is maintainable by road from Leh through Khardungla - Nubra Valley as also from Darbuk - Shyok valley.
DBO is air maintainable.
DBO - Karakoram Pass area is at the junction of Siachin, Aksaichin and territory ceded by Pakistan to China.
DBO is thus important for defence of Aksaichin as also for launching an offensive into Aksaichin.
That is why SSN is so important which the Chinese intend to cut off by intrusion at Galwan, Hot spring / Bogra and DBO areas... or wish to provide more depth to Aksaichin.

China does believe that India wants to take back Aksai Chin. It is India which is now coercing China and they are indeed afraid... If any battle does take place it bing to be around Galwan- Bogra- Trig Height - DBO...

Forget about PTSO which seems to be diversionary...

How can they counter us? Any map based your observations would be helpful.

 

[Sanglamorre]

for now i am filing it under "Overcompensating for their insecurities within".

Chinese version of the Yellow Humvee asshat lmao

 

[Dovah]

12,000 workers to be moved in special trains to complete vital infrastructure projects near China border amidst military standoff

The Ministry of Defence has asked for 11 special trains to transport around 12,000 workers from Jharkhand for road construction near the China border, reported Hindustan Times. The workers would be first taken to Jammu and Chandigarh and then ferried to regions close to the border areas in Uttarakhand, Ladakh, Himachal Pradesh, and Jammu and Kashmir.

The Government could not afford to lose time in the working season, which extends from May to November. They conceded that the standoff is uncertain and may continue for weeks. As such, pending road projects cannot be stalled for an indefinite period. Some work has already started on the strategic Darbuk-Shyok-Daulet Beg Oldie road in Ladakh.

Motr details here....

Road construction along China border to continue despite military standoff

11 special trains to carry 11,815 workers from Jharkhand to areas near China border to complete pending road protects by BRO | OpIndia News

www.opindia.com

We've been in deep slumber since decades, keeping the Chinese in good humour by not doing any construction activity at the border while the Chinese were going all out developing infrastructure at a frenetic pace. Needless to mention there was always that silly excuse why we did not want to construct roads etc there as 'it would facilitate movement of the Chinese'!!

But thankfully we've finally woken to the clear and present danger posed by the Chinese at the borders. Enough of the pacifist approach we've been following! Never mind if Gandhi is turning in his grave. In the present day we need to be realists and not romanticists and idealists living in a world of illusion.

If this is indeed true, then my doubts over the establishment's response were misplaced. Using this provocation to accelerate infra building instead of backing down is a welcome change. Hope it is not limited to road construction though, we need hardened bunkers and redundant airfields as well. A feasibility study for the construction of tunnels and railroad could be conducted too.

 

[Waanar]

I rather we get back Gilgit Baltistan, that gives us access to afghanistan,cut of china and pakistan which means end of CPEC, no more land route to indian ocean for china.Also the locals would be more welcoming.

Of course all this is a pipe dream.I pray we dont lose any territory in next 50 years.

Pardon my intrusiveness sir, but you're Indian, right? Which state if I may ask?

Also, in order to stay on topic, what makes you believe that Tibetis will be less welcoming than Gilgit civvies considering how Gilgit was declared a province of Pakistan on it's own will?

 

[ladder]

Mr. Ye Hailin is Chief editor of SOUTH ASIA STUDIES, National Institute of International Strategy,

No one can become India expert seating in China or being chaperoned to PLA camps.
To become one, one needs to develop a strong liking for 'nukkad wali kullad chai'.

 

[Gandaberunda]

Govt should provide this vehicle to patrol convoy in Ladhak. Our forces need to match armoured vehicles of PLA for effective patroling....

It is a purpose-built armored light specialist vehicle that can withstand Ballistic protection up to stage B7 and STANAG Level II.

 

[scatterStorm]

If this is indeed true, then my doubts over the establishment's response were misplaced. Using this provocation to accelerate infra building instead of backing down is a welcome change. Hope it is not limited to road construction though, we need hardened bunkers and redundant airfields as well. A feasibility study for the construction of tunnels and railroad could be conducted too.

Sir, that would mean putting good use to our labor force. But wouldn't they require training, but I definitely welcome this idea. If migrant labor force can build infra fast with quality, we truly are the winner here then.

 

[scatterStorm]

Govt should provide this vehicle to patrol convoy in Ladhak. Our forces need to match armoured vehicles of PLA for effective patroling....
View attachment 49021
It is a purpose-built armored light specialist vehicle that can withstand Ballistic protection up to stage B7 and STANAG Level II.

Let's just refrain from things that aren't coming in long time in this thread. We can discuss armor, jets etc which are already in use.

 

[Bhadra]

The intresting thing is, our Indian specialist from top thinktank Mr Ye Hailin thought it's designed from Modi admnistration:



Google translate:

@rockdog
Three essential judgment of China which are going to destroy China

# Destroy World economy by Wuhan Corona Virus while saving China of Wuhan virus - China but has not been able to control it.

# Take advantage of the situation and realize Chinese nationalist ambitions - Capture Taiwan, Amalgamate Hongkong, Dominate five dotted lines and consolidate defense of Tibet by attacking India. It is not going to succeed.

# Relegate India out of completion because it is the only country capable of rising and competing with China..... this time China is not going to succeed because of rising Indian economy.

These Chinese strategies have been read and all will be frustrated. Chinese dream of creating a new world order will be smashed.

Please tell Chinki generals and think tanks.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I hope they are in the plateau, but they can also be targeted by ATGM very easily if they try to enter a terrain which is restrictive. Considering the video we saw earlier, we can assume PLA would hide its troop in terrain and simply shoot and scoot.

Let just not underestimate our enemy here.

I'm no expert but let's just use some common sense here.

Judging by the terrain a war will see tactics like in Kargil.
A fully loaded armed team of 30 to 40 personnel will get on the highest position overlooking roads and camp their permanently. The weapons will be Sniper, DMR and LMG along with ATGM to hault any armour push.

 

[scatterStorm]

I'm no expert but let's just use some common sense here.

Judging by the terrain a war will see tactics like in Kargil.
A fully loaded armed team of 30 to 40 personnel will get on the highest position overlooking roads and camp their permanently. The weapons will be Sniper, DMR and LMG along with ATGM to hault any armour push.

True dat and howitzer cover, they can use there MBRLs too at certain locations where terrain in unrestrictive.

 

[Bhadra]

He is fit only to weigh eggs and check the belt of officer cadre

And say - Mere liye Hukam -LMG Ke Peechhe Line ban....

I do not know if you ever witnessed those joyful moments...

 

[rock127]

They're supposed to be bound by ROEs and also overstretch the government's funding. Militias provide a pretty big bang for the measly buck.

Just hand guns out, make sure they get food for the time being and assign them sectors guided by maybe the SOF members to make sure they get some semblance of training.

No matter how much you pour in the military, it'll never be able to surpass the numbers required to cover the huge landmass of Tibet to deny blind spots without abandoning some posts elsewhere.
The militia also ends any chance of heavy mobilization of airborne assets and soldiers by the Chinese, no matter what they do, puts any movement at a severe risk and... Yes of course, melding with the civilian population and getting bombed would tilt the world's meter in our favor and fan anti Chini sentiments in local Tibetis.

Train some of the more bright militia members in MANPADS for extra sweat of poor Chinese pilots and cover airspace where our regular radars might not have coverage or just to make doubly sure.

Even the militia will need a good screening procedure to make sure they don't think of every human with small eyes to be "Chinki saala" and don't have hotshots in the midst but overall, I see the benefits outweighing the losses.
An example-

Rohan ji is not going in this militia.


This will also bring a huge wave of nationalism among the people and could be used as the end all be all for the strategy of demographic change in PoK after the war. Please note-

Demographic change is IMPERATIVE if we don't want a repeat of constant bomb blasts across the country and an extended Counter insurgency period after merging those areas.

You think 26/11 was bad?
Imagine what will happen if we don't absolutely crush any chance of insurgency in the territories taken.

One thing is for sure..
Chinese are very sensitive to images of their soldiers or their soldiers being looked down upon (say from a height more than their position)... or someone looking into their eyes... They are used to images of one bowing his head thrice to the Chinese empower. Han ego is hurt easily..
Last time they lost image was in Vietnam...
It appears this time It is going to be Ladakh....
However, I repeat such things makes the tasks of negotiating team difficult where the Chinese officials virtually start shouting....

So what could be a reason we have not used Tibetians living in India to fight alongside IA? They have acclimatized for the terrain well.

They were used in 1971 war so why not now? Tibetians would be mentally more eager to fight off Chini.

[--Redacted--]

 

[ezsasa]

Let's just refrain from things that aren't coming in long time in this thread. We can discuss armor, jets etc which are already in use.

uparmoured scorpio will give the same level of protection as the vehicle they are using?

This would be for ITBP so no IA procurement procedures involved, mota bhai needs to sign off that's it.

 

[singhboy98]

Let's just refrain from things that aren't coming in long time in this thread. We can discuss armor, jets etc which are already in use.

Not necessarily though. If given the requisite orders, Tata Defense or Mahindra Defense could produce 1000s of these vehicles within a couple of months

 

[patriots]

PLA expands high-altitude arsenal to address border threat - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Channels

Chinese military expands high-altitude arsenal to address threat on China-India border
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/5/31 18:28:41
15

China reveals its new long range multiple rocket launcher at the National Day parade on October 1. Photo: IC



Since the Doklam standoff with India in 2017, the Chinese military has expanded its arsenal with weapons like the Type 15 tank, Z-20 helicopter and GJ-2 drone that should give China the advantage in high-altitude conflicts should they arise, Chinese analysts said on Sunday.

China's Type 15 tank made its public debut at the National Day military parade on October 1 last year.

With a powerful engine, the Type 15 lightweight main battle tank can effectively operate in plateau regions difficult for heavier tanks, and with its advanced fire control systems and 105 millimeter caliber armor-piercing main gun, it can outgun any other light armored vehicles at high elevations, the experts told the Global Times on Sunday.

China's most advanced vehicle-mounted howitzer, the PCL-181, also debuted at the parade.

At 25 tons, the PCL-181 is lighter, faster and can endure longer than the previous 40-ton self-propelled howitzer on crawler tracks.

It can digitally deploy its gun at the press of a button, with automatic calibration and semi-automatic reloading.

Both the Type 15 tank and the PCL-181 howitzer were displayed in the high-elevation plateau region of Southwest China's Tibet Autonomous Region in a China Central Television report on military exercises in January.

Another new weapon which debuted at the parade was a multiple-rocket launcher system, which uses an 8x8 wheeled high-mobility chassis and carries two sets of four 370-millimeter rockets, making it viable for high-altitude deployment, according to publicly available reports.

In the air, China unveiled the Z-20 utility helicopter at the parade. This medium-lift helicopter can adapt to all kinds of terrain and weather and can be used on missions including personnel and cargo transport, search and rescue and reconnaissance.

The Z-20 can operate in oxygen-depleted plateaus thanks to its powerful homemade engine, Chen Guang, vice general manager of Avicopter, the helicopter branch of Aviation Industry Corporation of China that developed the helicopter, told the Global Times previously.

Joining the Z-20 is the modified Z-8G large transport helicopter displayed at the Fifth China Helicopter Exposition held in Tianjin in October.

Focusing on plateau operations, the Z-8G is the first of its kind in China and can take off from 4,500 meters above sea level with a ceiling higher than 6,000 meters.

At Airshow China 2018, the Chinese Air Force unveiled the GJ-2 armed reconnaissance drone, which has a higher ceiling and can carry more payload than the previous GJ-1. Reports said it can be used to patrol the long border in high-altitude areas like Tibet.

These specially designed weapons have boosted the Chinese military's combat capabilities in high-altitude regions, enabling it to better safeguard national sovereignty and territorial integrity, Chinese analysts said.

Border incidents have recently occurred between troops of China and India.

Chinese border defense troops have bolstered border control measures and made necessary moves in response to India's recent, illegal construction of defense facilities across the border into Chinese territory in the Galwan Valley region in May.

Indian media reports said China recently deployed 5,000 more troops to the border area with India, and diplomats of the two countries have started talks on a peaceful resolution.

Chinese Defense Ministry spokesperson Ren Guoqiang said Friday at a regular press conference that the Chinese border defense troops are devoted to safeguarding peace and stability in the border regions and that the overall situation along China-India border was stable and under control.

The two countries are capable of resolving border issues through dialogue and negotiations, the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs said on Wednesday.

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[cyclops]

Govt should provide this vehicle to patrol convoy in Ladhak. Our forces need to match armoured vehicles of PLA for effective patroling....
View attachment 49021
It is a purpose-built armored light specialist vehicle that can withstand Ballistic protection up to stage B7 and STANAG Level II.

Well yes, we do need good armoured vehicles but let's not forget the training and morale of our guys.

Chinis basically got run over by our guys with riot gear and ran away leaving their LSVs &/or APCs behinds.
Shows how armoured vehicles cannot compensate for you(chinese) being a coward.

 

[Suryavanshi]

uparmoured scorpio will give the same level of protection as the vehicle they are using?

This would be for ITBP so no IA procurement procedures involved, mota bhai needs to sign off that's it.

No

Protection up to 7.62. Don't know about armour piercing round

.......................................

 

[singhboy98]

uparmoured scorpio will give the same level of protection as the vehicle they are using?

No. A Scorpio is essentially an SUV (and not a good one at that) primarily meant for civilian use. You can never modify it enough to fit the military's use. The design is 2 decades old. The layout of the 4WD system and the fuel tank is a totally shit from a POV of ballistic security desired for such vehicles.

 

[mokoman]

Pardon my intrusiveness sir, but you're Indian, right? Which state if I may ask?

Also, in order to stay on topic, what makes you believe that Tibetis will be less welcoming than Gilgit civvies considering how Gilgit was declared a province of Pakistan on it's own will?

I am from Kerala.

Sorry,I dont know anything about ground realities in tibet but I think they will welcome us .
But tibet isn't a disputed territory, Gilgit is,which means no international support but only condemnation.
Also I am no military expert,but how can we beat the PLA in Tibet and hold it?.

Gilgit on the other hand we could have gained back in 1971 itself (atleast as i understand it)