India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[daya]

I see what you did there.

he he he... replaced with raham...

 

[varun9509]

Dude please this is what really irks me be a fanboy but lets not be like stupid Paki J-17 type fanboys . Tejas has its own use and Rafale has its own . Comparing two is insult to both the products . Let me assure you again Tejas cant and won't be able to do what Rafale can achieve . Lets stick to Tejas for what it was meant to replace Mig-21, its not created to replace Su-30 MKI or even Mig-29k . Just that the baboons in HAL wants to give so much spin that everyone is import dalal every one is Sold out to white pussy is bullshit.

Even at this moment IAF will not put Tejas in any front line if situation goes worse . At the current state its best like advanced fighter trainer it has another decade time to catch up really to become a fighter what it was being claimed . a decade is a long time if you are not able to understand the value of time just look at our current situation china in border and paki ready to jump just tell me what will we be left to fight with what we have today not what HAL claims it will deliver.

Just look at how we are shitting on Kaveri revival . Saffran has asked for $500 Million investment but our Gorilla's in GTRE like why so much money to pay them we will deliver the same in $490 Million in 20 years time . Bloody import dalals bla bla . if saffran can help you build a engine in next 5-6 years with extra $10 million instead of our DPSU Baboons doing it in 20 years which sounds sensible investment ?

TIME TIME TIME is all that matters there is no point chest thumping in trying to re-invent the wheel when its already their just absorb the process and move ahead .

For God sake stop this Tejas Vs Rafale

I'm not comparing Tejas with Rafale. I am very well aware of Tejas category and Rafale category.

But in war-time people here are asking for emergency purchase of F21, Rafale and what not. In war time you want to depend on other countries' production capability? In war time we are waiting for jets to come even for fighting our own wars, when we have our own to handle at least one front on its own. Tejas production lines are here, we can scale it however we need, we have manpower, what's the use of it? If this event should teach us anything, is that we should have our own production capacity.

People here are wanting to buy Rafale in emergency. Who will pay for the extra manpower that is needed to upgrade their production capacity? That too on a jet that is already expensive. In war time, you want to loose your money buying production capacity for others? How effective a Rafale will be where 8-10 Jf17 fire at the same time? We need numbers and numbers are only acheived when we go on mass production of Tejas Mk1a. Tejas is cheaper, buy Rafale after that.

People here are wanting to buy F21, isn't this a completely new fighter for us? Won't it require a lot of time to put on the frontline. People here say, Tejas will take to mature as a fighter for frontline, but F21 will do that from day one?

I am well aware that Tejas is not the best fighter we have. But we have discussed in great lengths how it is more than enough for Pakistan. 5 billion usd for 83.

If you we really want to buy any jet in emergency start with Tejas, because it will help us achieve the numbers faster. This is all I'm saying.

 

[Synergy]

Hi guys.

I've been a lurker for a very long time. just registered here to share some thoughts. this is my first post.

firstly, was there any intelligence failure? - do we believe our army, defence, intelligence guys? was/is there any post of ours at those spots? do we have sats? - we should get the answer.
we the common men don't know something doesn't mean defence staffs and higher officials also don't know that.

after this fiasco, I was watching a press conference of probably of MEA, where he said, like "it's a long drawn process and we may see many changes including changes on the border including line of actual control." it may be in our advantage also.

do our govt has the guts to answer them or they prefer to remain silent? - incidents in recent past showed it prefers to answer. but according to our place of choice and time.

are we even trying to answer? - political and diplomatic developments are hinting that. for ex Mr Pompeo's statement or demand in WHA to find the source of Wuhan virus.
it might include military response also. but military response is not something like which we should start according to the wish of our enemy. there is no hurry. no harm in letting those spoilt kids worn out a bit.

as we all know, I'm not stressing on the points of motivation, quality and professionalism of their army and ours. we have also seen a glimpse of these in Galwan valley clash.

Indian Army is the king of mountain warfare and I don't think anybody will contradict that.
there are numerous ways to be safe from arty and mbrl shelling (in the mountainous terrains) but a valley like Galwan one is not an efficient choice among those.

as PLA has positioned themselves, if any conflict starts, they should be decimated and anybody even without any military background can understand that.

will US directly protect us in this episode? - nobody should do. and I think we are more than able to meet this challenge.

do we need shiny gizmos to fight this war? - SU 30 MKI is the best pre 5th gen air superiority fighter anybody has. it can easily dodge AIM120C salvo. and we all know actual quality of Chinese gizmos. so it should dodge Chinese missiles also. it's also detecting J20 for a long time.
but we need some ammunitions. if it becomes a long standing, then we'll also need planes but those which we operate. we might see some recently retired ones (if any dire need arises). but I'm not rulling out F16s. MKIs and F16s will be a deadly combo.

another thing I'd like to point out, a mainstream actress and her look alike doing any b grade film, is not same or similar (quality wise).
building roads, dams, tunnels are different than building super sophisticated military weapons.
though I'm not in a mood to underestimate them, but if they were so efficient, then they would not go for building look alikes rather they would start building something superb.
whenever they tried something on their own, we got JF17 and I'm not qualified enough to judge the quality of that.

nobody sane enough will dream about teach India a lesson with 1.5/2 lakh troops. (ott, US attacked Iraq with 3 lakh+ troops).
It was just for showing of power but that escalated due to Galwan valley incident. now they are trying badly to save their face but that's not easy either. so there may be a war and China isn't prepared for that (just like us).

will we see a 2 front war? - though unlikely but that may happen. but will USA allow that to happen?
this is not any border conflict between India and China. it's a show of power. right now it's also a challenge to US. it's to show other allies that see US can't protect you. so come with us.

now our defence forces have authorization to act as they deem fit. have a faith on those people. they are well educated, well informed and among the best brains of our country. so what they will do, will definitely be good for our country.

please pardon me if I've written something wrong. I'm not a defence expert.

 

[ARVION]

I'm not comparing Tejas with Rafale. I am very well aware of Tejas category and Rafale category.

But in war-time people here are asking for emergency purchase of F21, Rafale and what not. In war time you want to depend on other countries' production capability? In war time we are waiting for jets to come even for fighting our own wars, when we have our own to handle at least one front on its own. Tejas production lines are here, we can scale it however we need, we have manpower, what's the use of it? If this should event should teach us anything, is that we should have our own production capacity.

People here are wanting to buy Rafale in emergency. Who will pay for the extra manpower that is needed to upgrade their production capacity? That too on a jet that is already expensive. In war time, you want to loose your money buying production capacity for others? How effective a Rafale will be where 8-10 Jf17 fire at the same time? We need numbers and numbers are only acheived when we go on mass production of Tejas Mk1a. Tejas is much inexpensive, buy Rafale after that.

People here are wanting to buy F21, isn't this a completely new fighter for us? Won't it require a lot of time to put on the frontline. People here say, Tejas will take to mature as a fighter for frontline, but F21 will do that from day one?

I am well aware that Tejas is not the best fighter we have. But we have discussed in great lengths how it is more than enough for Pakistan. 5 billion usd for 83. If you we really want to buy any jet in emergency start with Tejas, because it will help us achieve the numbers faster.

This is all I'm saying.

The cost of 35,000 crores is just not the coat of the aircraft but also the cost of the weapons and ammunitions support etc the fly away cost is 280 to 300 crores per aircraft roughly to 23,500 to 25,000 crores for all 83 MK 1A aircrafts but if we all able to replace all the Israeli and western equipments with indigenous ones on the aircraft we could able to reduce the cost further

 

[JBH22]

Hi guys.

I've been a lurker for a very long time. just registered here to share some thoughts. this is my first post.

firstly, was there any intelligence failure? - do we believe our army, defence, intelligence guys? was/is there any post of ours at those spots? do we have sats? - we should get the answer.
we the common men don't know something doesn't mean defence staffs and higher officials also don't know that.

after this fiasco, I was watching a press conference of probably of MEA, where he said, like "it's a long drawn process and we may see many changes including changes on the border including line of actual control." it may be in our advantage also.

do our govt has the guts to answer them or they prefer to remain silent? - incidents in recent past showed it prefers to answer. but according to our place of choice and time.

are we even trying to answer? - political and diplomatic developments are hinting that. for ex Mr Pompeo's statement or demand in WHA to find the source of Wuhan virus.
it might include military response also. but military response is not something like which we should start according to the wish of our enemy. there is no hurry. no harm in letting those spoilt kids worn out a bit.

as we all know, I'm not stressing on the points of motivation, quality and professionalism of their army and ours. we have also seen a glimpse of these in Galwan valley clash.

Indian Army is the king of mountain warfare and I don't think anybody will contradict that.
there are numerous ways to be safe from arty and mbrl shelling (in the mountainous terrains) but a valley like Galwan one is not an efficient choice among those.

as PLA has positioned themselves, if any conflict starts, they should be decimated and anybody even without any military background can understand that.

will US directly protect us in this episode? - nobody should do. and I think we are more than able to meet this challenge.

do we need shiny gizmos to fight this war? - SU 30 MKI is the best pre 5th gen air superiority fighter anybody has. it can easily dodge AIM120C salvo. and we all know actual quality of Chinese gizmos. so it should dodge Chinese missiles also. it's also detecting J20 for a long time.
but we need some ammunitions. if it becomes a long standing, then we'll also need planes but those which we operate. we might see some recently retired ones (if any dire need arises). but I'm not rulling out F16s. MKIs and F16s will be a deadly combo.

another thing I'd like to point out, a mainstream actress and her look alike doing any b grade film, is not same or similar (quality wise).
building roads, dams, tunnels are different than building super sophisticated military weapons.
though I'm not in a mood to underestimate them, but if they were so efficient, then they would not go for building look alikes rather they would start building something superb.
whenever they tried something on their own, we got JF17 and I'm not qualified enough to judge the quality of that.

nobody sane enough will dream about teach India a lesson with 1.5/2 lakh troops. (ott, US attacked Iraq with 3 lakh+ troops).
It was just for showing of power but that escalated due to Galwan valley incident. now they are trying badly to save their face but that's not easy either. so there may be a war and China isn't prepared for that (just like us).

will we see a 2 front war? - though unlikely but that may happen. but will USA allow that to happen?
this is not any border conflict between India and China. it's a show of power. right now it's also a challenge to US. it's to show other allies that see US can't protect you. so come with us.

now our defence forces have authorization to act as they deem fit. have a faith on those people. they are well educated, well informed and among the best brains of our country. so what they will do, will definitely be good for our country.

please pardon me if I've written something wrong. I'm not a defence expert.

I agree with your points but you are visualising the scenario of full military conflict.
In the Chinese case they will do snatch and sit on territory. Meaning border skirmish, short but meaningful strike.
It serves two purpose quashing India aspirations of matching it thus making LAC quiet and secondly messaging Asian nations and whole world the QUAD plans is no longer viable to challenge Chinese supremacy

 

[Tactical Frog]

France has retired most of its M2K , Few they have are all Nuclear delivery platforms which they will never sell to anyone . So forget getting any M2K from france . if we really want We can ask Taiwan they have good number of M2k or may be from UAE or Greece . But everyone are having limited numbers UAE is busy in yemen war . Greece is facing issues with turkey , Taiwan offcourse waiting for invasion from china . So who is going to sell their M2K in such situations

Our Late lateef Babus and Lethargic Baboons in HAL have gone great disservice to the nation and its people by sitting on placing orders and doing slow moving productions

Just imagine how ordering Rafale 12 months early would have played now, if UPA had placed an order or worse even BJP-1 had placed the order right when they came to power we would have had rafales flying with us now and even pilots and SOPs and training would have all been done .

Now we are desperately waiting for rafale to land even if they come how much we can use them against PAF or PLAAF is a question only IAF will be able to answer.

French airforce is still operating some 30 Mirage 2000-5 for CAP and 70 Mirage 2000-D. The 2000-N (nuclear role) has been retired.

I am sorry but I don’t think that France will lease any Mirage 2000 to India. Real politik. Yet I can be wrong ...

Don’t overestimate the Chinese airforce. IAF is like a tiger with its with 250 Sukhoi -30 mki and highly skilled and trained pilots. It is the Chinese who should be scared !

 

[ladder]

Chinese building helipad in Pangong Tso, massing troops on southern bank of lake

This includes undertaking construction of a helipad at Finger 4 and a sudden increase of Chinese troops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso.

Chinese building helipad in Pangong Tso, massing troops on southern bank of lake

This has led to apprehensions that the Chinese are asserting their claims and conveying their disinclination for restoration of status quo ante in the area.

www.google.com

 

[Synergy]

I agree with your points but you are visualising the scenario of full military conflict.
In the Chinese case they will do snatch and sit on territory. Meaning border skirmish, short but meaningful strike.
It serves two purpose quashing India aspirations of matching it thus making LAC quiet and secondly messaging Asian nations and whole world the QUAD plans is no longer viable to challenge Chinese supremacy

Sir exactly.
completely agreed.
but will we make that (snatch and sit) happen?
then atleast we will also snatch and sit in any other location and that will be like a mythbusters of Dragon.

 

[JBH22]

Sir exactly.
completely agreed.
but will we make that (snatch and sit) happen?
then atleast we will also snatch and sit in any other location and that will be like a mythbusters of Dragon.

That no one can tell. But a set of patterns being established, with a more assertive India conflict will happen one day or another.
Question is are we using the peace days fully to eliminate all weaknesses.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

French airforce is still operating some 30 Mirage 2000-5 for CAP and 70 Mirage 2000-D. The 2000-N (nuclear role) has been retired.

I am sorry but I don’t think that France will lease any Mirage 2000 to India. Real politik. Yet I can be wrong ...

Don’t overestimate the Chinese airforce. IAF is like a tiger with its with 250 Sukhoi -30 mki and highly skilled and trained pilots. It is the Chinese who should be scared !

Its china plus pakistan scenario that will stretch the IAF

 

[captscooby81]

What we are seeing today is complete 70 years of police paralysis of our chinese policy . Nothing else we were the same in 1959 and we are the same even today . I think one man who had understood china and sadly couldn't do much as he himself was not alive for long was Sardar patel . He had clearly envisioned the thread china was and what it will be in future .

To many EAM babus who had stint in peking where given to much importance in our china policy result of it was the snake oil sold to politicians that having a trade with china will save our ass the balloon got busted finally in May 2020 .

I just hope these peking parrots don't give another snake oil to govt saying giving CPEC line via mumbai will placate china such type bull shit . Lets the political class wake up from their deep sleep and look at what is staring at them and take some sensible decisions

its not Nehru's India or its not Modi's India which will be defeated it will be people's india our collective psyche will be crushed for decades to come . We have to stand up for the 1000 years of civilisation what we are not merely for stupid secular identity created in last 50-60 years .

Yawnnn... wake me if the shooting starts. Most probably we will allow Russia to broker a solution .... and if we do unfortunately it will probably mean that we allow the Chinese to stay put in a large number of areas they have intruded in. After all that happened, it would be really sad if we loose control of the entire Galwan valley though. From all that I have seen from the govt so far and the way it has been trying to portray that there have been no intrusions I don’t think Our political leadership has the stomach to take on the Chinese. I wouldn’t entirely blame this govt though. All of our govts have pussy footed around the Chinese. Having said that, the PM might surprise us.

It’s all very well for us armchair generals to say go to war. War is brutal and there is a price to pay. Unfortunately if we give in this time the Chinese won’t stop and will just keep on coming.

We should have foreseen his after Doklam. We were naive to think that the Chinese would take the Doklam humiliation sitting down.

 

[WARREN SS]

France has retired most of its M2K , Few they have are all Nuclear delivery platforms which they will never sell to anyone . So forget getting any M2K from france . if we really want We can ask Taiwan they have good number of M2k or may be from UAE or Greece . But everyone are having limited numbers UAE is busy in yemen war . Greece is facing issues with turkey , Taiwan offcourse waiting for invasion from china . So who is going to sell their M2K in such situations

Our Late lateef Babus and Lethargic Baboons in HAL have gone great disservice to the nation and its people by sitting on placing orders and doing slow moving productions

Just imagine how ordering Rafale 12 months early would have played now, if UPA had placed an order or worse even BJP-1 had placed the order right when they came to power we would have had rafales flying with us now and even pilots and SOPs and training would have all been done .

Now we are desperately waiting for rafale to land even if they come how much we can use them against PAF or PLAAF is a question only IAF will be able to answer.

They retired mirage-2000 IN 75N + in 2018 Which were Alo for nuclear role They also has M2k C version 28
Recently

Rafale is much better nuclear platform With ASMP-A for French

• Saint-Dizier – Robinson Air Base
  • Escadron de chasse 2/4 "La Fayette" (2018–present)nuclear strike
  • Escadron de Chasse 1/7 "Provence" (2006–2016)[ multirole fighter
  • Escadron de Chasse 1/4 "Gascogne" (2009–present) nuclear strike
  • Escadron de Transformation Rafale 3/4 "Aquitaine" (October 2010–present, Rafale Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) jointly operated by French Air Force and French naval Aviation)

Than Mirage-2000

French has 70 mirage-2000 D But they are Due to there Retirement by Next 2-3 years Like N

 

[Cheran]

Hi guys.

I've been a lurker for a very long time. just registered here to share some thoughts. this is my first post.

firstly, was there any intelligence failure? - do we believe our army, defence, intelligence guys? was/is there any post of ours at those spots? do we have sats? - we should get the answer.
we the common men don't know something doesn't mean defence staffs and higher officials also don't know that.

after this fiasco, I was watching a press conference of probably of MEA, where he said, like "it's a long drawn process and we may see many changes including changes on the border including line of actual control." it may be in our advantage also.

do our govt has the guts to answer them or they prefer to remain silent? - incidents in recent past showed it prefers to answer. but according to our place of choice and time.

are we even trying to answer? - political and diplomatic developments are hinting that. for ex Mr Pompeo's statement or demand in WHA to find the source of Wuhan virus.
it might include military response also. but military response is not something like which we should start according to the wish of our enemy. there is no hurry. no harm in letting those spoilt kids worn out a bit.

as we all know, I'm not stressing on the points of motivation, quality and professionalism of their army and ours. we have also seen a glimpse of these in Galwan valley clash.

Indian Army is the king of mountain warfare and I don't think anybody will contradict that.
there are numerous ways to be safe from arty and mbrl shelling (in the mountainous terrains) but a valley like Galwan one is not an efficient choice among those.

as PLA has positioned themselves, if any conflict starts, they should be decimated and anybody even without any military background can understand that.

will US directly protect us in this episode? - nobody should do. and I think we are more than able to meet this challenge.

do we need shiny gizmos to fight this war? - SU 30 MKI is the best pre 5th gen air superiority fighter anybody has. it can easily dodge AIM120C salvo. and we all know actual quality of Chinese gizmos. so it should dodge Chinese missiles also. it's also detecting J20 for a long time.
but we need some ammunitions. if it becomes a long standing, then we'll also need planes but those which we operate. we might see some recently retired ones (if any dire need arises). but I'm not rulling out F16s. MKIs and F16s will be a deadly combo.

another thing I'd like to point out, a mainstream actress and her look alike doing any b grade film, is not same or similar (quality wise).
building roads, dams, tunnels are different than building super sophisticated military weapons.
though I'm not in a mood to underestimate them, but if they were so efficient, then they would not go for building look alikes rather they would start building something superb.
whenever they tried something on their own, we got JF17 and I'm not qualified enough to judge the quality of that.

nobody sane enough will dream about teach India a lesson with 1.5/2 lakh troops. (ott, US attacked Iraq with 3 lakh+ troops).
It was just for showing of power but that escalated due to Galwan valley incident. now they are trying badly to save their face but that's not easy either. so there may be a war and China isn't prepared for that (just like us).

will we see a 2 front war? - though unlikely but that may happen. but will USA allow that to happen?
this is not any border conflict between India and China. it's a show of power. right now it's also a challenge to US. it's to show other allies that see US can't protect you. so come with us.

now our defence forces have authorization to act as they deem fit. have a faith on those people. they are well educated, well informed and among the best brains of our country. so what they will do, will definitely be good for our country.

please pardon me if I've written something wrong. I'm not a defence expert.

1. It would be prudent to believe that there was a failure in intelligence with respect to the current scenario as the agencies did not connect the dots/analyze that such a situation would arise
2. If things go south, US might provide specific intelligence that can help us but this might come at a price
3. We did not develop our infrastructure at the border, this is a collective failure of all governments
4. Even though we patrolled till F8 our claim was not strong, the Chinese have built roads & other structures there. This has been happening since the last 25 years, we should have objected to this
5. 2.5 front war (full fledged) might be unlikely but cannot be ruled out as well. USA might try to prevent this as things could get really bad as in mushroom cloud level bad, since India will do/use whatever weapons it has to maintain territorial integrity
6. China believes that it has reached a state wherein it can wage, control and possibly win a war with India. A win, for China, would be an announcement to the world that it is ready to take on the USA & that all smaller Asian countries need to fall in place
7. China believes that India (a nuclear power) would be shown its place & that it should not get too uppity

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

They retired mirage-2000 IN 75N + in 2018 Which were Alo for nuclear role They also has M2k C version 28
Recently

Rafale is much better nuclear platform With ASMP-A for French

• Saint-Dizier – Robinson Air Base
  • Escadron de chasse 2/4 "La Fayette" (2018–present)nuclear strike
  • Escadron de Chasse 1/7 "Provence" (2006–2016)[ multirole fighter
  • Escadron de Chasse 1/4 "Gascogne" (2009–present) nuclear strike
  • Escadron de Transformation Rafale 3/4 "Aquitaine" (October 2010–present, Rafale Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) jointly operated by French Air Force and French naval Aviation)

Than Mirage-2000

French has 70 mirage-2000 D But they are Due to there Retirement by Next 2-3 years Like N

France sold 2 mirages to India few years ago at € 2mn plus €1mn transportation cost per mirage.

India should really look to buy the entire fleet if France agrees.

 

[garg_bharat]

I agree with your points but you are visualising the scenario of full military conflict.
In the Chinese case they will do snatch and sit on territory. Meaning border skirmish, short but meaningful strike.
It serves two purpose quashing India aspirations of matching it thus making LAC quiet and secondly messaging Asian nations and whole world the QUAD plans is no longer viable to challenge Chinese supremacy

Quad can be very powerful if USA commits to it.

Defeating China now will make USA secure till 2050. Else USA will not last beyond 2030.

 

[WARREN SS]

France sold 2 mirages to India few years ago at € 2mn plus €1mn transportation cost per mirage.

India should really look to buy the entire fleet if France agrees.

Yes We have to Build Our own capacity Now Repeat Order of 20 more LCA MK1 FOC .Maintenance contract Should be given To Private Players Like L&T

60 LCA by 2021-2022 +70 Mirage-2000(if we get +21(11)Mig-29 upg & MKI
in Next 1-2

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Despite what anyone says, we lack the numbers innIAF for a 2 front war.

 

[ARVION]

Despite what anyone says, we lack the numbers innIAF for a 2 front war.

But we nee to rectify it

 

[cereal killer]

France sold 2 mirages to India few years ago at € 2mn plus €1mn transportation cost per mirage.

India should really look to buy the entire fleet if France agrees.

Yeah we must try some Mirage 2000 as emergency procurement. Rafale will come in due time & cannot be used in this emergency time anyways. In case of a 2 front war IAF will be really stretched so an extra Mirage Squadron can be very handy.

 

[A chauhan]

Despite what anyone says, we lack the numbers innIAF for a 2 front war.

Yeah, Despite what anyone says, Tejas is a potent fighter aircraft which can be used to fill up the numbers. That's the most easiest way to deal with lack of squadrons. Why assembly lines haven't been doubled I cannot say.