Tank Guns and Ammunition

[The Last Stand]

looks like they study failed soviet ideas...

How are jacketed penetrators failed ideas?

 

[The Last Stand]

Seeing that this has been stagnant for more than a month, here it is:

Estimation of KE-W A3 penetrator length:

KE-W A2 and A3 have the same penetrator length and weight, but A3 variant has different propellant and 50 m/s more muzzle velocity.

Seeing that performance of KE-W A2 is 660 mm at 2 km from the L/44 barrel, KE-W A3 should reach 680-700 mm at 2 km from same barrel and should have more performance from the L/55 barrel.

Links: http://www.defmunintl.com/Brochures/120mm KE-W A2 APFSDS-T_DMI.pdf
http://www.defmunintl.com/Brochures/120mm KE-W A3 APFSDS-T_DMI.pdf

@Damian, looks like you didn't notice the extra muzzle velocity before

 

[The Last Stand]

@Dazzler and @farhan_9909 a special for you )

Type-IIM penetrator. Possibly underestimated since I just assumed the visible part as diameter. A fellow on tank net suggested it is around 580 mm.

Of course, this is not a short penetrator, rather, it is very long considering the dimensions of AZ autoloader.

Round: 679 mm
Penetrator length: 569 mm
Projectile itself? (tip+fins) should be around 650 mm.

Performance should be 600 mm+.

Regards

Keshav

 

[farhan_9909]

@Dazzler and @farhan_9909 a special for you )

Type-IIM penetrator. Possibly underestimated since I just assumed the visible part as diameter. A fellow on tank net suggested it is around 580 mm.

Of course, this is not a short penetrator, rather, it is very long considering the dimensions of AZ autoloader.

Round: 679 mm
Penetrator length: 569 mm
Projectile itself? (tip+fins) should be around 650 mm.

Performance should be 600 mm+.

Regards

Keshav

Does Pakistan has this round?or just china

 

[The Last Stand]

Does Pakistan has this round?or just china

I don't know, ask Dazzler.

 

[militarysta]

@Dazzler and @farhan_9909 a special for you )

Type-IIM penetrator. Possibly underestimated since I just assumed the visible part as diameter. A fellow on tank net suggested it is around 580 mm.

Of course, this is not a short penetrator, rather, it is very long considering the dimensions of AZ autoloader.

Round: 679 mm
Penetrator length: 569 mm
Projectile itself? (tip+fins) should be around 650 mm.

Performance should be 600 mm+.

Regards

Keshav

I had explain this in topic about Al-Chalid (Khalid?)



I masured this APFSDS round on 3 quite good photos (two are above) and we have:

Projectile lenght: 630-650mm
penetrator (rod) lenght: 560-580mm

for compare 3BM42 Mango penetrator lenght: 574mm



Performance should be smaller then 600mm RHA at 2000m. Those round is Chinesse clon of the 3BM42 Mango - even if it's slighty longer and whit stronger propelant charge then it shoud be circa 550mm RHA on 2000m. I doubt if more.

 

[Dazzler]

Does Pakistan has this round?or just china

@Keshav Murali, @farhan_9909


both type2 and later type2M are in service with Pak Army, both have been improved penetrators with type2M (Pak Army version) approximate penetration given as 620-650mm @ 2000 meter at 0 deg.

It must be noted that POF changed the penetrators of both i.e. improved tungsten rod designed by local engineers. There were some problems with Chinese penetrators as they broke in the autoloader frequently so we had to modify both the autoloader and the shells.


Here is the original type2m brochure that was supplied.

The same round is also supplied to Bangladesh and Morocco who bought MBT 2000

 

[farhan_9909]

@Keshav Murali, @farhan_9909


both type2 and later type2M are in service with Pak Army, both have been improved penetrators with type2M (Pak Army version) approximate penetration given as 620-650mm @ 2000 meter at 0 deg.

It must be noted that POF changed the penetrators of both i.e. improved tungsten rod designed by local engineers. There were some problems with Chinese penetrators as they broke in the autoloader frequently so we had to modify both the autoloader and the shells.


Here is the original type2m brochure that was supplied.

The same round is also supplied to Bangladesh and Morocco who bought MBT 2000

Bangladesh to buy Al khalid simulator from pakistani MVRDE.
the crew was also trained in pakistan

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler and @farhan_9909 a special for you )

Type-IIM penetrator. Possibly underestimated since I just assumed the visible part as diameter. A fellow on tank net suggested it is around 580 mm.

Of course, this is not a short penetrator, rather, it is very long considering the dimensions of AZ autoloader.

Round: 679 mm
Penetrator length: 569 mm
Projectile itself? (tip+fins) should be around 650 mm.

Performance should be 600 mm+.

Regards

Keshav

@Keshav Murali

Here is the Janes article on Type-2 rod, NOT Type-2M, you have seen it but i guess it makes sense to post again since the basic version has 600 mm penetration value


Janes, this is Type-I and II, not Type-IIM... Also to be noted that this round has roots in Israeli CL series not Russian 3BM-42 Mango

NORINCO 125 mm APFSDS-T rounds are separate loading munitions. They are loaded into the breech surrounded, behind the sabot assembly, by an integral combustible propellant charge in a combustible case and followed by a semi-combustible propellant case.

On both the 125-I and 125-II, a light alloy sabot assembly consists of a three-segment sabot and the monobloc tungsten alloy penetrator rod forming the projectile. The penetrator rod and the sabot are interfaced by a series of mating buttresses and the sabot is encircled by a plastic slipping obturator ring.

The 125-I penetrator rod has a diameter of 28 mm, is 554 mm long (length-to-diameter ratio approximately 19.8:1) and weighs 4.03 kg. The penetrator rod has a light alloy windshield over the nose and a light alloy six-finned fin assembly at the rear. It is assumed that the fin assembly contains a tracer element. The 125-II projectile assembly weighs 7.44 kg, with the penetrator rod being 26 mm in diameter.

The two-component propellant system is carried over from the design of the RFAS 125 mm APFSDS-T. Both components are encased in what is described as a flammable nitrocellulose paper tube impregnated with TNT which is totally consumed on firing. A steel stub case, weighing 3.4 kg and containing the electrical primer, remains to be ejected after firing. The case is 140 mm long and has a flange diameter of 171.9 mm. Muzzle velocity of the 125-I is 1,730 m/s.

Armour penetration against vertical armour at 2,000 m is 460 mm and direct fire range is more than 2,100 m. It has been stated that the projectile can penetrate 220 mm of homogeneous armour set at an angle of 61.5º at a range of 2,000 m, with `good after effects'. At a range of 1,000 m dispersion is of the order of 300 × 300 mm.
Muzzle velocity for the 125-II is 1,740 m/s. Armour penetration at 2,000 m is 600 mm.

Specifications

Weights:

projectile with propellant charge - 23 kg

projectile with sabot, 125-I - 7.37 kg

projectile with sabot, 125-II - 7.44 kg

projectile, 125-I - 4.03 kg

stub case - 3.4 kg

Lengths:

projectile with propellant charge - 672 mm

basic propellant assembly - 407 mm

projectile - 554 mm

Diameter of projectile:

125-I - 28 mm

125-II - 26 mm

Muzzle velocity:

125-I - 1,730 m/s

125-II -1,740 m/s

Operational temperature: -40 to +50ºC


Source: http://www.-----------/forums/pakis...t-2000-information-pool-34.html#ixzz2bevulQE6

 

[The Last Stand]

Performance should be smaller then 600mm RHA at 2000m. Those round is Chinesse clon of the 3BM42 Mango - even if it's slighty longer and whit stronger propelant charge then it shoud be circa 550mm RHA on 2000m. I doubt if more.

Certified or predicted average?

I meant predicted average values.

 

[Dazzler]

Asstt Secretary Defense Richard Adams analysis of Chinese penetrators

America AFV nemesis - Revealed Chinese New penetrators

U.S. Asian and Pacific Affairs Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard labor Adams (Richard Lawless) said that Afghanistan and Iraq is suspected, "Made in China penetrators" can easily destroy the U.S. military "Hummer" tanks and other heavy armored vehicles, leading to major U.S. military casualties.



China's new high-strength armor-piercing ability why? Let us uncover its working principle and secrets.



Armor-piercing projectile is to rely on strength, weight and speed of armor-piercing shells, all of them long with an extremely sturdy and hard skull, are tanks, aircraft, warships, armored vehicles nemesis. Deal with concrete fortifications, more than enough. Modern penetrator warhead very sharp, slender missile body, made of steel alloy, tungsten alloy or depleted uranium alloy steel, high strength.

Easily breakdown armor piercing reason is because:



First, it is particularly strong elastic body by steel or tungsten, uranium alloys are made "‹"‹of elastomer front are solid, as well as cracking tank, not afraid to hit the target in an instant crush or break.



Second, it's high speed, through the energy, able to penetrate the thick armor and streamlined shape, and comes with extended fuse, and then in the drilling target internal explosion.



Third, it's shooting accuracy, coupled with the body are streamlined, to reduce air resistance in flight, suddenly a direct hit tanks or aircraft activities such goals.

To improve the long-rod APFSDS performance, but also developed a high-density uranium alloys (U.S. depleted uranium penetrators) and tungsten alloy (China 99 penetrators) making armor-piercing bomb core, armor-piercing ability stronger, especially in uranium armor-piercing bomb core drilling in hard armor warheads, can instantly generate high temperature above 1000 ℃, the local armor melted, issue boiled blazing light. Tungsten alloy cost only half of all countries attach importance to the development of the missile types.



Can easily destroy the U.S. military "Hummer" tanks and other heavy armored vehicles made "‹"‹in China new armor-piercing bombs, shape similar to Bangalore in a metal tube filled with explosives, in the mouth at one end there is a launch special metal plate tilting. When the metal tube gunpowder was detonated, the transmitter on the mouth of the metal disk to the target flying at high speed and to change shape during flight, it becomes like a bullet spikes, with high temperatures close to the melting point of penetration of various types armor, causing the car personnel casualties. Not only the U.S. military's "Hummer" chariot can not resist such a bomb, and even "Abrams" main battle tank will sometimes be penetrated.

美装甲战车克星——揭密中国新穿甲弹 - zhangfeng的日志 - 网易博客

 

[Dazzler]

@militarysta, @Keshav Murali, @methos, @Damian


measure the rod again plz

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler and @farhan_9909 a special for you )

Type-IIM penetrator. Possibly underestimated since I just assumed the visible part as diameter. A fellow on tank net suggested it is around 580 mm.

Of course, this is not a short penetrator, rather, it is very long considering the dimensions of AZ autoloader.

Round: 679 mm
Penetrator length: 569 mm
Projectile itself? (tip+fins) should be around 650 mm.

Performance should be 600 mm+.

Regards

Keshav

NOTE: please stop misquoting me on different forums, i saw your posts making outrageous claims from my side like i claimed 850-950 mm penetration for Type-98/99 deries and what not. Why on earth would i say such a thing when i know the reaily? If you cant present a factual thing, dont quote me.

Thanks

 

[Dazzler]

Quoting Usman Shabbir, a wellknown insider among domestic circles. He visited HIT and POF in particular witnessed tank/ antitank ammunition manufacturing process......

I had the pleasure of visiting POF in January 2004. In total there are 14 factories, and each factory is huge and is located xx kilometers away from other factories so one can not visit all of them in one day.

Since I only had one day to spare I picked the Anti-Tank Ammunition Factory and Small Arms Factory. At the Anti-Tank Ammunition Factory, I saw the complete process of manufacturing the APFSDS/T rounds. There was a chemical engineer from the factory, who was my guide and explained everything in great technical detail, though half of it past over my head.

According to him the current round (back then in 2003/2004) had a penetration capability of 460 mm against RHA at 2000 m and that there is going to be a new round entering service in 2005 with a penetration capability of 550 mm against RHA at 2000 m. He also mentioned that they have recently tested a new DU round, rod of which is made by PAEC (Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission) and that this new DU round has been certified to have a penetration capability of 620 mm against RHA at 2000 m.

I also asked him about the cooperation with the Chinese in manufacturing anti-tank ammo and he acknowledged that we have a very good working relationship with them. In fact he told me that recently POF had modified the cartridge case of 125 MM APFSDS/T which has allowed them to be used from auto loaders of both T-80UDs and Al-Khalid.

According to him the new design schematic was also shared with Chinese. The round with new cartridge case is known as “kan kata” (Ear Cut) in Pakistan Army service as the base of the modified cartridge now resembles a half-cut human ear.

here is one..

 

[The Last Stand]

NOTE: please stop misquoting me on different forums, i saw your posts making outrageous claims from my side like i claimed 850-950 mm penetration for Type-98/99 deries and what not. Why on earth would i say such a thing when i know the reaily? If you cant present a factual thing, dont quote me.

Thanks

I did not mean you, but one at def.pk whom I don't like. Not you.

 

[militarysta]

@Keshav Murali, @farhan_9909


both type2 and later type2M are in service with Pak Army, both have been improved penetrators with type2M (Pak Army version) approximate penetration given as 620-650mm @ 2000 meter at 0 deg.

It must be noted that POF changed the penetrators of both i.e. improved tungsten rod designed by local engineers. There were some problems with Chinese penetrators as they broke in the autoloader frequently so we had to modify both the autoloader and the shells.


Here is the original type2m brochure that was supplied.

The same round is also supplied to Bangladesh and Morocco who bought MBT 2000

220mm RHA at 66@ means that this round have circa 500mm RHA at 2000m, not 600mm... (If I count this correct).
What more - psyhical dimension do not allowed (for this APFSDS) to overpas circa 500mm RHA value.

 

[militarysta]

@Keshav Murali

Here is the Janes article on Type-2 rod, NOT Type-2M, you have seen it but i guess it makes sense to post again since the basic version has 600 mm penetration value
)

Rather not:

Armour penetration against vertical armour at 2,000 m is 460 mm

So 460mm RHA at 90. at 2000m

It has been stated that the projectile can penetrate 220 mm of homogeneous armour set at an angle of 61.5º at a range of 2,000 m,

So 220mm RHA at 61@ what give us directly 460mm RHA at 90. at 2000m

Both values are correct.

Armour penetration at 2,000 m is 600 mm.

Here term "armour" do not mean "RHA" or "homogoneus armour" or other. It's unkown value, and not consider whit two previous values.


What more - whit such small lenght:

projectile - 554 mm

You can forgot about better then given values.

 

[Dazzler]

Rather not:

So 460mm RHA at 90. at 2000m


So 220mm RHA at 61@ what give us directly 460mm RHA at 90. at 2000m

Both values are correct.


Here term "armour" do not mean "RHA" or "homogoneus armour" or other. It's unkown value, and not consider whit two previous values.


What more - whit such small lenght:

You can forgot about better then given values.

which version should i take? Although i was never a fan of pixel count but still its fun

The above or This?

someone on Tanknet had this to say...

Type-IIM is advanced by Chinese standards, but the quoted performance (600mm RHAe) and the size of the round (650mm) makes it closer to older 120mm options. It's still better than what the Chinese got from Russia for their 125mm gun. We do know that there was a longer L/55 gun tested in some of the Type-99A2 prototypes (easy to spot thanks to three thermal jacket segments in front of bore evacuator vs two in regular guns), so it's possible there's another round with better performance. However, that is irrelevant. The 99A2s in service lack the new gun. They all have the exact same gun as the previous 99s.

What MV and diameter (only a rough diameter needed, it has little effect)? 650mm LoS penetration wouldn't be too far off, DM-53 for one penetrates about 1/6th more than it's length from the L55 by my reckoning.

 

[Dazzler]

here is something about Naiza, as per Janes, its range is 25% higher than the 105 mm DU round produced by POF

460 + 25% (115) = 575 mm @ 2000 m @ 0 obliquity

Defence & Security Intelligence & Analysis - IHS Jane's 360
9 May 2001 Pakistan joins DU producer nations

Among the exhibits at IDEX 2001 was a model of the new 125mm armor-piercing
fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) projectile with a depleted uranium
(DU) long-rod penetrator, which is being developed by the Pakistani National
Development Complex (NDC) for use with T-80UD tanks.

It follows the development of a DU round for the Pakistan Army's
Chinese-designed T-59 tanks, which have been re-armed with 105mm guns and
currently fire a license-built version of the British L64A4 tungsten APFSDS
projectile. The latter is credited with a range of 4km against a NATO single
heavy target. The 105mm DU APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1,450m/s
and can penetrate more than 450mm of rolled homogenous armor at 2000 meter.

The performance of the 125mm round is said to be 25% greater. A noticeable
feature of the saddle-type sabots of the NDC 125mm projectile and of the
Norinco 125mm tungsten APFSDS projectiles (now being license-produced by
Pakistan Ordnance Factories) is the reconfiguration of their forward
bore-riders so that the projectiles align accurately with the autoloading
system of the T-80UD.

(It was reported in 1998 that unspecified 'loadability' problems had arisen
between Chinese projectiles and Ukrainian autoloaders. The same problem is
not thought to have been encountered with the loading systems of the 125mm
smoothbore guns mounted in Chinese Type 85-IIAP tanks.)

Among the exhibits at IDEX 2001 was a model of the new 125mm armor-piercing
fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) projectile with a depleted uranium
(DU) long-rod penetrator, which is being developed by the Pakistani National
Development Complex (NDC) for use with T-80UD tanks.

Copyright 2003 Jane's Information Group. All rights reserved.

 

[Dazzler]

I did not mean you, but one at def.pk whom I don't like. Not you.

i am not that dumb buddy, you also posted the Type-85III/ 96 schematics and quoted me on that.