Tank Guns and Ammunition

[militarysta]

The above or This?

This is my answer on typical internet bullshit from chineese propaganda. China have very strong internet propaganda in internet full of the nonsense about tanks, gun, ammo. In all this topics there is no mirracle and country without strong and modern gun and ammo industry (China) can't be better (have better ammo and guns) then countries whit decades expirience and very advanced tehnologies (Swizterland, Germany, USA, Russia, GB, maybe Israel)
So on this picture I just shown that unable to achive in China sucht big values (over 650mm RHA at 2000m) now couse no sigle avaible to transfer ammo is better now:

1. Israeli 125mm CL 3579 Mk.2 have no more then 550mm RHA at 2000m at 90. plate. In Poland those ammo have circa 500-530mm RHA at 90. at 2000m (Pronit). Very advanced modernisation whit ultralight composite sabot can achive 610mm RHA at 2000m but its during developed an it will be not introduced. So it's max what is possible to achive from "Israeli 125mm branch"
2. Ammo from Russia - here we have all 3BM42 Mango clones. Again - penetration between 460 and 520mm RH at 2000m for 90. plate. Those ammo went to china. There is no single mantioned that more modern then "Mango" ammo went to China (for example 3BM42M Lekalyo - 600-650mm RHA at 2000m at 90.)
3. Pak. ammo is estimatous at 460mm at 2000m (old naiza)
So more or less there is no single ammo which can be "base" (copy) for China - Israeli is to weak, old pakistani ones is to weak, russian Mango is to weak. All those ammo is circa 500-550mm RHA at 2000m at 90. So there is no option for china to copy sucht round.
The only excluded think is 3Bm42M Lekalyo round - this round was ready in circa 1998 but not introduced to service in Russia do to developed better Sniviets-1 and 2 round. So if Lekaloy went to China then indeed level 600-650mm RHA at 2000m is possible in China. But 3Bm42M is to long to standard AZ casette autoloader. More or less the max level for China is clone of the Lekaloy if Russia/Ukraina sold technology to China in other way - it's imposible.

 

[militarysta]

here is something about Naiza, as per Janes, its range is 25% higher than the 105 mm DU round produced by POF

460 + 25% (115) = 575 mm @ 2000 m @ 0 obliquity

What, what, what?

The 105mm DU APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1,450m/s
and can penetrate more than 450mm of rolled homogenous armor at 2000 meter.

The performance of the 125mm round is said to be 25% greater.

450mm x 1.25 = 560mm

560mm RHA at 2000m at 90. And this level is comfirmend in for example polish military press for new Naiza DU round (circa 550mm).

 

[Dazzler]

This is my answer on typical internet bullshit from chineese propaganda. China have very strong internet propaganda in internet full of the nonsense about tanks, gun, ammo. In all this topics there is no mirracle and country without strong and modern gun and ammo industry (China) can't be better (have better ammo and guns) then countries whit decades expirience and very advanced tehnologies (Swizterland, Germany, USA, Russia, GB, maybe Israel)
So on this picture I just shown that unable to achive in China sucht big values (over 650mm RHA at 2000m) now couse no sigle avaible to transfer ammo is better now:

1. Israeli 125mm CL 3579 Mk.2 have no more then 550mm RHA at 2000m at 90. plate. In Poland those ammo have circa 500-530mm RHA at 90. at 2000m (Pronit). Very advanced modernisation whit ultralight composite sabot can achive 610mm RHA at 2000m but its during developed an it will be not introduced. So it's max what is possible to achive from "Israeli 125mm branch"
2. Ammo from Russia - here we have all 3BM42 Mango clones. Again - penetration between 460 and 520mm RH at 2000m for 90. plate. Those ammo went to china. There is no single mantioned that more modern then "Mango" ammo went to China (for example 3BM42M Lekalyo - 600-650mm RHA at 2000m at 90.)
3. Pak. ammo is estimatous at 460mm at 2000m (old naiza)
So more or less there is no single ammo which can be "base" (copy) for China - Israeli is to weak, old pakistani ones is to weak, russian Mango is to weak. All those ammo is circa 500-550mm RHA at 2000m at 90. So there is no option for china to copy sucht round.
The only excluded think is 3Bm42M Lekalyo round - this round was ready in circa 1998 but not introduced to service in Russia do to developed better Sniviets-1 and 2 round. So if Lekaloy went to China then indeed level 600-650mm RHA at 2000m is possible in China. But 3Bm42M is to long to standard AZ casette autoloader. More or less the max level for China is clone of the Lekaloy if Russia/Ukraina sold technology to China in other way - it's imposible.

never knew Janes was a Chinese media propaganda machine

The sources quoted here by Janes are Pakistani not Chinese, BIG difference between the two.

by the way, 450 * 1.25 = 562.5

 

[militarysta]

never knew Janes was a Chinese media propaganda machine

The sources quoted here by Janes are Pakistani not Chinese, BIG difference between the two.
:

never knew Janes was a Chinese media propaganda machine

Just checkt what is written on janes, and what values are them posted
And what I posted about Israeli and Mango clones, and 3BM42M (lekalyo) level.

 

[The Last Stand]

i am not that dumb buddy, you also posted the Type-85III/ 96 schematics and quoted me on that.

I meant you for the Type-85/96, but not the ammunition.

I don't consider you dumb.

However, it is your opinion, and if I cannot change that, I don't care what you think.

 

[The Last Stand]

never knew Janes was a Chinese media propaganda machine

The sources quoted here by Janes are Pakistani not Chinese, BIG difference between the two.

by the way, 450 * 1.25 = 562.5

Jane's is not exactly known for accuracy. People use it so that they can get preliminary values and good images.

Oh, and 2.5 mm difference isn't really that much to troll militarysta

 

[Dazzler]

Jane's is not exactly known for accuracy. People use it so that they can get preliminary values and good images.

Oh, and 2.5 mm difference isn't really that much to troll militarysta

Janes is way more credible than Andrei Chang and Kanwa nonsense.

I also have an ACIG report on the same DU round, with same figures quoted but i see no point to force the issue. However, i cant deny what i have seen with eyes @ Ideas 2008 and few other events. That's why i don't really care about pixel measurements.

An educated discussion is always welcomed

 

[Damian]

Janes is not 100% reliable, because this is a nature of this type of media. Most authors there do not perform their own research but are preaty much ok with official statements, such official statements are not nececary truth, especially when it comes to ammunition penetration capabilities.

 

[militarysta]

More or less all avaible evidence shown that China is able to produce APFSDS whit at least 550mm RHA at 2000m (90.) perforation. It's sure, becouse avaible photos shown us penetrator and projectiles whit psyhical dimension on level between 3BM42 Mango and CL3579 Mk.2 so all is consist.

Some sources give Chinesse APFSDS bigger value - up to 600mm RHA - it's possible IMHO if avaible in China CL3579 Mk.2 and 3BM42 clones where modernisated whit stronger propelant charge, longer barrel, or better sabot. So this level is possible, but still we haven't photo "long enought" APFSDS to say this without doubt. But as I said - it's really posible that Chineese APFSDS achive those 600mm RHA at 2000m at 90.

Other sources give Chinesse APFSDS some completly stupid values 700-800-900mm RHA bla bla bla. It's bllshit and no way that Chineese industry is able to produce serial sucht rounds.
Only exeptetion for bigger then 600mm RHA at 2000m can be technology transfer from Russia (or other country) to China - for example witch 3BM42M Lakalyo. But there is no single evidense of sucht action!

 

[Dazzler]

With due respect to all members...

Actually when it comes to media reports, no source is 100% reliable, there is some cooking gone here and there for sure

The reason why i insist on a round with more than 600 mm penetration value (Pakistan specific) is what i have seen myself and its something i cant possibly find on the net. Chinese tungsten rounds had plenty of issues with accuracy and penetration. So much so that the penetrator used to break when fired in some cases.

POF, NDC began work to improve this, Now before someone kill me, its known as a local modification of a license produced round, looks like a Type-IIM with longer tungsten rod though i wasnt allowed to measure it but was told its around 620-650 mm. It fits the modified AK carousel which has 29 modifications done to accommodate the round. HEAT and HE-FS are also newly designed for AK and AZ mbts.

They also have another DU round with more penetration value than Naiza-1 but there is nothing more said on this matter. Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission/ NDC and POF are actively working on at least two more such rounds, one with tungsten and one with a DU rod but its fate currently is not known.

Bottom line is, they will NEVER show those rounds to any defense exhibitions but only the well known one with 460 mm penetration and DU with 550-560 mm penetration which is already known.

 

[farhan_9909]

even those rounds with 550mm confirm penetration are good incase of indian armour.

might not be extremely good but they can if hit at right place.

 

[Dazzler]

2a46 with recoil assembly..

earliest T-72s

T-72B1

T-72 BV Morocco

 

[Damian]

T-72 BV Morocco

Incorrect designation, it is only T-72B, T-72B1/B2/B3 or T-72BA. There was never such designation as T-72BV.

 

[militarysta]

BTW: I see no sense in posting rubbish photos in topic about tank gun and ammo

 

[Dazzler]

 

[Dazzler]

3BM-22 Iran

 

[Dazzler]

reference to Naiza-2 APFSDS round (650 mm @ 2000 m) from official DESTO site...(Defense Science & Technology Organization is an active R&D specialist and a subsidiary of HIT)

The tank's armament is the same, but it has been made more lethal through the addition of more effective supporting systems. The autoloader maintains it's speed of loading at 8-rounds a minute, but the carousel now holds 28 rounds, allowing more rounds to be stowed at ready. The new indigenous Niaza-II 125mm DU round (penetration: 650mm at 2,000m) is a significant improvement to the older Niaza rounds on the Al-Khalid. This is partially achieved through a longer penetration rod.

Upgrading the Al-Khalid to Comparable Standard:
The Al-Khalid tank was specifically designed with modularity in mind. As a result, the Niaza-II will be employed on the tank, once significant numbers are manufactured.

In addition, the armor has been upgraded to Al-Khalid II standards (roughly). An upgrade package for the Al-Khalid has been designated Al-Khalid IB, this will probably be employed on all Al-Khalid MBTs eventually.

Defence Science & Technology Organization (DESTO) (21c)

 

[farhan_9909]

reference to Naiza-2 APFSDS round (650 mm @ 2000 m) from official DESTO site...(Defense Science & Technology Organization is an active R&D specialist and a subsidiary of HIT)





Defence Science & Technology Organization (DESTO) (21c)

incredible find.i take the word of Desto as equal to the words of gospel

DESTO is also responsible for the development of hardkill aps for Al khalid and t-80ud

 

[The Last Stand]

incredible find.i take the word of Desto as equal to the words of gospel

DESTO is also responsible for the development of hardkill aps for Al khalid and t-80ud

What? Can we have images of this APS on the MBT thread?

Or are you claiming Varta is your invention?

 

[farhan_9909]

What? Can we have images of this APS on the MBT thread?

Or are you claiming Varta is your invention?

in development.from a 2008 source.

Pics are not available neither will be until deployed on the tanks