Tank Guns and Ammunition

[The Last Stand]

Somthing from cold war history, CR1 ammo taken from manuals (posted on Andriiej blog and otvaga)

Nice. Do you have something of this sort for Centurion?

 

[militarysta]

Nice. Do you have something of this sort for Centurion?

Unofortunatly I haven't this


British CR1 and CR2 ammo:

IMPORTANT!!!
Mesurmants are not accurate! The error is between 5-10%!
The mesurment where not taken from those lines on pictures -it's not based on those lines, but other draws on photos. Due to poor perspective picture error is rather big 5-10%, given values are max possible and takne from several mesurments. Sorry for sucht inaccurate draws -but even this is better then nothing Place when rod (penetrator) is ended is taken from cit-draw hosted in previous post (L23A1).

 

[militarysta]

THE ROLE OF TANKS AND DIRECTIONS OF THEIR MODERNIZA-TION IN THE ASPECT OF CONTEMPORARY ASYMMETRICAL CONFLICTS–PART I AMMUNITION

http://www.witu.mil.pl/www/biuletyn/zeszyty/20120122p/7.pdf

Key words (tags): tank, asymmetrical conflict, tank ammunition, LEOPARD 2A4 HE (PZ-511), APAM, APAM M329 Kalanit, DM 11, DM 173 ,
HE-T Nammo, HEAT-MP M830, PELE, M1028 Canister,

AMMUNITION WITH HE SHELLS FOR 2A4 LEOPARD TANKS USED BY THE POLISH ARMY

http://www.witu.mil.pl/www/biuletyn/zeszyty/20120122p/29.pdf

http://www.witu.mil.pl/www/biuletyn/zeszyty/20120121p/51.pdf

Keywords (tags): ammunition, leopard, tank, cartridge, shell, fuze, primer, powder, charge, Leopard-2 120mm L-44, HE (PZ-511),
HE-TP (PZ-521),

Abstract: Requirements and limitations taken into account at designing HE ammunition for 120 mm tank guns are presented in
the paper. The design and outline of functioning with technical characteris-tics of ammunition were also presented

FIELD TESTS OF LIVE AND TRAINING CARTRIDGES WITH HIGH EXPLOSIVE-FRAGMENTATION PROJECTILES FOR LEOPARD
TANK 2A4 MAIN GUN

http://www.witu.mil.pl/www/biuletyn/zeszyty/20120121p/59.pdf

Abstract:Some results of field tests of live (PZ-511) and training cartridges (PZ-521) with high ex-plosive-fragmentation projectiles designated for LEOPARD 2A4 tank 120 mm gun are presented in the paper. The ammunition was developed by the Military Institute of Armament Technology and put into the manufacture process at the Works of Special Production in Pionki.

Key words(tags): Leopard, tank, cartridge, projectile, gun, cartridge, shell, fuze, primer, powder, charge, Leopard-2 120mm L-44, HE (PZ-511),
HE-TP (PZ-521),

 

[The Last Stand]

@methos, @Damian, @militarysta

Damian mentioned 125 mm Ukrainian "Vitiaz" which is supposed to have 760 mm penetration here:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...le-tanks-armour-technology-86.html#post318394

Do you have any sources for this?

Tanknet thread mentions that Ukraine has two new guns: "125 - Vityaz" and "140 - Bagira".

What is "Vitiaz"? Tank gun or 125 mm round or both

Supposedly the gun can fire KE round at 2000+ metres/second. One poster said max muzzle velocity achieved by conventional propellants is 1700-800 m/s while other stated upto 2700 m/s can be achieved but consistency and efficiency is low.



They gave no sources for their claims on 140 mm gun, can you provide some on the guns and ammo for me? (If the exist)

Also, one thread on strategypage claims Ukraine supplied "Vitiaz" gun to China for Type 98.

Too many questions, eh?

New Main Guns - 125mm Vitiaz, 140mm Bagira - Armor Scientific Forum - Tanknet

 

[Akim]

Also, one thread on strategypage claims Ukraine supplied "Vitiaz" gun to China for Type 98.

Tank gun "Vityaz" not series produced, and in China is not supplied. Generally it is a powerful weapon. Muzzle energy 2А46М (KBA3) = 11,2 MJ, Rh-120/L44 = 11,8 MJ. Tank gun "Vityaz" has a muzzle energy = 14,42 MJ. the same long than 2А46М.

http://kbao.com.ua/tankovaja_pushka_50l_vitjaz.html

 

[The Last Stand]

Tank gun "Vityaz" not series produced, and in China is not supplied. Generally it is a powerful weapon. Muzzle energy 2А46М (KBA3) = 11,2 MJ, Rh-120/L44 = 11,8 MJ. Tank gun "Vityaz" has a muzzle energy = 14,42 MJ. the same long than 2А46М.

Танковая пушка 55Л «Витязь», танк Т 64, Т 72, Т 80УД, Т 84 (Киев, Украина)

Thanks sir! I thought Vitiaz was a myth

 

[Andrei_bt]

Improved again.

Concerning "20-30% for single, and 40-60% for double"
Maybe some Soviet style thick APFSDS may have chance to ramain 5-10% of their penetration, but comparatively thin NATO-style will be redu8ced to 0%.
It sounds unbelevable, but it was results of test when 3 rounds were fired from "Leclerc".

 

[The Last Stand]

Concerning "20-30% for single, and 40-60% for double"
Maybe some Soviet style thick APFSDS may have chance to ramain 5-10% of their penetration, but comparatively thin NATO-style will be redu8ced to 0%.
It sounds unbelevable, but it was results of test when 3 rounds were fired from "Leclerc".

Incredible, I never thought linear shaped charges can obliterate a penetrator completely :shocked:

Also, sir, as I requested, can you provide images and information on modern Ukrainian APFSDS and Russian 3BM59/60? I'd be much obliged.

 

[Andrei_bt]

This video has shots of new Russian APFSDS - Andrei-bt - Научно-исследовательский машиностроительный институт and pictures - Andrei-bt - БПС «свинец», «грифель» и пр.
Ukrainian rounds - http://btvt.narod.ru/4/bps.files/konchar-2.jpg http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3274/fr1ph3.jpg http://btvt.narod.ru/4/bps.files/rogach.jpg

 

[militarysta]

It sounds unbelevable, but it was results of test when 3 rounds were fired from "Leclerc".

Andriej, both of us known that Duplet and Knife was tested agiasnt M332 and OLF F1 - both where modern on the begining of the 1990s but not in 2000.
In fact OLF F1 is clon of the DM43 which was rejected by Germans as to weak to perforate modern ERA armour. In fact there are no solutions to overpas ERA included in DM43 and OLF F1. So sucht result is not suprise. The same 3BM42 whit 3 parts is not modern.

5-10% of their penetration, but comparatively thin NATO-style will be redu8ced to 0%.

Those % in my table was given as for Czech EFA armour when couple of the SC linears are ignit by active indicator - so EFA SC are able to hit rod (penetrator) in optimum distance from armour. In Knife/Duplet we haven't sucht optimalization like in EFA.
EFA biggest efectivnes against APFSDS was 30% -but it's APS based on linear SC only.
IMHO Dubplet and Knife are more sophisticated in working mehansim.
I suppose that casette whit only SC linears can't be effective as EFA - becouse it's haven't optimum distance from penetrator. So it's impossible to achive better result, but IMHO Knife casette (brick) is the same important as inner casette (bax) whit linears only.
I think that Knife Duplet is working on two levels in the same time:
1) APFSDS hit casette, penetrate external plate, linear SC internal casette and hit in one SC. The reaction in internal SC casette is starting.
2) all SC linears start exploding but only first 2-3 after those one SC hit by rod are danger, becouse only the closer ones have propper distance and thay are able to "cut" penetrator (rod) next to the hit place. And for that place working mehanism is not very diffrent from EFA mehanism, exept mucht whorse distance and optimlaisation, but:
3) rest (all) SC durnig exploding are cut external Knife/Duplet casette on mettal debrits whit thickness circa 8mm, lenght egual to casette width, and width equalt to distance between linear placed SC. So whole Knife casette is cut in that shape:
=
=
=
=
=
And those quite heavy metal plates (in shape circa ractangle) are blow out and moved in to APFSDS direction - perpendicular to the flight path, so they are hitting penetrator (previously separated from hit place and firs circa 5-10% it's lenght by first 2-3 SC) and moved it, crushed and breake.
In the other way: internal SC casette is not better then EFA armour, but combination explode SC internal casette and external casette (turned by explodes SC linears in to moving heavy debrits) is dedly for penetrator.
Cold or hot Andriej?

 

[Andrei_bt]

Rounds designed to overcome ERA were designed and tested on it's conventional variants with frontal throwing plate or double acting plates.
It's no importance how segmented the round is for SC based ERA. But of course 100% guaranty may be during test, and I bet germans won't agree to give their rounds because of above mentioned.

Czech EFA armour when couple of the SC linears are ignit by active indicator

looks like return of something tested back in 50-s in USSR. also some such ideas still floating in developer's minds. It is to complex for ERA.

"cut" penetrator (rod) next to the hit place

"cuting" is a result as well as deflection of round by impact of SC.

 

[militarysta]

Rounds designed to overcome ERA were designed and tested on it's conventional variants with frontal throwing plate or double acting plates. .

Indeed, Kontakt-5 fails against DM53/63 relikt will do the same.

btw: Can You answer if my descripsion Knife/Duplet working mehanism is correct or not?

 

[militarysta]

Exmaple difrences between monoblock penetrator and monoblock but jacket in diffrent alloys penetrator after pasing simple NERA (3mm RHA +3mm rubber + 3mm RHA) all in microscale of course (1:5).
After passing those primitive NERA layers monoblock rods and few of the monoblock whit to thin jacket are braking. For the opposite - WHA monoblock rods whit quite thick jacket are not breaking.

 

[hest]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Anti-Tank Guided Missile..

 

[Austin]

So Sokol-1 and SAMHO are similar weapons in different caliber or are they different in some way ?

 

[hest]

Sokol-1 is an artillery round sustained by rocket motor during later phase for tank smoothbore which can engage armour from 12 km.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some feature of SAMHO / CLGM absent on other..

1. Top attack mode.
2. Tandem Warhead.
3. Indirect Fire.

 

[Akim]

So Sokol-1 and SAMHO are similar weapons in different caliber or are they different in some way ?

Laser guidance is different. There are active and passive. Length of the laser waves are also different. There are many factors, that determine the difference.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Exmaple difrences between monoblock penetrator and monoblock but jacket in diffrent alloys penetrator after pasing simple NERA (3mm RHA +3mm rubber + 3mm RHA) all in microscale of course (1:5).
After passing those primitive NERA layers monoblock rods and few of the monoblock whit to thin jacket are braking. For the opposite - WHA monoblock rods whit quite thick jacket are not breaking.

looks like they study failed soviet ideas...