Tank Guns and Ammunition

[pmaitra]

No it's not. DU advantage is only 10% max. And what is the most important - DU performs better only against cast steel or stack RHA plates, agains modern multilayerd targets WHA alloys perform better. And now we can ask what looks modern tank armour.

Modern WHA rods have adiabatic shear during penetration. So now ther left only one DU advantage - it's guite cheap metarial.

Thanks. That is what I am trying to figure out. Should India invest in Sabots, and what they should use for the penetrator. I also did not know that DU is cheaper than some WHA alloys. Very interesting.

 

[militarysta]

Thanks. That is what I am trying to figure out. Should India invest in Sabots, and what they should use for the penetrator. I also did not know that DU is cheaper than some WHA alloys. Very interesting.

Yes, DU was mucht cheaper during Cold War becouse it is natural "by-product" of the production of nuclear power plants. And indeed in whole 80's DU perform slighty better against cast steel and stack RHA plates then WHA rods. But this is past. Now we have two, adverse for Du rods, facts:
a) any cywilizated tank dindustry left cast steel turrets and there is no typical stack of RHA plates or chuge number cast steel inide tank armour. It have sens against T-72B or T-80U but not agianst modern multilayerd armour whit NERA, cermics and other layers. In case that kind of armour WHA rods perform slighty better.
b) modern WHA alloys rods have those adiabatic shear during penetration...

What shoud use India? It's depend only in Indian industry technology abilities. I suppose that DU rounds will be mucht simpler and chaper then good WHA alloys rods. India had own nuke industry, so its able to have DU.
Modern WHA rods have very good abilities but some country whit advanced WHA industry must share whit India how-know. If not -I suppose DU way is more safe and easier.

 

[Damian]

Other thing are completely new types of metal alloys, for example amorphic alloys. If we can create amorphic alloy of steel, why not amorphic alloy of WHA or DU? Such alloys can give some new possibilities, combined with other materials or amorphic alloys of other metals, both in kinetic energy ammunition and armor protection.

 

[The Last Stand]

Yes, DU was much cheaper during Cold War becouse it is natural "by-product" of the production of nuclear power plants. And indeed in whole 80's DU perform slighty better against cast steel and stack RHA plates then WHA rods. But this is past. Now we have two, adverse for Du rods, facts:
a) any cywilizated tank dindustry left cast steel turrets and there is no typical stack of RHA plates or chuge number cast steel inide tank armour. It have sens against T-72B or T-80U but not agianst modern multilayerd armour whit NERA, cermics and other layers. In case that kind of armour WHA rods perform slighty better.
b) modern WHA alloys rods have those adiabatic shear during penetration...

What shoud use India? It's depend only in Indian industry technology abilities. I suppose that DU rounds will be mucht simpler and chaper then good WHA alloys rods. India had own nuke industry, so its able to have DU.
Modern WHA rods have very good abilities but some country whit advanced WHA industry must share whit India how-know. If not -I suppose DU way is more safe and easier.

India has nuclear facilities all right but we import Uranium as it is not found in our country. Russia might supply DU but it will be in small quantities. PMO might not approve usage of DU. Since we have lot of thorium, India is trying to switch to Thorium which is many times better than Uranium for nuclear power plants but useless for nukes.

Regards,
Keshav

 

[farhan_9909]

@militarysta

CAn NAIZA series rounds be termed as the most powerful APFSDS in South asia? with Penetration power of 550mm at 2km?

and followed by more powerful ARDE rounds in future(still under development)

 

[militarysta]

Whole APFSDS definetly not when you want to use term " South Asia" becouse Singapour Leo-2 are using DM-63. The same Korean K-2 tank is using quite modern home-made South Koreean 120mm APFSDS ammo based on DM43. Both rounds have, better abilites then 125mm rounds using in Asia. We can't forget about Austarlian Abrams* - KEW-A2 is more potent then other 125mm rounds in Asia.

But if You are asking about only 125mm APFSDS ammo then it's on top used in Asia 125mm APSFSDS ammo.
Polish PRONIT, israeli Cl.Mk2, Indian clone of IMI round - all of them have guaranteed 500mm RHA at 2000m and achivable 550mm RHA at 2000m.
If Pakistani round have guaranteed 550mm RHA and achivable better value - then it is better. But we shoudn't forget about chineese 125mm ammo - avaible in China ammo can achive 600mm RHA at 2000m.

Short: Naiza is definetly not the most powerfull APFSDS ammo in Asia -couse DM-63 in Singapour and KEW-A2 in Asutralia, and South Korean clone of the DM43.
But in term "125mm APFSDS" is one of the top - only Chineese shoud achive more (~600mm RHA at 2000m), rest ammo used in South Asia (Iranian, Indian, Malesia, older Chineese) is whorse then Naiza rounds -if Naiza can achive 550mm guaranteed perforation - not achivable). If those 550mm RHA is achivable then Nazia is the same as polish Pronit or Indian 125mm...

*Damian -any inos about ustrallian tank ammo?

 

[farhan_9909]

Whole APFSDS definetly not when you want to use term " South Asia" becouse Singapour Leo-2 are using DM-63. The same Korean K-2 tank is using quite modern home-made South Koreean 120mm APFSDS ammo based on DM43. Both rounds have, better abilites then 125mm rounds using in Asia. We can't forget about Austarlian Abrams* - KEW-A2 is more potent then other 125mm rounds in Asia.

But if You are asking about only 125mm APFSDS ammo then it's on top used in Asia 125mm APSFSDS ammo.
Polish PRONIT, israeli Cl.Mk2, Indian clone of IMI round - all of them have guaranteed 500mm RHA at 2000m and achivable 550mm RHA at 2000m.
If Pakistani round have guaranteed 550mm RHA and achivable better value - then it is better. But we shoudn't forget about chineese 125mm ammo - avaible in China ammo can achive 600mm RHA at 2000m.

Short: Naiza is definetly not the most powerfull APFSDS ammo in Asia -couse DM-63 in Singapour and KEW-A2 in Asutralia, and South Korean clone of the DM43.
But in term "125mm APFSDS" is one of the top - only Chineese shoud achive more (~600mm RHA at 2000m), rest ammo used in South Asia (Iranian, Indian, Malesia, older Chineese) is whorse then Naiza rounds -if Naiza can achive 550mm guaranteed perforation - not achivable). If those 550mm RHA is achivable then Nazia is the same as polish Pronit or Indian 125mm...

*Damian -any inos about ustrallian tank ammo?

No doubt there are many superior THan Naiza in asia
but i meant in south asia(India,pakistan,bangladesh,sri lanka and bhuton) only


the most latest round by ARDE has a different design and is claimed to have better penetration than all the existing APFSDS within Pakistan

 

[The Last Stand]

No doubt there are many superior THan Naiza in asia
but i meant in south asia(India,pakistan,bangladesh,sri lanka and bhuton) only


the most latest round by ARDE has a different design and is claimed to have better penetration than all the existing APFSDS within Pakistan

Few questions -

Sorry for poor illustrations- Le me worst artist in school and this was done in 2 minutes.



1) What is the length of the penetrator, first piece and the second piece and also the complete length farhan ?

2) The penetrator can't be very long now can it @militarysta? Surely Pakistan is not as advanced in DU alloys as US or Russia so the maximum penetration of this new round will achieve will have to be lesser than 3BM46 Svinets (Thank God), am I right ? @Damian @methos.


@farhan_9909, if you give the penetrator length and the total length of the round, militarysta can estimate its abilities.

3) Which is better, 3BM42M "Lekalo" or 3BM46 "Svinets"

Regards,
Keshav

 

[militarysta]

im doing now new APFSDS table give me sevral hours and l wil be clear

 

[farhan_9909]

I have no more detail about this new round

Except that it feature a new design and better penetration capabilities than the existing apfsds of pakistan
..

The design indeed is different..look at the penetrator

naiza

Now this one..

 

[The Last Stand]

I have no more detail about this new round

Except that it feature a new design and better penetration capabilities than the existing apfsds of pakistan
..

The design indeed is different..look at the penetrator

naiza

Now this one..

Naiza looks like western APFSDS. The New one looks like our Israeli clones for T-72

 

[farhan_9909]

Naiza looks like western APFSDS. The New one looks like our Israeli clones for T-72

naiza was introduced in 2001 in ideas def expo 2001

.

A new 125 mm anti-tank DU round called Naiza was being displayed (including some other DU rounds by other Pakistani companies) by Al-Technique. The Naiza is said to have a penetration of 550 mm in RHA. It has been made compatible with T-80UD tanks.

The anti-tank 125 mm ammo produced by POF has been claimed to have better capabilities then there Ukrainian and Chinese counterparts.

Highlights from IDEAS 2002
while the latest one last year

 

[methos]

the most latest round by ARDE has a different design and is claimed to have better penetration than all the existing APFSDS within Pakistan

I doubt that this is a modern/new APFSDS: it uses a ring-type sabot. This type of sabot was used on the earliest Soviet APFSDS and was abandoned in the 1980s.

1) What is the length of the penetrator, first piece and the second piece and also the complete length farhan ?

The length of the penetrator is depending on how deep the round is seated in the propellant charges. You rescaled the projectile incorrectly, that's why I thought it would be surprisingly long. But in fact it is shorter than 600 mm.

2) The penetrator can't be very long now can it

Typically the projectile does not touch the bottom of the propellant charge (especially for APFSDS with ring-type sabots). The tip and the tracer also take up some space in the APFSDS, so the penetrator length probably isn't very big.

Surely Pakistan is not as advanced in DU alloys as US or Russia ...

Most DU alloys are actually rather simple. The U.S. used during the Cold War a DU-Ti alloy (no other components) with most of the mass/volume being DU.

 

[militarysta]

I have hope that this table is better then previous one:

 

[militarysta]

Improved again.

 

[farhan_9909]

Improved again.

Is it possible to add the naiza or the arde one to the above comparision list?

 

[The Last Stand]

Improved again.

What's the information on 3BM59/60? Never heard of it

 

[militarysta]

What's the information on 3BM59/60? Never heard of it

More or less for infos about 3BM46 Sniviets (1991 -DU) read previous 5 peges You will find ther infos about 3BM42 Lekalo (1998 -WHA) too.
The newest Russian generation are 3BM59/3BM60 (I hope those designation are correct) Sniviets-1 and Sniviets-2 are WHA and DU. They performation must be very close/equal to DM53 -couse psyhical diamension and others fetures. Both propably will be including countr ERA/NERA working during penetration. Only offcial estimatous give values "40% better then 3BM42 Mango" so equal to DM-53 L-55.

 

[militarysta]

Is it possible to add the naiza or the arde one to the above comparision list?

Sorry but rather not -it's pointles becouse it's not really new round whit some quality level - it will be between CL3579 Mk.2 or in best case for DU version 3BM46 Sniviets. Rather this first one.

 

[militarysta]

Somthing from cold war history, CR1 ammo taken from manuals (posted on Andriiej blog and otvaga)