Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Dazzler]

What? Can we have images of this APS on the MBT thread?

Or are you claiming Varta is your invention?

Varta is exclusively a Ukrainian product which in itself has roots in Shtora but DESTO is working on indigenous APS for all mbts since 2008. The fate of this system is, well, a secret

 

[methos]

reference to Naiza-2 APFSDS round (650 mm @ 2000 m) from official DESTO site...(Defense Science & Technology Organization is an active R&D specialist and a subsidiary of HIT)[/url]

You link to some random forum. It's definetly no official site, because everyone can create an own forum at InvisionFree.com...

To be more exact, your link is from a forum where people simulate/pretend to be a country. The thread is from "21c roleplay". Better check your sources next time, before posting quotes from them and losing your own mind about how good your country is.

 

[Dazzler]

You link to some random forum. It's definetly no official site, because everyone can create an own forum at InvisionFree.com...

To be more exact, your link is from a forum where people simulate/pretend to be a country. The thread is from "21c roleplay". Better check your sources next time, before posting quotes from them and losing your own mind about how good your country is.

there is a reason for this info available on a random forum because Pakistani defence manufacturers keep shutting down their web portals for some unknown reason but the information is correct as per my research. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Dazzler]

background of DESTO

Defence Science & Technology Organization
Rawalpindi, Pakistan

The Defence Science & Technology Organization (DESTO) is the premier defence Research and Development organization of Defence Production Division, Ministry of Defence, Government of Pakistan. DESTO conducts research and development around weapons and weapon systems and renders professional advice on the application of science and technology.

DESTO's research and development environment covers a wide spectrum of fields, under the broad disciplines of aerodynamics, propulsion, defence electronics, computer systems, engineering, propellants, explosives, materials and chemical & biological defence etc. Besides providing scientific and technical support to other research & development as well as production establishments of Ministry of Defence, DESTO's multi-disciplinary infrastructure and technology base is available to public sector industry under commercial arrangements.

While the DESTO Headquarters are located at Chaklala for providing policy advice, liaison and organizational management, DESTO's R&D infrastructure is located at the following different physical locations:


DESTO Laboratories Complex, Chattar
DESTO Laboratories, Karachi
DESTO Laboratories, Chaklala
Institute of Optronics
Ministry of Defence, Chaklala-Rawalpindi, Pakistan

 

[methos]

there is a reason for this info available on a random forum because Pakistani defence manufacturers keep shutting down their web portals for some unknown reason but the information is correct as per my research. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Ok, apparently you don't understand. The forum you linked to is producing fiction about how stuff should be. People there decide to "play" the government or some part of the government of a country and then post stuff as if they would be the government. Other persons play different countries who can interact on a diplomatic way or a competitors.
In this case the player nicknamed "Mars-X" decided to play Pakistan and hence posted some about which defence developments he would like to make. He invented most information about the Al Khalid II (because the stats of the tank were unkown in 2009) which in his opinion should weigh 50 tonnes and would be fitted with a 1,350 hp engine (which doesn't even exist IRL). He invented everything that is written there on the Naiza II APFSDS and everything about the amour protection of his Al Khalid II.
He also invented a further version of the Babur missile, which he labelled Babur II. As you can see another player nicknamed "CSj" found that some information on the Babur II missile was too much science fiction and proposed too scrap it.

So yes, this information is not correct, even though "your research" might say otherwise. You also posted the link to Paul Mulcahy's wargaming page under the assumption that it was a reliable source.

 

[Dazzler]

Ok, apparently you don't understand. The forum you linked to is producing fiction about how stuff should be. People there decide to "play" the government or some part of the government of a country and then post stuff as if they would be the government. Other persons play different countries who can interact on a diplomatic way or a competitors.
In this case the player nicknamed "Mars-X" decided to play Pakistan and hence posted some about which defence developments he would like to make. He invented most information about the Al Khalid II (because the stats of the tank were unkown in 2009) which in his opinion should weigh 50 tonnes and would be fitted with a 1,350 hp engine (which doesn't even exist IRL). He invented everything that is written there on the Naiza II APFSDS and everything about the amour protection of his Al Khalid II.
He also invented a further version of the Babur missile, which he labelled Babur II. As you can see another player nicknamed "CSj" found that some information on the Babur II missile was too much science fiction and proposed too scrap it.

So yes, this information is not correct, even though "your research" might say otherwise. You also posted the link to Paul Mulcahy's wargaming page under the assumption that it was a reliable source.

Paul's twilight 2000 stuff is a game site everyone knows about it, just like Collin's estimates

However, the information on DESTO and AK is remarkably accurate, i dont post things in thin air unless i check them.

Not to refute anything you said about the game context but i will find more info on this.

 

[The Last Stand]

there is a reason for this info available on a random forum because Pakistani defence manufacturers keep shutting down their web portals for some unknown reason but the information is correct as per my research. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Yes? Can you post this research of yours?

Free websites are a let-down by a huge margin, I'm afraid. I can create one by myself and spew nonsense.

 

[militarysta]

Doubled from MBT part, couse it's very interesting:

From their perspective, the OFL 120 F1 (fired from the CN120-26 52-calibers gun) has the penetrating capability of the German DM43 (same dart) but at 3000 meters instead of 2000, thanks to the CN120-26's barrel lenght.
And the OFL 120 F2 would be similar to the M829A1 in term of penetrating capability but listed to 4500 meters instead 2000...



What do you think about this ?

Based on the available data for the 120 mm DM 43A1 APFSDS, the French OFL F1 should penetrate:

574 mm into 270 HB steel at 2,000 m and 0° impact angle.
603 mm into 230 HB steel at 2,000 m and 0° impact angle.
671 mm into 270 HB steel at 2,000 m and 60° impact angle.
705 mm into 230 HB steel at 2,000 m and 60° impact angle.

For comparision with the M829A1 APFSDS: an estimate from a TankNet member (Lieste) put it 684 mm at 60° at 2,000 m of 230 HB steel. M829A1 also has a much greater deceleration than OFL F1/DM 43A1.
Honestly I don't know why some estimates are made with 230 HB steel, when even the cast turret of the was made T-72 of 260-270 HB steel.

I Agree whit Methos, what more - polish sources give DM43 from L-44 circa 560mm RHA at 2000m at 90. plate -what is consist whit Methos, it's important to notice that WITU norms are more severe (ristrict) then standard NATO ones becouse some penetration level in estimatous not as in NATO rule (50% rounds +1) but as in old WarPac - more then 70% must overcome some penetration level. So only for this there is circa 6-8% difrence so if polish norm give 560mm for DM-43A1 circa 560mm than NATO shoud give circa 600mm.


The same for DM-33A1 data is given for French OFL F1, but for DU OFL F2 other then WITU sources give ~640mm RHA at 2000m at 90.plate what shoud be consist whit 8-10% bigger RHA penetration for standard DU rods then standard WHA ones:

8-10% from 640mm is 51-64mm bigger for DU reson, so if we substract this value we shoud have "normal" non DU OFL F1 value:
640-51 to 64mm = ~590-570mm what is pretty the sam as for DM-33A1 - upper value is consist whit "NATO norm" lower value is close to the WarPac and WITU norm.
And both are consist whit Methos estimatous
So confirmed?

He told me that the Emiratis have trialed their Tropicalized Leclerc by shooting 120mm sabot round on it (frontal part). (...)
Another good friend who is an AMX-10RC gunner told me the same story (this rumor circulated for a while in the Armoured Cavalry Branch) but in addition he mentionned that the round used was the OFL 120 F2 (an OFL 120 F1 with a DU penetrator (with slightly slower velocity than the F1)).

It's really posible and give us frontal protection levle for Leclerc export version bigger then 600mm RHA for front. What is really posible and obvious for modern western tank. And in some way explain why IMI (Israel) very fast changed from 105 to 120mm gun (M1 in Egipt) and then change M332 to mucht better M338 APFSDS - first is circa 600-650mm RHA, second slighty better whit abilities to overcome modern ERA and NERA plates.

Unfortunately, no information about the target range...

Ussaly it's no bigger then 2000m and no lower then 1300m.

although the poor monkeys placed inside were stunned and bleeding from their ears...

It's really posible - propably those mankey where "fixed" on crew seats but without helmets. More or less armour must stop ~6-8MJ hitting the armour on short distanse. So noise can be huge.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

40mm FSAPDS >>

Cannot find good Images on similar development from European, Polish, South-Koren ..

 

[Dazzler]

40mm FSAPDS >>

Cannot find good Images on similar development from European, Polish, South-Koren ..

any specs? the penetrator looks rather short compared to these..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the post before replying, Its said 40mm development not 105mm or 120mm mentioned ..

I asked about " European, Polish, South-Koren development .. " if anything in that regard post ..

any specs? the penetrator looks rather short compared to these..

 

[methos]

Cannot find good Images on similar development from European, Polish, South-Koren ..

You won't find Polish 40 mm APFSDS, because Poland (like most countries) doesn't use the 40 mm Bofors gun anymore.

Here is the current Bofors APFSDS penetrator:

The full projectile assembly should look like this:

Here is the South Korean ammunition used with their new K21 IFV:

Here is ammunition for the 40 mm CTA gun which will be used by France and the UK:

 

[Dazzler]

a grainy pic of ARDE 125 mm P-2 APFSDS with 620 mm penetration...

This is in adition to the POFproduced 125 mm APFSDS-T round with 460 mm penetration

third round is NDC/ PAEC produced Naiza DU 125 mm, 560+ mm penetration @ 2000 m

all can be fired by AK, T-80ud, AZ and Type-85 III

 

[Dazzler]

Chally 2 ammo..

 

[militarysta]

Need help.
Photo M829, the core (rod) diameter was wrong in sources? All sources give diameter whit sheet?

M829 APFSDS

 

[militarysta]

BTW:

грифель-1 (125mm)

and found Molot (Ob.477) mockup ammo:

 

[methos]

Need help.
Photo M829, the core (rod) diameter was wrong in sources? All sources give diameter whit sheet?

If I remember correctly the following drawing was made by a soldier:

 

[militarysta]

If I remember correctly the following drawing was made by a soldier:

more then 24/26mm is IMHO impossible, the same about the lenght.

 

[methos]

more then 24/26mm is IMHO impossible, the same about the lenght.

The length is matching with the drawing:
23.2 x 27.05 mm = 627.5 mm

I think the problem in this discussion is the image quaility, because here is a nice document from the Army's Research Laboratory. It mentions that the nose section is "followed by a cylindrical section of diameter 27.05 mm (1 caliber)."

 

[militarysta]

Finnal verion M829 mesurement
rod only have circa 24x486mm, grey tip before rod (under balistic cap) have circa 6-24 x 51mm

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New version of my APFSDS table whit upgrated data

Few changes - most important - in previous verison Soviet APFSDS was overestimated a lot. In fact for 3BM42 penetration guaranteed is circa 430mm RHA at 2000m at 90. plate (HB270-300), and achivable can be up to 460mm. It change a lot, becouse new Åšniwiets-1 shoud be "oficcialy" 40% better then Mango, what give us circa 600-650mm RHA at 2000m. The problem is whit 3BM42M couse on btvt there is "20% better then Mango" those value taken from real give us only max 550mm RHA but this is inconsit whit known lengh, diameter and sabot construction. 3Bm42M was first soviet/rssian long-rod and psyhical dimension are close to M322 Israeli (even slighty better) so achive pentration shoud be at least 600mm RHA like for M322...
Propably those 20% better then 3BM42 Mango shoud be calclate for "old" overestimated data. Teh result is 550-596 what is IMHO preet close to the M322 and consist whit known psyhical dimension of Lekalyo.
The next "looser" is 3BM46 "old" Sviniec whit DU rod (1991). No way that this APFSDS can achive 600mm RHA It's to close to USa M829 so propably achive penetration will be pretty close...

For western ammo - finnaly I have eqplain value for DM-33 from WITU instytiute (470mm RHA at 2000m) and polish Bumar group for polish clone fo the DM-33 - 500-510mm RHA at 2000m. More or less it's the same level, but for 50%+1 round (510mm RHA) and for 75% rounds (470mm RHA). So old story: more difficult to achive WarPac (75%) norm vs. easy NATO norm (50%+1).