Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Dazzler]

@UP ammo on photos is photoshoped so I can't rescale it and estimatous - unfortunatly not this time...

105mm l7 round with longer penetrator, china

 

[militarysta]

Confirm about swiss and israeli works on 140mm APFSDS

 

[313230]

Some sources suggested 140mm has 1.5m length (IIRC two pieces ammo). If it is single piece designed with maximized length then penetrator could reach 1.3m and if fired at +2000m/s IMO could penetrate 1.5m RHA

 

[313230]

Older (but afaik still accurate) data from Jane's abouM829A1:

Weight of penetrator: 4.6 kg
Length of complete round: 984 mm
Length of projectile assembly: 780 mm
Length of penetrator: 684 mm





Sorry, but this is a completely superficial and also faulty approach. The length alone doesn't matter, the exact dimensions and the velocity matter:

- Source

Impact angle and shearing effects are also not taken into account. How did you come up with a 660 mm long penetrator for the DM53? Is this based on some real measurement or an estimate? I am asking because the weight values for the DM53 penetrator/projectile don't match up with your suggested dimensions.

This newest was 1995 apfsds.

Isn't it new tungsten penetrator claims having self sharpening, which may perform better for the same l/d?

 

[313230]

What is the different between the first gen steel sleeve WHA core vs the current trend of jacketed penetrator?

 

[militarysta]

What is the different between the first gen steel sleeve WHA core vs the current trend of jacketed penetrator?

In all aspects?

1. Now we have longer sabots made from light alloys or in US case from composite materials. First gen sabot's where shorter and made from not so light alloys.
2. First generation have not "penetrator" but rather tungsten slug inside penetrator:

As You can see - tungsten slug (red) is small.
Next generation APFSDS have longer but still short WHA penetrator inside alloys body:

good exmaple is 3BM42 (upper photow) when due to technology reson there is no one long but two WHA core inside alloy penetrator body.
Now we have 3 trends in modern WHA penetrators:
1) achive WHA alloys whit the same as DU features to self-sharing during penetrtion:

The AMPTIAC Quarterly
The ultimate discovery of the alloy, the processing methods,
and a verification of the preferred ballistic deformation behav-
ior achieved two things. First, it raised the density to an accept-
able level for kinetic energy penetrators (about 17 g/cm3 ) and
second, it allowed for control of the shear localizations that are
so important to the performance of the KEP. This new, hafni-
um-based BMG-tungsten composite provides new options in
materials selection for KEPs. It performs substantially better
than existing conventional WHAs and on a par with DU alloys.

2) Use jacked panetrator to achive better perforamce against bent forces:

above - jacked penetrators overpass simple NERA armour (3mm steel 3mm rubber 3mm steel) without breaking, while monoblock penetrator generally failss
3) use non monoblock penetrator - so no monoblock or two-tree parts in allosy body but jacked and inside fully segmented penetrator. It makes sucht penetrator able to overcome most ERA or NERA armour, and performs better aganist multilayerd composite armour.

 

[militarysta]

My mesurment South Korean APFSDS-T

APFSDS K-276 120mm it's propably the newest and best used Korean amunition.
Well dimesnions seems to be preatty close to the DM-43...

Here is famouse metal block penetrated by K-276 APFSDS. I had masured it sevral times. It's slopped at 18.degree and thick as circa 180mm so it have LOS thicknes equal to 580mm. But mesuring form edges of the penetratio path give circa 550-560mm LOS.
Of course there is some error in mesurments.

And here both - APFSDS and HEAT round 120mm

HEAT have 600mm RHA penetration and looks like obvious DM-12 clone.

And here is older generation South Koreean 120mm APFSDS-T

JM-33 so clone of the DM-33A1 whit penetration circa 500mm RHA on 2000m.
The same round (DM-33A1) in polish WITU tests had 470mm RHA on 2000m

 

[methos]

JM-33 is a Japanese clone of DM-33, not a South Korean round.

 

[militarysta]

True, my mistake :-/

 

[313230]

In all aspects?

Next generation APFSDS have longer but still short WHA penetrator inside alloys body:

good exmaple is 3BM42 (upper photow) when due to technology reson there is no one long but two WHA core inside alloy penetrator body.

Thanks

I saw 3 cores inside that 3bm42.
And it has both jacketed and multi segmented features, so how does it compares to modern one?

------------------

From logistical point of view, is there anyway to combine HE and shape charge on one projectile? Let say 105mm or 155mm HE-FRAG with shaped charge liner, for dual purpose anti tank and infantry.

Also why HEAT ammo of tank cannon doesn't have aerodynamic shield?

 

[Damian]

From logistical point of view, is there anyway to combine HE and shape charge on one projectile? Let say 105mm or 155mm HE-FRAG with shaped charge liner, for dual purpose anti tank and infantry.

It would be problematic.

Also why HEAT ammo of tank cannon doesn't have aerodynamic shield?

To not disturb the jet.

 

[militarysta]

Thanks

I saw 3 cores inside that 3bm42.
And it has both jacketed and multi segmented features, so how does it compares to modern one?

Well it's not in that way. BTW: take a notice about my really imperfect english so my explanation can be not as good as I wish to do.

First it's not jacked - 3BM42 have alloy sheet (cover?) around two WHA rods inside to put them placed one after one , and special developed tip to better "slip" those two WHA rods from those "cover". More or less those sheet (cover?) is not main part ant it's not most important during penetration -it's only to put two shorter WHA rods in linear way inside whole penetrator after special developed tip. It's all in this case.
In modern jacked penetrator WHA rods "inside" and jacked from alloys is "one part" and both components take a part during penetration. But it have diffrent properties of course.
And segemnted penetrators have layout diffrent then 3Bm42 and from difrent resons - not due to technology limits in production "long rods" but to overcome modern ERA, NERA, SLERA armour.

here a few pdf for you about segmented penetrations, rather ald:
http://ciar.org/shotmagnet/Armor and impactor studies/ARL-TR-2395.pdf

 

[313230]

To not disturb the jet.

I realized why Heat doesn't have fore aerodynamics case, e.g conical shield, not disturbing the jet isn't the reason, but maybe to avoid deflection when striking highly sloped target

 

[Damian]

Yes, ineed, also to avoid deflection. AFAIK in the past, there were problems with tank gun fired HEAT warheads fuzes and the problem with deflection, so ammunition was less effective.

 

[Soviet Sniper 762]

recently the new generations of passive armor reduce the effectiveness of conventional tank ammunition. For example, during the 1982 Lebanon War, anti-tank missiles destroyed more tanks than syrian tanks.
So, i think that in future the next-gen. of tanks' guns will be powered by electromagnetic engine or they will able to fire ATGM, like T-72s' serie.

 

[militarysta]

@UP

Nope. You are wrong take back and read last 40 pages to achive answer why ;-)

 

[313230]

Some members in tank net said that current HE used in tank ammo, especially US ammo, is stable enough against SC jet and other types of shock.

Anyone has info on whether or not current HE used in ammunition is safe?

 

[militarysta]

Serbian 125mm APFSDS:

Milan Blagojevic Namenska

 

[313230]

Serbian 125mm APFSDS:

If I read it correctly, this is the most efficient in term of charge mass / projectile mass

DM63: ~8kg charge launches ~8kg projectile (sabot + penetrator) at 1.6 - 1.7km/s
M829A3: ~8kg of charge launches 10kg at 1.555 km/s

And this Mk1 APFSDS uses only 3.2 kg of charge to launch 7.8kg to 1.66 km/s, very impressive

 

[methos]

And this Mk1 APFSDS uses only 3.2 kg of charge to launch 7.8kg to 1.66 km/s, very impressive

No. It is two part ammunition, the 3.2 kg charge is in the projectile part, the supplementary charge has to be included.