Tank Guns and Ammunition

[militarysta]

Again, that is only shows 14/14 100% , but not the position , speed and distance in that page.

Again, becouse you have some really hard problems whit understand simply tekst:

First one (red) - shooting 2N (N = night) instruction:

1. Strzelanie szkolne nr 2N , strzelaÅ‚o 14 załóg, 12 bardzo dobrych, 2 – dobre. Ocena Å›rednia 4,86 (5)

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 100% tj. 14/14

secodn one (green) shooting B1 - instruction:

2. Strzelanie bojowe nr B1 , strzelaÅ‚o 13 załóg, 10 bardzo dobrych, 3 – dobre.

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 97,6% tj. 41/42

third one (blue) shooting B1N - instruction:

Strzelanie bojowe nr B1N, strzelało 15 załóg czołgów, 11 ocen bdb, 4 oceny dobre, ocena średnia 4,73 (5)
Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 97,8% tj. 45/46

And question for child from shool: how fast will be travel tank distance 200m in 30s?

 

[CCP]

Again, becouse you have some really hard problems whit understand simply tekst:

First one (red) - shooting 2N (N = night) instruction:

secodn one (green) shooting B1 - instruction:

third one (blue) shooting B1N - instruction:

And question for child from shool: how fast will be travel tank distance 200m in 30s?

14/14 - yes

1600-1800m- yes

200m in 30' -yes

But, those data is not related at all.

 

[militarysta]

Of coure they are realted, you just don't understand this, or can't admitt tahat you where postign bullshits from last few pages

 

[militarysta]

"New-old" APFSDS-T from Russia.
This is NOT Swiniec-1 nor 3Bm42M Lekalyo

It was easy to rescale this penetrator - it's totall lenght equal to 640mm, so it's possible to be placed in standard Ob.184 and Ob.188 autoloader casettes:

casette lenght:
6ETs40 (T-64B) - 710-730 mm
T-6ETs43 (T-80U) - 710-730 mm
6ETs43-2C (T-64BM Bulat) - 710-730 mm
AZ serie (T-72, T-72B + clones) max circa 640mm
AZ seria mod. (T-90A, Rogatka, etc) max circa 740mm


So this "new" (in reality looks like erly 1990's) APFSDS-T seems to be prototype something better then Mango and Vant, but possible to fit in standard autoloader casette without modernisation.

 

[militarysta]

Polish 125mm APFSDS. Penetration on 2300m circa 500-520mm RHA; on 1500m circa 550mm RHA.

 

[venatta]

K276 is not a latest 120mm apfsds in South Korea, as it wasintroduced in early 2000s for its new K1A1s. South Korea have already developed a new K279 apfsds, which seems to be simillar to DM53/63 in performance.

 

[venatta]

APFSDS K-276 120mm it's propably the newest and best used Korean amunition.
Well dimesnions seems to be preatty close to the DM-43...[/QUOTE]

K276 is not a latest 120mm apfsds in South Korea, as it wasintroduced in early 2000s for its new K1A1s. South Korea have already developed a new K279 apfsds, which seems to be simillar to DM53/63 in performance.

 

[Andrei_bt]

"New-old" APFSDS-T from Russia.
This is NOT Swiniec-1 nor 3Bm42M Lekalyo

It was easy to rescale this penetrator - it's totall lenght equal to 640mm, so it's possible to be placed in standard Ob.184 and Ob.188 autoloader casettes:

casette lenght:
6ETs40 (T-64B) - 710-730 mm
T-6ETs43 (T-80U) - 710-730 mm
6ETs43-2C (T-64BM Bulat) - 710-730 mm
AZ serie (T-72, T-72B + clones) max circa 640mm
AZ seria mod. (T-90A, Rogatka, etc) max circa 740mm


So this "new" (in reality looks like erly 1990's) APFSDS-T seems to be prototype something better then Mango and Vant, but possible to fit in standard autoloader casette without modernisation.

both were T-64A and T-72 loader designed for 680 mm projectile and 408 mm charge. In terms of modernization 740 mm projectile for T-64A/T-80 dosen't require new redesigned parts and realized by small modifications of existing, T-72 requires almast complete redesign with modifier parts of an autoloader.

 

[militarysta]

CMI Marketing in Poland is stronger and stronger. They (CMI) are trying to forced 105mm APFSDS as main AT weapons in motorizated bde.
For exmaple:

https://fragout.uberflip.com/i/467260/118
(pages 110-120)

The problem is here:

and the answer how it's really look is here:

(from: Twardy pancerz, czyli czy czołg zawsze wybucha po trafieniu. Cz. VII - T-72 i Smok, a sprawa polska - DziennikZbrojny.pl)

Values in 'y' axis on left side - penetration value for 105mm APFSDS given for 60 degree plate
Values in 'y' axis on right side - it's not armour level of those tanks! it's marked penetration level (for 60. degree) needed by 105mm ammo for sure overcome frontal Armour of: T-62, T-72A (in this draw it's NATO codename so T-72 Ural) and T-72M1 (so soviet T-72A and T-72M1 for WarPac)
Valuse on "x" axis - MJ enegry for muzzle for penetrator+sabot together

So what this draw give?
Firs't MJ level for penetrator and sabot together:
105mm APFSDS - (M900 SCDB, CMI max level etc) - 8,3MJ
120mm APFSDS - (M829A2 and M829A3 L-44gun) - 11 -12,1MJ
120mm AFPSDS - (DM53 L-55 gun) - 13,5MJ

So, modern 105mm APFSDS have 30% smaller MJ level then 120mm APFSDS

Second - penetration level - in table it's given for 60. degree. So:

M833/DM63 (in table) 370 mm RHA at 60 degree = 330 mm RHA 90. NATO
M900 (in table) 450 mm RHA at 60 degree = 400 mm RHA 90. NATO
new SCDB propelant penetrator 550mm RHA at 60 degree = 480mm RHA 90. NATO - so 120mm DM-33A1 level (1987)

and new M1060CV (CMI not in table) - 560mm RHA at 60 degree = ~480-490mm RHA 90. NATO

 

[Nautilus]

@militarysta

Hi, i wanna ask a question regarding to Isreal M322 APFSDS performance.
you mentioned earlier (in fact many years ago) that M322 had been exported to various European countries and people knew its performance. you quoted about 650mm RHA.
However, there's a photo available on internet showing the cross-section of M322, which suggested that the entire APFSDS would be only about 560mm long. How could this kind of APFSDS achieve such high performance?

Thank you for your time
Unfortunately I'm still not allowed to post any links, but the photo is in English version of Wikipedia, under the title of "IMI 120 mm gun"

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Improved 120mm MK1 FSAPDS Penetrator.. ?

300mm at 60 degree from 2000ms

@ersakthivel, Long back some got stuck at the idea 300mm RHA from 2000m at 90 degree, Now it is proved such claims are wrong, Also look at the new penetrator ..

 

[M48A5K]

Some of latest Korean ammunitions; 120mm K279 APFSDS, 120mm K280 HEAT-MP, 105mm K274N

K279 is expected to have penetration capability of over 700mm RHAe @2000m, and K274N can penetrate 550~600mm of RHA @2000m. K279 and K280 are currently on production.

 

[jouni]

I just heard that our new Leo 2A6 shoots t-tanks from 6km away. That is awesome. Longer than their tank launched missiles can reach.

 

[M48A5K]

Improved 120mm MK1 FSAPDS Penetrator.. ?

300mm at 60 degree from 2000ms


@ersakthivel, Long back some got stuck at the idea 300mm RHA from 2000m at 90 degree, Now it is proved such claims are wrong, Also look at the new penetrator ..

That claim is still valid. Take a close look at the photo.

120mm FSAPDS MK I : 300mm (150mm RH plate at 60 degree & 2000m)

120mm FSAPDS MK II : possibly +500mm

 

[Hari Sud]

We have not talked about Invar and Konkur T-90 tank missiles which became a major news when Gen. V K Singh raised the issue with the Prime Minister and released his correspondence to the press.

What has happened since then. The needed Invar missiles contract was given to Russia, who refused the technology transfer. Have these bought from Russia - signed, sealed and delivered, or still lost in the shuffle.

What about Konkur missiles?

Are we in a position to copy these. If so, it is good to thumbs down at Russia. Chinese have been copying for years. It is time that India started this practice sooner than later.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Konkur missiles are manufactured in country ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The new 130 mm L51 gun still being in development, The 130 mm L51 gun is not ready for production yet but it is intended to be used on more advance Leopard series tanks in near future, An interesting aspect is that the improved version of the Leopard 2's L55 smooth-bore gun - the L55A1 - is supposed to be ready for series production in 2018 according to Rheinmetall. Together with new ammunition, the L55A1 is claimed to provide about 20% more performance than the current version...

 

[Dazzler]

Did you guys miss this one?

CHINA BUILDS THE WORLD'S FASTEST TANK GUN, THEN TRIES TO HIDE IT
125MM SHELLS GO AT MACH 6

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer June 20, 2015


http://www.popsci.com/china-builds-worlds-fastest-tank-gun-then-tries-hide-it

While new tanks like the Russian Armata and Turkish Altay are taking the spotlight in the world of armored vehicles, China has a new tank gun that might just beat them all. The 127th Ordinance Institute, of the Central Northern University, handed over a new 125mm cannon to PLA officers at a June 10, 2015 ceremony. The Institute claims that the new multipurpose cannon will have the highest range, velocity and penetration power of any 120mm/125mm cannon in the world. Where the story gets more interesting is that by June 14, all references to the new 125mm cannon had been scrubbed from the University's website, which suggests an official desire for secrecy during tests.

The multipurpose cannon achieves its high performance through a high length to caliber ratio of at least 60:1 (the longest tank gun in service is the German 120mm cannon, which has a ratio of 55:1), and a larger cartridge, that stores more propellant explosives. While the multipurpose cannon is currently mounted on a towed carriage, several characteristics suggest that it is intended in use for enclosed spaces (IE tank turrets).

This multipurpose cannon reportedly has a muzzle velocity of 2,000m per second for armored piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) rounds, whose discarding sabot concentrates the kinetic energy from propellant into frontal area of the penetrator rod, which is the size of a half dollar coin. For comparison, current Chinese 125mm APFSDS have a 1700m/s muzzle velocity, the German L55 has a muzzle velocity of 1,750m/s, and the US's M829A3 APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of only 1,555m (but uses a larger penetrator with increased mass to increase imparted kinetic energy).

Just as importantly, the new tank cannon uses one piece ammunition, in contrast to the 125mm two piece ammunition used by current Chinese tanks such as the ZTZ-99 and ZTZ-96. The autoloader on those tanks are limited to two piece 125mm ammunition due to size restrictions, which in turn results in a smaller APFSDS rod with less kinetic energy. The new one piece 125mm ammunition will allow for larger APFSDS rods, while keeping the caliber to 125mm to save weight, as opposed to scaling up to a larger caliber, such as 140mm.

The multipurpose cannon's high velocity gives it enough energy and range to theoretically take on anti-aircraft roles (similar to 127mm and 130mm dual purpose naval cannons), though size constraints in a tank turret would likely limit its firing rate and elevation when targeting high flying aircraft. More plausibly, the multipurpose cannon could provide indirect fire support with cannon launched missiles and shells for Chinese forces, such as distant, networked infantry units calling in strikes on enemy positions (though again turret size and recoil mechanisms means that the claimed maximum 40km range is likely theoretical).

 

[pmaitra]

Seems like effect are same when triggered ..

===========

Delayed Blast mode ..

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

So, this does not use a Squash Head charge, but aerosol, which causes the same effect as HESH, i.e., sends shockwaves through the armour and causes spalling on the other side.

Spoiler: HESH Schematic

Source: External Forum

Good. I learnt something today.

From my understanding, thermobraic weapons would use (1) some type of aerosol or fuel-air explosive, and (2) would not detonate on impact, but there would be a short gap between aerosol formation and detonation.

I found the research paper from DRDO that discusses this.

Another research paper discusses the thermobaric weapon:

Thermobaric weapons are classified as a subcomponent of a larger family of weapon systems which are commonly known as volumetric weapons. The volumetric weapons include thermobaric and fuel-air explosives (FAE, aerosol bombs in German). The term “thermobaric” is a compound word derived from the Greek words “therme” and “baros” meaning “heat” and “pressure” (implying the effects of temperature and pressure on the target), respectively. The characteristics of this category of weapons are mainly the creation of a large fireball and good blast performance [1]. Both thermobaric and FAE devices operate relying on some similar technical principles. In general, a thermobaric explosive (TBX) consists of a certain central charge (called the core), which is usually a high explosive, and an external secondary charge (fuel-rich formulation). Therefore, the detonation of TBX consists of a dual action: (1) Firstly anaerobic action (without air oxygen) inside the conventional high explosive core occurs; (2) Then aerobic delayed burning action of the fuel mixture of the outer charge happens which depends mainly on the consumption of the surrounding air [2].

When a shell or projectile containing a fuel in the form of gas, liquid (aerosol) or dust explodes, the fuel or dust-like material is dispersed into the air which forms a cloud. Its occurrence does not depend on an oxidizer being present in the molecule. Then, this cloud is detonated to engender a shock wave, characterized with extended duration that produces overpressure expanding in all directions.

From the GIF image you posted, I did not see an aerosol cloud, but this could be an artefact of that being a GIF. Perhaps we will chance upon a video where we can see it.

Here is a video of a thermobaric bomb. You can see the aerosol cloud being created, followed by a short delay, followed by the final explosion:

The same thing can be seen here:

Thermos- heat + baros- pressure-> thermobaric

View attachment 16761

View attachment 16762

Notice cloud formation before burst that is what primarily sucks up the surrounding oxygen

 

[Akarnanbat]

Chinese 105 mm BTA2 (export version)

Self-sharpening WHA (non-DU)

projectile 704.5 mm penetrator > 550 mm (For comparison: M900A1 projectile 711 mm, penetrator 545 mm)

muzzle velocity 1540 m/s (when fired by standard L7)

penetration: 220 mm/66.42 Deg @ 2 km (For comparison: M1060CV 280 mm/60 Deg @ 2 km. Realized by a much higher muzzle velocity, 1620 m/s)

The version used by PLA is with a muzzle velocity > 1600 m/s (fired by type 94, an improved version of type 83 which in turn is a copy of L7), and a penetration > 300 mm / 60 Deg.