Pakistan's naval buildup is quite concerning.

Willy3

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A noob question , Why we cant or dont run our dockyards round the clock 24 hours without a break 7 days a week in maybe 8 hours shift and expedite pumping out those warships ???
Our shipyard can't manufacture or procure crucial parts by themselves.

It's more than 5/6 years since Visakhapattanam launched , yet it can't get fitted with radar, Gun and other crucial stuff like shaft etc, some are supposed to come from UK, Ukraine, Russia etc, but don't know when

A ship supposed to join service within 2/3 years of launch right?

We could have all P15B commissioned not for our slowass procurement policy
 

Rajaraja Chola

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What is the total capital expenditure for this projects, that is quite a serious upgrade to their naval fleet in next 5 years.
I don't think 5 years. The 8 submarine deal for instance was concluded quite sometime back and subs were started to arrive from 2020/21. Now it's being pushed even back, a reason they are leasing a sub. Though that's a smart thing to do.
Damen class is an OPV similar to coast guard.
Milgem and type 54 are threats while at the same time many of their old platforms are going to be retired as well. But yes IN has a challenge on their hands. We need to plug our defences fast enough.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Recently I read an article in Paki strategic circle as to how Indian Navy cannot be the only power in Arabian Sea due to various issues it faces (Accidents, Project Delays etc) and how it needs to work with Pakistan Navy to to safe guard Arabian Sea.
It also spoke as to how Pakistan Navy cannot let Indian Navy to dominate Arabian Sea and it need to make sure there is a 'Balance of Power' to keep 'Indian Hegemonic design' in check.

As an Indian I found that article full of crap but then that's how Pakis think.
The thing is only the Western command should be able to take on Pakistan with some assistance from Southern command. That's it. Eastern command and Southern command should be able to patrol IOR and deter any incoming hostile navies and also mount shore based invasion capability.

WC should have atleast 4 destroyers, 10 frigates and more subs to deal with them.
 

Kumata

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I know that I will get some flak for saying this but this buildup of sorts of Pakistan Navy is quite concerning.

This is what Pak Navy chief said today->>

> 4 x Type-054AP frigates under construction (delivery 2021-23)
> 4 x MILGEM ships under construction (del 2023-25)
> 1 x Jinnah-class Frigate construction (del 2026-27)
> Two Damen made corvettes to join soon.
> Deal for 6 heavier tonnage corvettes to be concluded soon.
> 8 x Hangor-class subs under construction (del 2022-28)
> 1 x Yuan-class sub being acquired from China for training purposes.
> 1 more Modernised ATR-72 ASW aircraft to join soon (total 3 such planes)
> 10 jet-powered MP aircraft for ASW role to be acquired as a replacement of P-3C Orions. Deal for 1 is concluded.
> P-282+ ballistic missiles for ship and land-attack from ship launch pads under development
> MALE UAV contract concluded.


I am thus 200% sure that this buildup is being funded/bankrolled by China to keep India's focus on Pakistan as Pakistan with a defence capital budget of less than $2.5 billion cannot afford such naval buildup.
With a budget of 140 Billion Pakistani Re .. How...

This year Pakistan navy gets Rs.140 billion, PAF Rs.274 billion, army Rs.613 billion and Rs.262 billion will be given to inter-services establishment.

- See more at: http://southasiajournal.net/pakistans-military-spending-and-defence-budget-2020-21/
Sheer propaganda at work ..People saying that CCP will bankroll this need to get a reality check.. CCP will have their own house in dolls down few years due to new found mis-trust in trade...Ultimately, they will realize what US realized post 9 /11 .. U both might be snakes but snakes do kill each other when it's about survival..
 

hit&run

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Overcrowding of surface assets has two possible utilities. One is holding and blockade another is a distraction, masking and scattering. Otherwise one Kolkata class with it's minimum IBG package suffices Pakistan Navy. Littoral challenges can be easily defended by land-based grid and attack capabilities.

India’s ASW lead by P8i is already an overkill and will ensure stray Pakistani bravado switched off indefinitely.
 

Shiv sagar

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The biggest weapon our navy have is the intel sharing and inter operability between quad members. Realtime intel is the key of any any battle on open sea, without which you are just sitting ducks. Chinese are afraid of this, they know they are being hunted by 4 navies, they have no place to hide, when you don't have 5he element of surprise on your side you have lost half the battle then and there. Pakistani navy has a serious drawback aginst us, the lack of realtime intelligence, mind you it has a cost which pakistan can never be able to afford. Just think of operating 12 p8i + some more from usa and the amount stress it can put on Pakistani submarines in a war scenario. Navel wars have changed from 1971, pakis will not be able to lurk freely in Indian Ocean without getting detected.
 

aditya g

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New platforms being acquired is only part of the story.

They have added new bases, shore based missile batteries, air defence, new marines battalions, information centre like what IN has, nuclear command etc.

The PMSA has also grown in size.

Moreover this is the first time PN is getting brand new ships instead of the usual second hand ones.

The part that I respect the most is their frugal approach. For example, ATRs were acquired first and then upgraded with weapons separately. The new Yarmook class corvette is built to commercial standard which is cheaper than IN's building standard. And again the ship is devoid of many systems but will be upgraded later.

The old PN was truly a joke in comparison.

IN is still a way more capable force and is also not sitting idle. However this does not mean enemy's build up is not taken seriously - especially since the build up lasts 30 years at least.

The most serious threat are the 8 submarines. We do not have enough P-8Is to hunt for these many. The main counter is going to be the ASW-SWC. I am truly excited about this class of ship. A counter we are sorely missing is MCM which is desperately needed to undo nuisance caused by subs.


I know that I will get some flak for saying this but this buildup of sorts of Pakistan Navy is quite concerning.

This is what Pak Navy chief said today->>

> 4 x Type-054AP frigates under construction (delivery 2021-23)
> 4 x MILGEM ships under construction (del 2023-25)
> 1 x Jinnah-class Frigate construction (del 2026-27)
> Two Damen made corvettes to join soon.
> Deal for 6 heavier tonnage corvettes to be concluded soon.
> 8 x Hangor-class subs under construction (del 2022-28)
> 1 x Yuan-class sub being acquired from China for training purposes.
> 1 more Modernised ATR-72 ASW aircraft to join soon (total 3 such planes)
> 10 jet-powered MP aircraft for ASW role to be acquired as a replacement of P-3C Orions. Deal for 1 is concluded.
> P-282+ ballistic missiles for ship and land-attack from ship launch pads under development
> MALE UAV contract concluded.


I am thus 200% sure that this buildup is being funded/bankrolled by China to keep India's focus on Pakistan as Pakistan with a defence capital budget of less than $2.5 billion cannot afford such naval buildup.
 

avknight1408

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Union budget allocation for defence pensions is Rs. 1.33 lakh crore (almost $15 billion). This is bigger than Pakistan's entire defence budget. In 2015 the defence pensions were 54k crore. But after OROP it has almost trebled in 5 years. It is unsustainable and many former army officers have agreed with this too. (One such article ). Imagine how much it will increase as years go by. We are sitting on a time bomb.

If taxpayer money is put to good use then we will have modern military. Historically Indian Navy has received less funding among the three and this has forced it to embrace indigenous products. Same way budget constraints have forced entire paki military to get more bang for buck. You can check pakistan ordnance factory website. They have only one plant but make a lot of products (even MP5 on license). Few years ago Indian Army vice chief had said this publically (Link).

DRDO, OFB, PSU & now OROP are hurdles for defence modernization.
 

SKC

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Union budget allocation for defence pensions is Rs. 1.33 lakh crore (almost $15 billion). This is bigger than Pakistan's entire defence budget. In 2015 the defence pensions were 54k crore. But after OROP it has almost trebled in 5 years. It is unsustainable and many former army officers have agreed with this too. (One such article ). Imagine how much it will increase as years go by. We are sitting on a time bomb.

If taxpayer money is put to good use then we will have modern military. Historically Indian Navy has received less funding among the three and this has forced it to embrace indigenous products. Same way budget constraints have forced entire paki military to get more bang for buck. You can check pakistan ordnance factory website. They have only one plant but make a lot of products (even MP5 on license). Few years ago Indian Army vice chief had said this publically (Link).

DRDO, OFB, PSU & now OROP are hurdles for defence modernization.
The Pensions and Salary needs to be offset separately from defence budget.
Something like what Pak army does needs to be done here, Run some core industries.
Pak Army is able to generate as high as $18 billion from the industries they run.
 

Poseidon

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To be honest except the submarines part, it is a pretty modest buildup and Indian navy envisioned force size is more than enough to counter it, but main issue is delays in IN's programs.
 

Villager

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Other than China Turkey and Malaysia are also helping PAK Navy.
As always Pak Navy despite its low budget manages to be Kawab me haddi.
Kudos to them, they have learned the art of doing much with little.
Seems like they are stepping up. If they decide to do something, it won't be a solo adventure by Pakistanis this time as they did previously. They don't even have to use their brains when Chinkies and Turk doing it for them. We could face severe damage if we don't step up our game drastically. Our defensive policies have to scrapped. We gotta step up and put our boots on their soil. We must expand our boundaries. Before expanding we must take our own territories back and I don't mean POK, I mean our civilisational boundaries upto atleast Hindu Kush in West, bordering Burma in the east and make claims on Tibetan and Xinjiang territories and keep Chinese engaged there. That's a minimum we need.
 

Villager

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Ultimately India can’t stop PN from procuring what they want.

there is no choice for IN but to build longer stand off attack capability, both shore based and ship based, invest more on surveillance as well.
Capture Punjab. We are moving in direction of armed conflict and they will strike because that's their primary motivation. We will do it first and deal with new enemies we find rather than figuring out ways of defending our already heavily shrunken territory.

Time is running out very fast we need to capture POK and eventually destroy all their build up in this process.
I would say we can afford to lose POK for sometime before recapturing but we can't afford to have adventurer military led Pakistan alongside. I would say again eliminating Punjab from Pakistan is the more effective solution. We won't have any bigger hostile force around then. Even if there is any hostile force we find, they will take decades to match us. We can do alot in the meantime.
 

Akula

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Pakistan Navy right now has 3 Tariq class destroyers plus 1 Alamgir class frigate. 3 more Alamgir class frigate were to come. Tariq class is 25-27 year old whereas Alamgir is 40 years(30 years of US Navy service).
They have ordered 4 Type 054AP frigate and 4 Ada class corvette, which will replace old ships that I have mentioned and fill the gap.

Real concern will be the submarine fleet. Right now they have 2 Agosto 70 class(40 years old) and 3 Agosta 90B( commissioned between 1999-2006). 8 Hangor class has been ordered from China. Hangor class will eventually replace old Agosta 70 class. Their submarine fleet number will rise from 5 to 11 by 2028.
 

Villager

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Wreck their economy. Have a hostile Iran and Afghanistan for them.
They don't share our vision our values. They don't cherish freedom or diversity. They are actually more opposed to it than Pakistan. How can we create a hostile Afghanistan for them?

How many Hindus and Sikhs remain in Afghanistan today. Wikipedia says just about 50. There used to be nearly 300,000 in late 90's reduced from 700,000 in 70s. Our soft power is such that we can neither ask from Afghans for non-muslim people's basic human rights nor can we ask others because we love to admire our independent policies that gives us only crap. While we love to celebrate their presence in India as if they are our brothers and sisters. But they (Hindus-Sikhs) have only one option to survive facing threat and that's leaving their motherland.

We can only try to exploit already existing issues between them. Afghanistan isn't a democracy. They don't give shit about individual freedom or minority. Even Pakistan is a heaven compared to Afghanistan for minority communities. So our friendship and goodwill is only as long as we are helping build Afghan, as soon as they find other alternatives, it won't be a hard choice for them. We will continue to have influence but we won't shape their policies regarding us.
 

Illusive

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They don't share our vision our values. They don't cherish freedom or diversity. They are actually more opposed to it than Pakistan. How can we create a hostile Afghanistan for them?

How many Hindus and Sikhs remain in Afghanistan today. Wikipedia says just about 50. There used to be nearly 300,000 in late 90's reduced from 700,000 in 70s. Our soft power is such that we can neither ask from Afghans for non-muslim people's basic human rights nor can we ask others because we love to admire our independent policies that gives us only crap. While we love to celebrate their presence in India as if they are our brothers and sisters. But they (Hindus-Sikhs) have only one option to survive facing threat and that's leaving their motherland.

We can only try to exploit already existing issues between them. Afghanistan isn't a democracy. They don't give shit about individual freedom or minority. Even Pakistan is a heaven compared to Afghanistan for minority communities. So our friendship and goodwill is only as long as we are helping build Afghan, as soon as they find other alternatives, it won't be a hard choice for them. We will continue to have influence but we won't shape their policies regarding us.
Who cares about freedom and diversity. I am talking about the Durand line, the atrocities on pashtun's. Help them take back what belongs to Afghans from "Daal Khor" pakis. With Iran its definetly the Shia Sunni thing, how pakis undermine Iran in the region by supporting Turkey, keeping pakis in check is in their own interest, esepecially when there are massive anti shia rallies happening in pakistan.

Bhai we dont need to be friends, there in no friendship happening with anyone.
 

Vishalreddy3

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This article gives a detailed insight about the future acquisition of paki navy.
Halfway through the article, I was anxious and sad because, India couldn't even procure 4 amphibious LPD ships which has been on priority for 8 years. Project P75i which the navy issued a tender in 1999 after Kargil war, is yet to be brought back to Life. Not to mention en number of Offshore Patrol ships which is yet to be inducted. The sheer negligence and incompetence is gonna cost us one day. Chinese are like machines who work around the clock and build a formidable Naval force which rivals US, yet we couldn't induct INS Vikrant which was laid down in 2009.


 
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ezsasa

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Out of everything it's the development of the hypersonic anti ship ballistic missile and supersonic cruise missile that will be the biggest challenge apart from the subs


This will give them subsonic, supersonic, ballistic and hypersonic capabilities

Looking at different forums the news is the 6 larger ships could be destroyers and thus be a platform to fire the ASBM
They won't have a base to go back to if they do that, and all the boats in all their bases will be totalled in one go, and our missile launches need not even be from the sea.
 

ezsasa

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A type of M.A.D comes into play it binds our hands as to what action we can take

If firing Brahmos gets them firing their missiles then the risk to our assets, cities etc is too great and means our ability to fire or take action becomes limited
History indicates that India's response has always been retaliatory.
 

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