Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

i don't trust globlesecurity for running project here what i have some...

The aim is to fly the first twin-engine AMCA prototype by 2023-2024, which will be around the time deliveries of Tejas Mark-II fighters will be underway. IAF is slated to get its first Tejas Mark-I in March this year, over 30 years after the LCA project was first approved in August 1983. But the Tejas Mark-II jets, with more powerful engines, will start to come only by 2021-2022, as was first reported by TOI.

ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, starting 2020. "Extensive private participation is envisaged throughout the project, right from DDP to production," says Subramaniam. He says that a large number of DRDO and CSIR labs, IITs, IISc and private industries are already involved in the AMCA project

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/onein...hter-dream-moves-towards-reality-1653749.html

If that's the case then they have lowered their standards

 

[AnantS]

If that's the case then they have lowered their standards

Nope, thats how they have been operating since decades. This tells that their Armed Forces are encourage or forced to participate fully in development of indigenous products. Unlike our country, where Armed Forces have generally been behaving as they were in a Takeaway restaurant. Though off late things have started to change.

 

[Vijyes]

for FGFA WORK put some link. the contract is just completed, that initial work not detail r&d.
and for amca yes the work started around 2013 but look there are still no funding and major rood block is engin.
we are not going to do same mistake twice(lca). so when u see that that problem solved add 5-7 year to get production (by going same methods 2 TD-5 PV-8LSP-SP'S)


Yea i know but u see TOT is not that useful if you not speed on your internal research to learn from then.till now we are just copying the know-how. we need to get out to use that tot to know the why part. and that take time.

If Modi govt wins 2019, then we will definitely have AMCA on time. We have seen how Rustom was developed in just 1 year. Even Parrikar expressed thanks to the scientists and DRDO for getting it done so quickly. If Safran indeed gives out technology for kaveri, then consider AMCA as done. Even Rafale will get additional orders IMHO. I think Safran is fast tracking the engine to be completed before 2018 so as to ensure that they get the additional order before 2019 election. Otherwise in case UPA comes back, Dassault and Safran will have a really bad time

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Nope, thats how they have been operating since decades. This tells that their Armed Forces are encourage or forced to participate fully in development of indigenous products. Unlike our country, where Armed Forces have generally been behaving as they were in a Takeaway restaurant. Though off late things have started to change.

I was replying to @kunal1123 and we have a real government now not some fake and corrupt government

 

[lcafanboy]

You kidding lol if 2035 is the date then Drdo And Hal Might Also work on an 6th Gen Fighter and Make MCA Tejas( Tejas MK2 Twin Engine)

Worse scenario is 2030 if program doesn't shelve.

It is just now the funds have been allotted and design frozen. There is no timelines for even TDs but expect them to somehow role out by 2019 end and if lucky mat be put to Air by mid or 3rd quarter of 2020. Then Prototypes which may somehow come by 2022 for first PV1, Then starts the testing of the Air frame for FCS which usually takes 5-7 years for normal fly-by-wire system which is proven and if opted for fly-by-optic then expect 10 yrs. Next, weapon trials and validation 3-5 years. Now calculate the time frame which starts next year when assembly of First TD 1 will start IE 2018, TD 2 by 2021-22. 10-12 years which comes to 2030-32 very optimistically, expect 2026-28 for start of LSPs, From LSPs to SP it takes 3-5 yrs again optimistically.

Here I am taking into consideration that Rafale and PAKFA (FGFA) deals bring in lots of proven systems like AESA or ROFAR radar, Spectra system for EW and advance composites to be used immediately. That's the reason I am saying optimistically if we have to develop these too then forget AMCA all together as I doubt if it will even come after 2040. See LCA Tejas timelines and you know what I am saying.

 

[lcafanboy]

2028 is the Induction Date in the worst case scenario the date for Amca Should be 2025 or The best case Scenario 2023

Is it 2-Minutes MAGGIE instant NOODLE which would be ready within 2 years of first TD flying. Look at timelines for PAKFA (First flight 2010 may enter service by 2024 with item 30 engine with full stealth features and not half fried version flying now), F-35 (first flight 2006, LSPs being manufactured till now, not up to till now may stabilize after 2019-20), Typhoon, Rafale, etc. All these countries are much more advance than INDIA in aeronautics and Fighter making and even then it took them 15-20 years from design to production.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Is it 2-Minutes MAGGIE instant NOODLE which would be ready within 2 years of first TD flying. Look at timelines for PAKFA (First flight 2010 may enter service by 2024 with item 30 engine with full stealth features and not half fried version flying now), F-35 (first flight 2006, LSPs being manufactured till now, not up to till now may stabilize after 2019-20), Typhoon, Rafale, etc. All these countries are much more advance than INDIA in aeronautics and Fighter making and even then it took them 15-20 years from design to production.

For pak fa look at above posts
And for AMCA it's prototype would be ready in 2019 And for that also read the above post and please mention the source

 

[lcafanboy]

You kidding lol if 2035 is the date then Drdo And Hal Might Also work on an 6th Gen Fighter and Make MCA Tejas( Tejas MK2 Twin Engine)

No other country is even thinking of 6th gen fighter apart from US till now. All 5th gen fighter of other countries like PAKFA, J-20, J-31, Japanese, Korean, Turkey, other than US will Fructify by 2025-2035 timelines. India's AMCA too falls in same timeline not bad at all.

 

[lcafanboy]

Real Work On FGFA Started From 2011 ish and would be completed and Inducted In late 2018-or 2019 It Took Only 8 Years (At Max ) Real Work on AMCA Started In 2013 (AFAIK) So bro It is a possibility AMCA could also be completed in 8-10 Years

Till now PAKFA is flying with S117 engine of SU35 not its intended engine item 30 which is still being tested on ground may be finished by 2018 end and flight testing and first installation by 2022-23. So it is still half baked.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

No other country is even thinking of 6th gen fighter apart from US till now. All 5th gen fighter of other countries like PAKFA, J-20, J-31, Japanese, Korean, Turkey, other than US will Fructify by 2025-2035 timelines. India's AMCA too falls in same timeline not bad at all.

Sukhoi have proposed a 6th gen design if you don't know that

 

[kunal1123]

If Modi govt wins 2019, then we will definitely have AMCA on time. We have seen how Rustom was developed in just 1 year. Even Parrikar expressed thanks to the scientists and DRDO for getting it done so quickly. If Safran indeed gives out technology for kaveri, then consider AMCA as done. Even Rafale will get additional orders IMHO. I think Safran is fast tracking the engine to be completed before 2018 so as to ensure that they get the additional order before 2019 election. Otherwise in case UPA comes back, Dassault and Safran will have a really bad time

yes quite true......

I was replying to @kunal1123 and we have a real government now not some fake and corrupt government

hen starts the testing of the Air frame for FCS which usually takes 5-7 years for normal fly-by-wire system which is proven and if opted for fly-by-optic then expect 10 yrs

i dont think that there are considerable delay for fly by light as we are seeing taht work has been alwarady started.
and lca got stuck due to change in requirement and mainly engin otherwise it production may be started around 2012-13. but that not the case for AMCA as u see dmo and pmo is working on multiipule front to get that .
i am quite sure if we able to get kaveri (65+/100+) the AMCA WILL SEE FULL THRUST.

It is just now the funds have been allotted and design frozen. There is no timelines for even TDs but expect them to somehow role out by 2019 end and if lucky mat be put to Air by mid or 3rd quarter of 2020. Then Prototypes which may somehow come by 2022 for first PV1, Then starts the testing of the Air frame for FCS which usually takes 5-7 years for normal fly-by-wire system which is proven and if opted for fly-by-optic then expect 10 yrs. Next, weapon trials and validation 3-5 years. Now calculate the time frame which starts next year when assembly of First TD 1 will start IE 2018, TD 2 by 2021-22. 10-12 years which comes to 2030-32 very optimistically, expect 2026-28 for start of LSPs, From LSPs to SP it takes 3-5 yrs again optimistically.

Here I am taking into consideration that Rafale and PAKFA (FGFA) deals bring in lots of proven systems like AESA or ROFAR radar, Spectra system for EW and advance composites to be used immediately. That's the reason I am saying optimistically if we have to develop these too then forget AMCA all together as I doubt if it will even come after 2040. See LCA Tejas timelines and you know what I am saying.

ACTUALLY THERE IS TIMELINE FOR AMCA I HAVE READ NOT ON YEAR WISE BUT TIME THAT IT WILL TAKE AFTER FUNDING THAT I HAVE ALREADY STATED WITH MY OWN DELAY OF 1-2 YEAR. SO .

WELL U SEE MODI WILL LIKE TO ADD AMCA IN IS 2019 CAMPING I THINK.. IF WE GET KAVERI ORUS-JV FOR ENGINE READY TO SEE AMCA-TD BEFORE 2019 GENERAL ELECTION (MY OWN THOUGHT)

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Till now PAKFA is flying with S117 engine of SU35 not its intended engine item 30 which is still being tested on ground may be finished by 2018 end and flight testing and first installation by 2022-23. So it is still half baked.

See the above source for pak fa of the diplomat

 

[kunal1123]

See the above source for pak fa of the diplomat

" FROM THE DIPLOMATE"

“Under the program, we will finish testing next year and will begin to receive the T-50 jets in 2017,” Bondarev told Sputnik News. Back in June, during the Paris Air Show, the head of United Russia’s Aircraft Corporation, had still talked about a potential 2016 or early 2017 induction date

it's already feb 2017 . still no news

 

[lcafanboy]

Sukhoi have proposed a 6th gen design if you don't know that

Even Boeing has proposed and in fact they are flying prototypes which will come after 2035. But US has, is and always will be 20 years ahead of pack. Russia does not even have funds for PAKA let alone 6th gen fighters. Proposing is one thing working on it is another, AMCA was proposed in 2008, it is 10 years since work not started. And Indian economy is bigger than Russian now and will remain and in fact grow faster tan Russian. Now calculate these variables.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

" FROM THE DIPLOMATE"

“Under the program, we will finish testing next year and will begin to receive the T-50 jets in 2017,” Bondarev told Sputnik News. Back in June, during the Paris Air Show, the head of United Russia’s Aircraft Corporation, had still talked about a potential 2016 or early 2017 induction date

it's already feb 2017 . still no news

It is still not that old news maybe till march or April who knows

 

[lcafanboy]

“Under the program, we will finish testing next year and will begin to receive the T-50 jets in 2017,”

That is half baked with S117 engines and not Item 30. Why India is not buying these? They know it is still not finished and they are now initiating LSPs to stabilize production and are inducting even without IOC let alone FOC.

 

[Scrutator]

i know that GE and Pratt & Whitney are in development to increase the life to 6000+. they might be near. but still they are not going to give it to india to further use and export so continuing kaveri and other engine is only option .

here is another source and this is well known writer

https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/04/23/how-choices-get-made-develop-indigenous-vs-lisc-produce/

"Another such but slightly different, decision may soon be on MOD’s table. It involves the jet power plant for Tejas. The original General Electric F-404 capable of 80-85 KiloNewtons of thrust equipping Tejas is to be replaced by the GE 414-INS6 engine capable of 98KN or 22,000 lbs of thrust, turbofan, with afterburner. This was an indent for the navalised version. IAF, always the laggard fetched up later to demand the same engine. In 2010, India contracted to buy 99 of the 414s for the Tejas Mk-2 program, with the delivery begun in 2013. With the total requirement of 500-600 engines for the Tejas (with each 414 engine estimated to pull 3,000 hours of flying, and 3.5 engines for the lifetime of each aircraft), HAL is seeking to license produce them in Banglaore, in its well-honed SKD-CKD assembly mode that guarantees HAL continues to learn nothing about ingesting and innovating technology, and even less about designing and making aircraft engines."

and why i am so much sure about it because i have read the latest development in Snecma M88 to increase it life to 4000 hr. and i know that GE and Pratt & Whitney are in development to increase the life to 6000+. they might be near. but still they are not going to give it to india to further use and export so continuing kaveri and other engine is only option .



2032 is time as same as 2022 for lca. the problem we overcome in lca will provide a lot help for amca just let proper funding to be given for prototype. current news show that drdo(ada) and hal has learn a lot from lca project...

If GE does have an extended life engine, why wouldn't they sell it to India??? It sounds a little ridiculous that they would have invested all the money to upgrade the components but will limit their sales only to F18's. The extended life just gets 'priced' in - it's not really a 'nuclear' technology that they need to prevent falling in wrong hands!!!

Bharat Karnad is also blowing a lot of hot air there!!
su-30MKI's airframes have a lifetime of 6,000 hrs
F16's airframes have a lifetime of 8,000 hrs
Rafale's airframes have a lifetime of 8,000 hrs
F18's airframes have a lifetime of 6,000 hrs (recently extended a little)
According to BK, Tejas airframe has a lifetime of 3.5*3000 =10,500 hours!!!! REALLY???

(I've heard of Tejas airframe lifetime to be 6000 hours, which sounds more plausible! As the IAF would have required the designers to meet the lifetimes of other successful aircraft. It would be ridiculous to think that IAF would have asked ADA to exceed the global standards by more than 50% in their very first attempt at a fighter jet).

Also, according to Bharat Karnad (in the same article that you referenced) Tejas Mk2 will be fitted with 414-EPE engine delivering 120KN??
REALLY??
He claims that deliveries of those engines had already begun in 2013 (EPE engine already existed then?? it doesn't exist even now!!!!)

Sorry to say, but you're quoting fake news!!!

 

[kunal1123]

If GE does have an extended life engine, why wouldn't they sell it to India??? It sounds a little ridiculous that they would have invested all the money to upgrade the components but will limit their sales only to F18's. The extended life just gets 'priced' in - it's not really a 'nuclear' technology that they need to prevent falling in wrong hands!!!

Bharat Karnad is also blowing a lot of hot air there!!
su-30MKI's airframes have a lifetime of 6,000 hrs
F16's airframes have a lifetime of 8,000 hrs
Rafale's airframes have a lifetime of 8,000 hrs
F18's airframes have a lifetime of 6,000 hrs (recently extended a little)
According to BK, Tejas airframe has a lifetime of 3.5*3000 =10,500 hours!!!! REALLY???

(I've heard of Tejas airframe lifetime to be 6000 hours, which sounds more plausible! As the IAF would have required the designers to meet the lifetimes of other successful aircraft. It would be ridiculous to think that IAF would have asked ADA to exceed the global standards by more than 50% in their very first attempt at a fighter jet).

Also, according to Bharat Karnad (in the same article that you referenced) Tejas Mk2 will be fitted with 414-EPE engine delivering 120KN??
REALLY??
He claims that deliveries of those engines had already begun in 2013 (EPE engine already existed then?? it doesn't exist even now!!!!)

Sorry to say, but you're quoting fake news!!!

"F-16’s block 40,42 life expectancy tops out at 8,000 flight hours. A SLEP upgrade could extend those life spans an additional 2,000 to 4,000 flight hours." total 12000 hr
rafal life span is close to 10000 hr(50 year= 200h/year).
and lca is light it expected to be flown more and still have life of 40+ year. so yes.

and yes there is news that lca mk2 go with epe and it is different from EDE (EDE WILL INCREASE THRUST AND LIFE WHILE EPE ONLY INCREASE THRUST AND YES GE WORKING EPE WAY BEFORE 2013 )

 

[Alok Arya]

"F-16’s block 40,42 life expectancy tops out at 8,000 flight hours. A SLEP upgrade could extend those life spans an additional 2,000 to 4,000 flight hours." total 12000 hr
rafal life span is close to 10000 hr(50 year= 200h/year).
and lca is light it expected to be flown more and still have life of 40+ year. so yes.

and yes there is news that lca mk2 go with epe and it is different from EDE (EDE WILL INCREASE THRUST AND LIFE WHILE EPE ONLY INCREASE THRUST AND YES GE WORKING EPE WAY BEFORE 2013 )

So which engine is coming in Tejas mark2 f414 ins6 of 98 kn or f414 epe of 120 kn . I think it is f414 ins6 of 98 kn is for Tejas mark 2 and f414 ins6 uprated by some feature from ede + some feature of epe @ 110 kn is for amca ( if Kaveri snecma fail to achieve 115 kn or fall short in tot ) . What you think ? Please also provide source as it is very interesting to see epe in Tejas mark 2 . Thanks in advance .

 

[Scrutator]

"F-16’s block 40,42 life expectancy tops out at 8,000 flight hours. A SLEP upgrade could extend those life spans an additional 2,000 to 4,000 flight hours." total 12000 hr
rafal life span is close to 10000 hr(50 year= 200h/year).
and lca is light it expected to be flown more and still have life of 40+ year. so yes.

and yes there is news that lca mk2 go with epe and it is different from EDE (EDE WILL INCREASE THRUST AND LIFE WHILE EPE ONLY INCREASE THRUST AND YES GE WORKING EPE WAY BEFORE 2013 )

The contract with India is NOT for the delivery of EPE engines!!! Leave alone having it actually delivered from 2013 onwards(that's complete BS)!!! India has been WANTING to co-develop EPE along with GE but that JV hasn't been approved by the US as yet. At this time EPE is more of a concept than an actual project! EDE however has been realized!!! So, let's not just mix a whole lot of hearsay and conclude something abominable!!!!

Show me a reliable source that claimed that Mk2 would sport an EPE engine. EPE was always being considered for AMCA only(because EPE doesn't exist as yet - and needs several years to develop)!!!!
Show me one reliable/logical source that claims that ADA has designed Tejas for a service life of 10,500 hours!!!

The original issue was how many Kaveri engines will actually be consumed in the next 20 years as a result of Safran's claim to make Kaveri engine available for MK1A and for Mk2 (as part of some quid-pro-quo for enabling the purchase of additional 200 Rafales). And yes, Kaveri needs to be developed for the long term aircraft development strategy. However I am just baffled by the hyperbole, the wild extrapolation, the illogical numbers being thrown around and the quoting of fake news!!