Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[salute]

At least on one point :
Kaveri seemed to be a variable cycle engine. M88 not.

so thats not much of a big thing for rafale engines or is it ???

meaning is it gonna be some beneficial for rafale too ???

 

[BON PLAN]

so thats not much of a big thing for rafale engines or is it ???

meaning is it gonna be some beneficial for rafale too ???

I don't know.
The next generation US jet fighter engine is due to be based on variable cycle... So it's probably something interesting for the futur. On Rafale or on another jet.

 

[MrPresident]

Not being pessimistic here, but are we not counting the chickens before it is hatched? I Agree with Abingdonboy, I believe if Safran is able to get the engine working, there will be another tranche of 'Rafale' order (which sounds much more like modi ).

 

[Vijyes]

I think Parrikar/Modi wants a deal with safran at the expense of GE. win-win for India and France but lose for US. Evn if the thrust increases to 65/105, it will be suited for AMCA and Naval Tejas MK2. If it touches 55/90kN, then Tejas MK1 will fit with kaveri most definitely. If India has developed generation 2 Single Crystal technology, then 90kN should be done. For 105,we need gen 3. The recent proposal to transfer assembly line to India by Lockheed for F16 and SAAB's offer for indigenous assembly will definitely put pressure on Safran. If this was a maneuver of Modi/Parrikar, then it definitely the greatest in indian defence ever.

 

[Alok Arya]

I think Parrikar/Modi wants a deal with safran at the expense of GE. win-win for India and France but lose for US. Evn if the thrust increases to 65/105, it will be suited for AMCA and Naval Tejas MK2. If it touches 55/90kN, then Tejas MK1 will fit with kaveri most definitely. If India has developed generation 2 Single Crystal technology, then 90kN should be done. For 105,we need gen 3. The recent proposal to transfer assembly line to India by Lockheed for F16 and SAAB's offer for indigenous assembly will definitely put pressure on Safran. If this was a maneuver of Modi/Parrikar, then it definitely the greatest in indian defence ever.

India already has second generation scb , and there is article on net that HAL use blisk and 3D printing for their htfe . So a engine of 55/90 kn was already possible with out France help . If you mastered second generation scb , future generation is less difficult to master as main tech of casting remain more or less same , except change in composition of alloy . What is lacking is degining of low pressure stage for maximum utilisation of tet of high pressure stage with needing modern tech such as wide cord blade , computer assisted degine of blade , better blisk , better tensile strength disc of lighter weight . Also with increase of tet subsonic profile of low pressure stage will change to trans sonic profile with increase of pressure ratio . So Kaveri have to redegine in each and every expect , both in high as well as low pressure stage . I think base line Kaveri snecma will be 65/95 kn with third generation scb , thermobaric coating , better all fan blisk , etc etc with a scope of tweaking to 75/110 kn with better metallurgy . What way Kaveri snecma is executing I thing specks should already will be fixed , and engine should be going on ground testing . If all things go in right direction 2018 will be mile stone when engine goes to flying test bed .

 

[wuzetian]

India already has second generation scb , and there is article on net that HAL use blisk and 3D printing for their htfe . So a engine of 55/90 kn was already possible with out France help . If you mastered second generation scb , future generation is less difficult to master as main tech of casting remain more or less same , except change in composition of alloy . What is lacking is degining of low pressure stage for maximum utilisation of tet of high pressure stage with needing modern tech such as wide cord blade , computer assisted degine of blade , better blisk , better tensile strength disc of lighter weight . Also with increase of tet subsonic profile of low pressure stage will change to trans sonic profile with increase of pressure ratio . So Kaveri have to redegine in each and every expect , both in high as well as low pressure stage . I think base line Kaveri snecma will be 65/95 kn with third generation scb , thermobaric coating , better all fan blisk , etc etc with a scope of tweaking to 75/110 kn with better metallurgy . What way Kaveri snecma is executing I thing specks should already will be fixed , and engine should be going on ground testing . If all things go in right direction 2018 will be mile stone when engine goes to flying test bed .

Which are the small indigenous jet engines India is producing ?

 

[lcafanboy]

Which are the small indigenous jet engines India is producing ?

HAL HTFE-25, which will also be upgraded by snecma to more than 35kn dry and with after burner 55-57 kn.

 

[Scrutator]

Calculate the number of fighters required for IAF 45sqdns and IN 15-20sqdns for its carrier and coastal protection, now add future Indian Army air corp's 6-10 sqdns need (yes Indian army needs separate air power for SEAD and CAS an have been vocal about it) plus export of LCA & AMCA. UAVs like GHATAK, AURA and several others will also need these engines, here improved HAL HTFE 35 will come. AMCA alone could cross 600 numbers in IAF and IN alone, with each AMCA requiring 2 engines and 2 for replacement. TEJAS MK1A & MK2 would also need these so will MK1 which are now being assembled for MLU plus add export of engines.

Now calculate replacement engines for these and you will get the figure which I quoted.

Firstly the replacement rate for newer engines will not be at the rate of the junk Russian engines - as such one shouldn't use that to calculate the 'number' of future engines. Secondly only a few of them will use Kaveri (in any form of fashion). That's why the $25-$30 billion 'savings' (paying in itself for Rafales etc) is pie-in-the-sky number!!
Further, (by contract) if success of Kaveri would lead to purchase of another 200 Rafales (and not larger induction of T, then logically the utility of Kaveri is further reduced!!!

 

[Vijyes]

I don't think there will be second rafale order of 200. It could be well within additional 100 rafales. AMCA has much bigger role to play. AMCA will not be T50, but a modified version with some aspects of the design drawn from T50/PAK-FA/FGFA which will be capable of almost complete indigenous production including engines and radars.

 

[Scrutator]

I don't think there will be second rafale order of 200. It could be well within additional 100 rafales. AMCA has much bigger role to play. AMCA will not be T50, but a modified version with some aspects of the design drawn from T50/PAK-FA/FGFA which will be capable of almost complete indigenous production including engines and radars.

I am not stating that there would be 200 additional Rafales (including Naval); I am just quoting someone else's reason why they think Safran will help develop Kaveri (quid pro quo from India apparently).

 

[kunal1123]

Firstly the replacement rate for newer engines will not be at the rate of the junk Russian engines - as such one shouldn't use that to calculate the 'number' of future engines. Secondly only a few of them will use Kaveri (in any form of fashion). That's why the $25-$30 billion 'savings' (paying in itself for Rafales etc) is pie-in-the-sky number!!
Further, (by contract) if success of Kaveri would lead to purchase of another 200 Rafales (and not larger induction of T, then logically the utility of Kaveri is further reduced!!!

when f414 was ordered it is around 690 mili. for 99 that come around 6.96 per engine. now let consider that last 50 mk1a +150lca mk2 + 250 amca +80 Namca used the kaveri and with only 3 time engine replacement the total value is around 20 billion usd(does not consider inflation) + add to that any export order.

ok reduce the number of engine replacement to 2 and amca to 200 then it is still be around 17-18 billion my friend and that only if kaveri able to achieve 65+/90+ in current form and updated to 75+/115+ for amca

 

[kunal1123]

WELL WHO ASKING THAT NOW ENGINE NOT REQUIRED TO CHANGE...

AND THIS IS IN 2015
"Since an aero engine's life is about 1,500 hours, each fighter - with a service life of 5,000-6,000 hours - consumes 3.5 engines. That means GE could be supplying 700 engines for the Tejas Marks I and II, and 1,400 engines for the AMCA over their service lives. This is a sizeable share of the Indian aero engine market, which the DRDO estimates to be worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over coming decades."
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-engine-for-gen-5-fighter-115121200004_1.html

 

[lcafanboy]

Firstly the replacement rate for newer engines will not be at the rate of the junk Russian engines - as such one shouldn't use that to calculate the 'number' of future engines. Secondly only a few of them will use Kaveri (in any form of fashion). That's why the $25-$30 billion 'savings' (paying in itself for Rafales etc) is pie-in-the-sky number!!
Further, (by contract) if success of Kaveri would lead to purchase of another 200 Rafales (and not larger induction of T, then logically the utility of Kaveri is further reduced!!!

Whatever I had quoted is bare minimum. We need engines for LCA, AMCA, UAV like AURA, Ghatak, replacement engines for these,etc. These numbers will easily exceed what I had quoted in 20-25yrs.

We need Fighters tomorrow that is the urgency still we are ordering next year. All migs are grounded. Only 70-80 Jaguar s are in good condition of which 60odds will be upgraded to Darin 3 49 Mirage s, 69 mig 29 and 230odd su30 MKI. Now with 60℅ availablity calculate how many are available. Now calculate Fighters required for two front war. You will get the picture.

Rafales will come in big numbers but government wants to milk the opportunity to get bigger bang for buck by forcing France and Safran to give engine technology. That's the reason why Rafale deal is delayed as hard negotiation is being done by Parrikar. I still insist if engine technology is delivered expect Rafale to come with 250 to 300 numbers.

 

[Vijyes]

If rafale is purchased in 250-300, what about AMCA? Will that go waste? Also, LCA is needed to replace MiG21, which is having the sole aim of targeting short range targets (600km), mainly Pakistan.

 

[kunal1123]

If rafale is purchased in 250-300, what about AMCA? Will that go waste? Also, LCA is needed to replace MiG21, which is having the sole aim of targeting short range targets (600km), mainly Pakistan.

currently iaf have around 120 mig 21 and 125 mig 27 which lca will replace and deficit of around 100 lighter aircraft will fill by (i guess f16/saab according to news that i doubt. ) that so around 2023-25 iaf will will need around 100-150 medium fighter fo get complete 42 Squadrons after 2025-26 replacement of Mirage and Jaguar Squadrons . total aircraft needed for amca to start production (slowly) 200

here is the expected ifa strength in 2030
Squadrons--39 --- Total Aircraft--- 699-- 30MKI--271 Rafale -- 136 TejasI/II --200 FGFA --50 AMCA--36

add 54 for IN ,Rafael total number is around 190.(i have not add f16/saab because i dont think that it will go through )

 

[BON PLAN]

I think Parrikar/Modi wants a deal with safran at the expense of GE. win-win for India and France but lose for US. Evn if the thrust increases to 65/105, it will be suited for AMCA and Naval Tejas MK2. If it touches 55/90kN, then Tejas MK1 will fit with kaveri most definitely. If India has developed generation 2 Single Crystal technology, then 90kN should be done. For 105,we need gen 3. The recent proposal to transfer assembly line to India by Lockheed for F16 and SAAB's offer for indigenous assembly will definitely put pressure on Safran. If this was a maneuver of Modi/Parrikar, then it definitely the greatest in indian defence ever.

France is thinking for the after Rafale area... High rank from DA, Safran, Thales and french officials probably think it's better to work with you than with european Aerospace company.
Why? You need great amount of materials, it's good for business. You have to learn in some technology, so it's interesting for us, at least better than to compete against other west company.

 

[Scrutator]

WELL WHO ASKING THAT NOW ENGINE NOT REQUIRED TO CHANGE...

AND THIS IS IN 2015
"Since an aero engine's life is about 1,500 hours, each fighter - with a service life of 5,000-6,000 hours - consumes 3.5 engines. That means GE could be supplying 700 engines for the Tejas Marks I and II, and 1,400 engines for the AMCA over their service lives. This is a sizeable share of the Indian aero engine market, which the DRDO estimates to be worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over coming decades."
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-engine-for-gen-5-fighter-115121200004_1.html

Ajai Shukla erred in this article by using the lifespans of Russian engines as a yardstick to estimate the GE engines's number requirements.

 

[lcafanboy]

If rafale is purchased in 250-300, what about AMCA? Will that go waste? Also, LCA is needed to replace MiG21, which is having the sole aim of targeting short range targets (600km), mainly Pakistan.

AMCA will not come tomorrow. Expect AMCA to come after 2032 by earliest or 2035 to be precise. Till then expect all jaguars and migs even mig 29 s to go. Which Fighter do you think will replace them or you want IAF to be a paper force, having just 270 su 30 MKI & 100 odd LCA.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

AMCA will not come tomorrow. Expect AMCA to come after 2032 by earliest or 2035 to be precise. Till then expect all jaguars and migs even mig 29 s to go. Which Fighter do you think will replace them or you want IAF to be a paper force, having just 270 su 30 MKI & 100 odd LCA.

You kidding lol if 2035 is the date then Drdo And Hal Might Also work on an 6th Gen Fighter and Make MCA Tejas( Tejas MK2 Twin Engine)

 

[Indx TechStyle]

AMCA will not come tomorrow. Expect AMCA to come after 2032 by earliest or 2035 to be precise. Till then expect all jaguars and migs even mig 29 s to go. Which Fighter do you think will replace them or you want IAF to be a paper force, having just 270 su 30 MKI & 100 odd LCA.

Worse scenario is 2030 if program doesn't shelve.