India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[IndianHawk]

Quote this man if anyone is trolling Chinese forums . They hate him with passion.

 

[Niks_12]

Guys, this is a must read to understand Chinese psyche, and some of it resonates with what I felt/saw during my time in China as well -

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
PART 1

My post goes a bit in the understanding China direction, but I'll tie it back to the current situation.

The basis for my understanding is that I studied Chinese and China quite some time back. I lived there for a bit and worked as an interpreter and consultant with Chinese coming to India for a few years. However the last time I had a proper visit to China was for the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre in 2009. My Chinese since then has gotten quite rusty because I had to learn another language, shifted to a completely different field, etc. Since then I have just kept myself sporadically informed and had some contact with China experts and Chinese scholars. I however have no idea about Indian defense beyond what I have read on BRF over the past 12 years and don't know much about weapon systems, etc. So please keep in mind that I'm no expert, I'm just an average guy trying to contribute my knowledge. Also what I write about the Chinese perspective might be offensive, please remember these are not my views, I just want to help you understand how the Chinese see us.

The best article on how the Chinese see the current situation is China’s Strategic Assessment of the Ladakh Clash by Yun Sun.

How the Chinese see us Indians

1. Inferior: There is absolutely no question about this. If anyone talks about how they consider India as the origin of Buddhism, or ancient civilisation, then it's garbage. China doesn't give a damn about all that. There might be a reluctant admission that India has an ancient history but for them that history ended with the arrival of the British. The cultural revolution also pretty much cut off the contact of China with their own heritage, so they don't value culture too highly. Japan makes them insecure, USA makes them very insecure but India is inferior and not really to be taken seriously. Also India is poor and dirty.

2. Arrogant: This is a very bad thing in Chinese eyes. Humility is a virtue, arrogance is a sin. Arrogance for them means that India does not know its place. This started from the time of Nehru who tried to pretend that he was a leader of Asia. All the stuff about the UN seat for China and all that, that was China's right, Nehru was doing his duty, that's all. That's why they like Pakistan. It is servile, flatters the leaders and knows its place. (This is not a new thing, even declassified cables from the 1950s show the Pakistanis were being chamchas and undermining India).

3. Tools of powerful countries The first time the Chinese had contact with Indians in modern times was with Sikh policemen in service of the British. This shapes their perception of Indians till today. I'll quote some academic research by Isabella Jackson about this:

[Popular histories] usually include a reference to the slang
term by which the Sikhs were known among Chinese, hongtou asan,
which has been translated variously as ‘red-headed monkeys’, ‘red-
headed rascals’, or ‘turbaned number threes’. All reflect their status
in Chinese eyes as the vicious lackeys of their British masters. Hongtou
is a reference to the red turbans that formed part of the police uniform
for the Sikhs, while asan is thought to derive from the Sikhs’ third-
class social position in Shanghai, or from a transliteration of either the
British exclamation ‘I say’ or ‘ah, sir’, as Shanghai’s Chinese addressed
the Sikhs. Popular racist perceptions of Sikhs [see them as] ‘black devils’ (heigui), the Indian troops of the
British in nineteenth-century China,

PDF of the article

All current social media discussion of the India-China conflict uses the term hongtou 紅頭 (red turbans) or asan 阿三 (number threes) or heigui 黑鬼 (black devils) to describe us. Most of their racist caricatures also show the Indian Army as composed of Sikhs. Indians oppressed the Chinese for the British, later they served the interest of the Soviets and now they want to serve the interests of the USA. They thought the entire idea of NAM was a self-serving lie by Nehru to fool Asian countries while serving the interests of white masters. That's pretty much what they think of India today. "Strategic autonomy" for them is again a fake front that India puts up (in fear of China) while it secretly serves the interests of the USA against China.

4. Duplicitous They have always thought of Indians in this way, partly self-projection. Partly because they see the adversary in their own image. The idea of honor is completely alien to Chinese thought. Which means all this talk of India about honor or keeping its word must be a lie. Which means they are hiding something else. Sometimes, China is smart enough to see through India (and see whatever they wanted to see). Being honest is not something anyone places too much value on. In China it is every man for himself. They wouldn't think twice about cheating anyone and corruption (also within the PLA) is expected and only punished as part of a package deal, if someone also commits another crime like disloyalty to the party.

5. Divided Since we are a democracy, all our internal differences are all out there for the entire world to see. The Chinese differences are not visible, not even to the Chinese themselves. So they can comment about Racism in USA without bothering to give a second thought to their prison camps (which anyway only have the second class Uyghurs). They see India divided between rich and poor, castes and naturally all sorts of political parties.

These are all the comfortable opinions China holds but there are some things that make them uneasy or slightly challenge their picture of India. The space programme makes them very insecure (not just them actually). The nuclear programme makes them angry, India has no right to do such things. The CCP also fears to some extent that a successful democracy might give the people the wrong ideas. Hong Kong is an ideological threat. Taiwan too, that's why they love sharing videos of fist-fights in the Taiwanese Parliament. The Indian IT thing made them uncomfortable earlier but they then decided Indians were good at doing stupid repetitive stuff.

How the Chinese see their neighbours
Simply put as vassals. There is a periphery which needs to be periodically pacified. China is the centre of the world, if any of the small countries at its periphery gets uppity then it must periodically be taught a lesson. A peaceful periphery is especially important when the Kingdom is facing challenges. Xinjiang quite literally means "new frontier". Tibet is also part of the same strategy. Having a frontier area outside the main heartland is part of the Chinese tradition (also inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia is another story). These regions usually faced benign neglect and occasional severe repression and they were just kept around as an insulation of the heartland, extracting resources and all was secondary. So we have the heartland, directly ruled barbarians (Tibet, Xinjiang), and tributaries (Laos, Mongolia but also uppity ones like Vietnam) outside that. The tributaries should send gifts to the emperor and recognise his authority and they'll be left alone.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

RUMINT : The Ghatak platoon snatched atleast 10 Nail studded clubs from PLA and H!t many with it

 

[Niks_12]

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
Part 2 and conclusion of previous post

How China sees itself

• China is not a Communist country: It is a country ruled by a communist party, that's the extent of its communism. In some ways it is like Post-Soviet republics of the USSR with a hyper-capitalist, robber baron, crony capitalist oligarchy.
• It is a Han nation. All other minorities get to wear regional costumes like dressed up monkeys when the attend a few congresses in Beijing, but they are second class. This is seen in their repression of Tibetans and Uyghurs. Partly, they want to cilvilise (or make Han) these barbarians practicing strange religions, and stuck in the past.
• China is a modern civilised country (almost western). Think Meiji restoration Japan, think Singapore. See the CCP functionaries wearing western suits, with CCP badges.
• China is on its way to restoring its place as the centre of the world. The USA is an obstacle it will need to overcome for this.
• The CCP has the mandate of heaven. All Chinese emperors needed to have this, otherwise someone with the mandate would usurp their place. CCP is the current dynasty and Xi is the current emperor (for life). Everything becomes a lot clearer when China is seen in its imperial tradition.
• China is orderly and stable. At the moment. The typical condition of China over the past 200 years has been of disorder. The Taiping rebellion, civil war, cultural revolution, etc. So finally the CCP has brought order. Order is way more important than "freedom". Freedom is something they know from Hollywood, not really for China but maybe its worth visiting Disneyworld to see what it's like.
• China is corrupt to the core and the CCP is the heart of this corruption. This is something most people find terrible and all the protests and opposition are inevitably protests against corrupt petty functionaries. But to get rid of corruption, you have to get rid of the CCP and if you get rid of the CCP, China wouldn't function. At the moment corruption is not as ostentatious as before. People are keeping their heads down because Xi was collecting heads to stabilise his rule. Since everyone is corrupt, everyone was afraid of his anti-corruption drive.
• China is a merchant empire. The CCP to sustain its corruption needs heavy trade. If the size of the pie shrinks, there will be infighting. Which will weaken its hold.
• CCP has two enemies The Chinese People and the USA. The fall of the USSR has been the biggest nightmare of the CCP, and both these factors are thought to have played a role. The CCP spends a very substantial amount on internal security, according to some accounts as much as on external security.
• China has 3 classes: Peasants (the majority, who nowadays are usually migrant workers); the nouveau riche and the rulers CCP. All three are afraid of each other. The newly rich are happy, obedient and scared to lose what they have, send their children to study abroad and hope to migrate to USA; the worker/peasants are the ones who cause disturbances and are in terrible shape. The rulers are insanely rich, insanely corrupt and insanely paranoid, everyone has at least 2 different passports for their children, apart from the chinese one.

What is China doing in Ladakh?

Based on what I have written so far I think this is a mission to subdue the periphery. The army is on an expedition to pacify the frontier and punish the uppity kingdom on the periphery, India. Show them who's the boss and then return to the heartland.

This is also about warning India not to join an alliance with the USA. For us, this might sound ridiculous but when you read how the Chinese see us, it makes perfect sense that we will not ally ourselves with the USA after receiving this warning. Ideas like humiliation being bad for relations are alien to them (humility is a virtue, they are simply showing India its place). That we might have self-respect or might actually care about strategic autonomy or be protecting our own interests are simply incomprehensible and completely out of sync with how they see us.

Several people have tried to think of the current situation in terms of military strategy. That makes absolutely no sense. It is almost certainly not about protecting the Aksai Chin highway. Firstly the PLA is not too bright in terms of military tactics, for example having 200 trucks inside a gorge seems foolish even to a civilian like me. Secondly, the empire never expects trouble or attack inside its borders. I think maybe one or two junior officers in the PLA might entertain the thought of an Indian armored attack and prepare a report on that but I think that's inconceivable for the majority. Also practically, China has enough heavy lift capability and construction skills to have a replacement highway running very quickly.

For those suggesting more fantastic ideas like a shortcut to PoK over the Karakoram pass. The Karakoram Pass is the one point on the boundary that there is no conflict about. Secondly, the Karakoram Highway has nothing to do with the Karakoram Pass. The geography of the area makes it impossible to build a road. Thirdly even the KKH is more or less a gesture for Pakistan, nothing seriously economic about it. it is far away from the economic and population heartland of China. Pakistan is a model tributary state, so it is rewarded with favors like the CPEC. From at least 2013, I have been telling anyone who would listen that it's a big joke. Some Chinese companies will get to build stuff and make a lot of money, which will be shared through the hierarchy but trade with Pakistan over the KKH makes utterly, absolutely no sense.

The current conflict is for the average Chinese, out there in Timbuktu. Tibet is already like Antarctica inhabited by the savages for the majority of them. And then there is some fight with India, a country they have heard of. It's quite an exotic place, people dance all the time, they've seen Bollywood movies. That's why I think the idea of domestic messaging doesn't quite fly. Hong Kong is easy to crush, also sends out a message about the supremacy of the CCP and the futility of democracy protests, but Tibet, as far away as it can get? With a third rate country like India? They have a vague idea that it's full of poor people who dance but is there really glory in defeating their army? That's only to be expected surely. This has also created a headache for the CCP, did high-tech Han warriors actually get slaughtered by dirty Red Turbans? [This is currently a very popular question on Chinese social media, which is being asked indirectly in many different ways].


Lessons for India

• Conflict with China is inevitable. So we must make sure we find the right time and place for it. It will not be a total war. Total war is too unpredictable and might cut into the CCPs earnings.
• Localised conflict is feasible and manageable Tibet is not worth much to the CCP. Of course a dynasty never allows its size to be reduced, but if Lhasa or Amdo or any city in Tibet or Xinjiang were destroyed, the CCP wouldn't even blink. But the CCP will at no costs see even the smallest threat to the heartland (south-west China). So escalation won't proceed beyond a certain step on the ladder
• Any war will be about temporary deterrence and not permanent victory. When we give them a bloody nose, they'll leave us alone for 30 years. But then we'll have to fight them again
• Diplomacy is about delay and obfuscation, not resolution. Talking helps pass the time until its time for military conflict. Any promises aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on. A loophole will be found as and when necessary.
• It's not Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) who's relevant to Chinese military strategy but Weiqi. I find it a bit ridiculous because The Art of War is quite elliptical and can be interpreted as one wishes. I haven't read it myself and I'm convinced most people who quote it haven't either. What Chinese Generals were also mesmerised by was the Gulf War 1. That and RMA have very much shaped their understanding of how the next war (with USA) will be fought.
• They will be hopeless at mountain warfare From everything I read, their strategy seems to be one of overwhelming the enemy. Send 2000 soldiers, 200 tanks, 500 trucks and 20 bulldozers to scare 200 enemy soldiers. This strategy might work on Tiananmen Square (as it indeed did) but not in the mountains. I don't know anything about weapons systems but I have a suspicion networked warfare is not really the best way to fight in the mountains. Massed forces are also probably not the best idea in Ladakh (perhaps with the exception of Depsang)
• This might make me sound like a Pakistani, but the Chinese have nothing to even remotely match the Indian soldier's spirit. I just tried to think of how many of my Chinese acquaintances might be willing to die for their country and I honestly can't think of a single one. In case of India obviously I have family, friends, neighbors, one doesn't need more than 5 seconds to think of 10 people. The Chinese spirit comes from Han superiority and fear of their officers, especially the political officers. This means they are ripe for desertion, and if there are non-Han soldiers they can probably be used to create disorder within their armies. The han superiority also makes them afraid of barbarians. They are always scared by people with heavy beards and scary mustaches.
• their lack of democracy means they are very brittle against information warfare. I had posted earlier how Chinese social media was relying on the messaging of the new Baba Banaras twitter account. All their news came from Indian media. If we can spread some fake videos or pics of mutilated Chinese soldiers, that will not enrage but scare them. It will perfectly fit their image of savage barbarians and the modern Chinese population is all up for CGI warfare but not to see skulls crushed with rocks.
• The planning is done by Generals, approved by Beijing, and then flows down to the soldiers. This system lacks innovation and probably won't be very flexible on the ground. Though it may very well lead to brilliant strategy in the case of experienced generals, the tactics will probably be shoddy and predictable.
• We should try to understand them and how they see us and take advantage of it. We must also be willing to adapt to their working style, which might mean giving up on values like honour and truth. We always feel betrayed by them because they act differently to our expectations. When we understand their worldview, we will be the ones taking advantage of them.
• What CCP does not want is a widespread front and protracted warfare. Traditionally such pacification exercises (Ladakh, but also Xinjiang and Tibet) were conducted in order to free the empire for more important work (like confronting the USA). We will know we have won this round when General Zhao is recalled to Beijing.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Guys, this is a must read to understand Chinese psyche, and some of it resonates with what I felt/saw during my time in China as well -

Thanks to RaviB, a BRF poster -
PART 1

My post goes a bit in the understanding China direction, but I'll tie it back to the current situation.

The basis for my understanding is that I studied Chinese and China quite some time back. I lived there for a bit and worked as an interpreter and consultant with Chinese coming to India for a few years. However the last time I had a proper visit to China was for the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre in 2009. My Chinese since then has gotten quite rusty because I had to learn another language, shifted to a completely different field, etc. Since then I have just kept myself sporadically informed and had some contact with China experts and Chinese scholars. I however have no idea about Indian defense beyond what I have read on BRF over the past 12 years and don't know much about weapon systems, etc. So please keep in mind that I'm no expert, I'm just an average guy trying to contribute my knowledge. Also what I write about the Chinese perspective might be offensive, please remember these are not my views, I just want to help you understand how the Chinese see us.

The best article on how the Chinese see the current situation is China’s Strategic Assessment of the Ladakh Clash by Yun Sun.

How the Chinese see us Indians

1. Inferior: There is absolutely no question about this. If anyone talks about how they consider India as the origin of Buddhism, or ancient civilisation, then it's garbage. China doesn't give a damn about all that. There might be a reluctant admission that India has an ancient history but for them that history ended with the arrival of the British. The cultural revolution also pretty much cut off the contact of China with their own heritage, so they don't value culture too highly. Japan makes them insecure, USA makes them very insecure but India is inferior and not really to be taken seriously. Also India is poor and dirty.

2. Arrogant: This is a very bad thing in Chinese eyes. Humility is a virtue, arrogance is a sin. Arrogance for them means that India does not know its place. This started from the time of Nehru who tried to pretend that he was a leader of Asia. All the stuff about the UN seat for China and all that, that was China's right, Nehru was doing his duty, that's all. That's why they like Pakistan. It is servile, flatters the leaders and knows its place. (This is not a new thing, even declassified cables from the 1950s show the Pakistanis were being chamchas and undermining India).

3. Tools of powerful countries The first time the Chinese had contact with Indians in modern times was with Sikh policemen in service of the British. This shapes their perception of Indians till today. I'll quote some academic research by Isabella Jackson about this:

PDF of the article

All current social media discussion of the India-China conflict uses the term hongtou 紅頭 (red turbans) or asan 阿三 (number threes) or heigui 黑鬼 (black devils) to describe us. Most of their racist caricatures also show the Indian Army as composed of Sikhs. Indians oppressed the Chinese for the British, later they served the interest of the Soviets and now they want to serve the interests of the USA. They thought the entire idea of NAM was a self-serving lie by Nehru to fool Asian countries while serving the interests of white masters. That's pretty much what they think of India today. "Strategic autonomy" for them is again a fake front that India puts up (in fear of China) while it secretly serves the interests of the USA against China.

4. Duplicitous They have always thought of Indians in this way, partly self-projection. Partly because they see the adversary in their own image. The idea of honor is completely alien to Chinese thought. Which means all this talk of India about honor or keeping its word must be a lie. Which means they are hiding something else. Sometimes, China is smart enough to see through India (and see whatever they wanted to see). Being honest is not something anyone places too much value on. In China it is every man for himself. They wouldn't think twice about cheating anyone and corruption (also within the PLA) is expected and only punished as part of a package deal, if someone also commits another crime like disloyalty to the party.

5. Divided Since we are a democracy, all our internal differences are all out there for the entire world to see. The Chinese differences are not visible, not even to the Chinese themselves. So they can comment about Racism in USA without bothering to give a second thought to their prison camps (which anyway only have the second class Uyghurs). They see India divided between rich and poor, castes and naturally all sorts of political parties.

These are all the comfortable opinions China holds but there are some things that make them uneasy or slightly challenge their picture of India. The space programme makes them very insecure (not just them actually). The nuclear programme makes them angry, India has no right to do such things. The CCP also fears to some extent that a successful democracy might give the people the wrong ideas. Hong Kong is an ideological threat. Taiwan too, that's why they love sharing videos of fist-fights in the Taiwanese Parliament. The Indian IT thing made them uncomfortable earlier but they then decided Indians were good at doing stupid repetitive stuff.

How the Chinese see their neighbours
Simply put as vassals. There is a periphery which needs to be periodically pacified. China is the centre of the world, if any of the small countries at its periphery gets uppity then it must periodically be taught a lesson. A peaceful periphery is especially important when the Kingdom is facing challenges. Xinjiang quite literally means "new frontier". Tibet is also part of the same strategy. Having a frontier area outside the main heartland is part of the Chinese tradition (also inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia is another story). These regions usually faced benign neglect and occasional severe repression and they were just kept around as an insulation of the heartland, extracting resources and all was secondary. So we have the heartland, directly ruled barbarians (Tibet, Xinjiang), and tributaries (Laos, Mongolia but also uppity ones like Vietnam) outside that. The tributaries should send gifts to the emperor and recognise his authority and they'll be left alone.

And we think Chinese are bat eating primitive cockroach eating motherfuckers.

 

[Rxbanda]

Man... if you understand Telugu, this is such a pleasure to hear
Translation:
He was saying that in the previous govt., a soldier is accountable for every shot fired. Now, the govt. has given so much freedom that if if you empty the magazine, you are not grilled for it.

 

[IndianHawk]

Let's focus on what's happening next. Some interesting things have started happening specially WTO level.
Is this the start of the fall of China?


The Indian Army administered a crushing defeat to the invading Chinese People's Liberation Army, which hides its true high casualty numbers desperately trying to save face. U.S. Secretary of State Pompeo clearly blamed China for escalating border tensions.https://bit.ly/37OhaJF
https://t.co/7kYozs1Ocm

China is in a downward spiral. First, the Indian Army defeats China in the Galwan Valley, now China loses to the European Union in a World Trade Organization dispute. https://bit.ly/37K95Wl

Historic defeat: Chinese Communist Party loses WTO dispute to European Union

The Chinese Communist Party lost its so-called market economy status in a dispute with the European ...

thebl.com

The Chinese Communist Party lost its so-called market economy status in a dispute with the European Union (EU) at the World Trade Organization (WTO) that is considered historic.

For four years the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) tried to force the EU to recognize it as a market economy, a case which it had already lost last year by a provisional decision, and which now stands firm, as Bloomberg pointed out on June 16. The EU argued that the CCP heavily subsidized its industries, in particular, the steel and aluminum industries, which made its sales prices on the international market unfair.

As a result of the decision, the EU and the United States will be able to apply high “anti-dumping” tariffs to goods from the CCP, in order to protect their industries. The CCP was accused of applying the system known as “dumping,” which offers products at a much lower price than the real one and damages the economies of the importing countries, and then takes over the market and raises prices.

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer called the case the “most serious WTO dispute.”

Even President Donald Trump himself warned the WTO to take a good look at the situation, otherwise, his country could withdraw from the organization. In the process the CCP “lost so much that they didn’t want the world to see the panel’s reasoning,” said one knowledgeable official, quoted by Reuters.

“They were going to win something, but they were overshadowed by the big defeat they had in the main suit,” the official added. Recent research shows that the CCP has infiltrated many international organizations, including the UN and the world’s major financial institutions, such as the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and the Inter-American Development Bank.

Within this framework, the action of the World Health Organization is highlighted, accused of irregularities and complicity with the CCP in its handling of the CCP Virus pandemic, which is causing death and economic losses as it passes through the world.


View attachment 50876

This is extremely humiliating for china . They wanted to appear strong against USA most and now US veterans are laughing at china. Lol

 

[IndianHawk]

And we think Chinese are bat eating primitive cockroach eating motherfuckers.

That they are that's why they believe in a medieval world of vessel and tribute.

Read samir Saran analysis of chinkies.

 

[Niks_12]

And we think Chinese are bat eating primitive cockroach eating motherfuckers.

Whatever barbaric assholes they are, it is important to know their thought process and strategy. This will ensure we can use their weaknesses against them, saving us precious lives and resources. A win the easier way, taking tactical/strategic advantage of situations is much better than trying to win the straight hard brute force way.

 

[IndianHawk]

Independent like Nepal who has made our life hell today?

Nepal independence might not last long if it continues current path.

 

[rock127]

Indian army defeats China in the Galwan valley..... Music to my ears. Lets echo this one to all the anti-GOI.

US PsyOps is better than us but seems like we never learn.

This is extremely humiliating for china . They wanted to appear strong against USA most and now US veterans are laughing at china. Lol

This happens when you REFUSE to admit even 1 dead.
Life of a Chinese/Paki soldier is nothing more than a insect for their establishment.

 

[Piyadassi]

These people don't realise that while China and India's military interests may differ, Tibet being under Chinese governance is better than it being independent. This is if you are looking at it from a standard of living point of view. Bhutan is an Indian protectorate but it is one of the least developed regions while Tibet is much more developed.

As for it being under Indian governance, the fact that Uttarakhand/Uttaranchal still has hours of power cuts everyday with deteriorating infrastructure is enough to show that we aren't capable of developing Tibet which is even harder to work in.

What development are you talking about? Kicking out Dalai Lama and suppression of religion of Tibetans might be development to you not to the natives. Culture and religion was the soul of Tibet that was destroyed by the parasite Mao Zedong. Current Tibet is nothing but a Zombieland. On the contrary, Bhutan still enjoys its rich cultural heritage and live peacefully with Love and respect.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

@LETHALFORCE Follow his comments he is doing much more damage than Trump himself. Calling PRC as a rogue country and what nots.. In history of India its unheard of. A western country official talking in favor of our mother land.

your enemies enemy is your friend . Many western nations respect and support India’s stance

 

[IndianHawk]

So chellany played foul even during op blue star..why are such people so close to corridors of power in India ?

In any case he has been very consistent against china. He has always said china can't be trusted .

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Whatever barbaric assholes they are, it is important to know their thought process and strategy. This will ensure we can use their weaknesses against them, saving us precious lives and resources. A win the easier way, taking tactical/strategic advantage of situations is much better than trying to win the straight hard brute force way.

Chinese are not humans.I sometimes think they are robots who are only driven by their goal.

So things like respecting others,friendship,faith etc are of no use to them.

If you ever visit China you will see they have no religious inclination.

If they want to build a road over a temple they will.No one will even care.

We are totally opposite of china in every sense.

Our country is more human.We have values we respect.And we can never have anything with Chinese.

China will never accept Indias rise.China just needs slaves like Pakistan in the region.They want world dominance and they are expansionist..you can never be friendly with them.

 

[Rxbanda]

This is extremely humiliating for china . They wanted to appear strong against USA most and now US veterans are laughing at china. Lol

In my little circle here, people are seeing this as China's defeat.
US news reporting 35 PLA killed, India finishing the bridge, today-yesterday's reports on how IA was brutal, Global Times repeatedly saying India should not provocate China... all these are not going well for China.

And unfortunately, many in India are not even hopeful, what to speak of being convinced.

 

[IndianHawk]

I will believe that when I see an Indian city as good as a Chinese city.

Trust me, I have spent hours and hours in Chinese street view and the quality of their infrastructure is very good. There are regions which aren't as good but I come back to the same spot a month later and it's changed. Tibet, Xinjiang and central China are one of the worse off areas in comparison but that is by design as they weren't the focus since it has a small population. Although, even Kashgar in Xinjiang which is near Pakistan has rapidly developed and looks better than Delhi. Mind you, this is a city north of Kashmir, the terrain is tough.

I don't deal in anecdotes . Only in data when it comes to economics. Delhi being chaotic is not because of economics. On infrastructure development data is now clear we are developing as fast as china if not more.

 

[Niks_12]

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/...-give-army-commanders-full-freedom-to-respond

Explained: India's New LAC Engagement Rules Which Give Army Commanders Full Freedom To Counter China

India has changed rules of engagement at LAC after the Galwan Valley clash and given Army commanders full freedom to put in use any instrument under his command for tactical operations as deemed fit in the situation, reports The Print.

India has informed China about the changed rules both at military and diplomatic levels.

“The rules of engagement have changed. The Army commander on the ground will decide on the tactics to be used to counter any kind of aggression. There is nothing now that binds the commander from taking certain kinds of tactical decisions,” The Print quoted a source as saying.

“The Chinese have been told both at diplomatic and military levels that rules of engagement have changed. India will counter forcefully any kind of misstep or violence by China,” said another source.

Use of firearms

Both the 1996 and 2005 agreements between India and China ban the use of firearms in face-offs at the border.

Article 6 of the 1996 agreement says that “neither side shall open fire or conduct blast operations within 2 km of the Line of Actual Control”. Therefore, the practice on ground was that not all carried loaded firearms while on patrol.

This doesn’t mean that the soldiers remain unarmed. All troops on border duty always carry arms, especially when leaving post, informed external affairs minister S Jaishankar.

The soldiers involved in the 15 June clash with Chinese troops were also carrying firearms. They did not open fire as they were following border agreements between the two countries, the government said on Thursday.

The Galwan valley clash on Monday (15 June) evening was carried out without firearms, and involved rods and wooden spikes with nails on them, stonepelting and physical clashes.

Reportedly, after the 5 May clash at the Pangong Tso lake, the soldiers posted there were supplied with light anti-riot gear, including body armours, shields and fibre lathis.

Under the new Rules of Engagement, the restrictions on the use of firearms won’t apply on the commanders who will have full authority to respond to “extraordinary situations” using all resources at their disposal.

“With the changes in the ROE, there’s nothing that limits the ability of Indian commanders to take whatever action they deem necessary on the LAC. ROE have been amended to address the brutal tactics being employed by Chinese troops,” HT quoted an official as saying.

 

[Bhadra]

Don't take my questions otherwise, I just want to know your response to my understanding of the situation.


Are you saying because IA patrolled upto PP19, you could afford a standoff at LAC ( with a hot LoC, disturbed valley and ruined economy). Please read 'afford' as both militarily and financially. And would have managed the situation if things went worse ( limited or full scale war)? With your own admission of Armoured corps situation. What about your sister services? Their ability to respond during the lost decade?

Was two front war any less probable today, than it was then?

The only time that I can think of historically is op Brasstacks followed by op Falcon and Chequered board, which had led to standoff.

Now if historical situation has to be analyzed why not start with 'at home' function on Navy Day 1986 wrt Gen. Sundarji and PM Rajiv Gandhi? Please include N.D Tiwari? visit to Beijing enroute to Pongyang. Because that became the basis for 1993 aggrement.

PM and CoAS relationship
probably plummeted further with PM Rajiv and Gen. Sundarji, than under PM Indira Gandhi and Gen. Rao.

Thus militarily, you may say you have had the appetite, I don't think other arms (Finance and MEA) of the Government concurred.

Thus IA's appetite was more than the govt. of the day. Rather bringing synergy in the approach, the divide grew. And can I give Gen Sundarji a clean chit here?

At present I see writers mentioning, ITBP cannot handle tripwire situation. They forget that ITBP was placed to avoid the incident going tripwire.
The same kind of writing you can find from Gen. Choudhury just before BSF came into being. He himself had concurred to place BSF under IPS DG.

The creation of CSG is again an analogous story isn't it?

So, my assertion is superficially recommending to bring ITBP under operational control of Army, glossing over practical difficulties is not going to lead anywhere. This move has both practical and historical baggage.

On the above I have found publication from quite a few veterans, presenting the need for placing the border guards under operational control of Army. But none have pointed out what are the objections from MHA and how to address them. Just pointing to IAS and IPS 'lobby' in words and 'syndicate' in meaning, is not only amaturish but defeative because as far as I can see, they are here to stay.

I must conclude now, as I have already been branded as promotee ITBP cadre officer for taking their side.
Just can't keep on working for ITBP pro bono.

These organisational tidbits are of no significance though there are lots of incongruities in that narration. Organisations fall in place if direction and leadership is in order and aim is clear.

The questions pertain to the boundaries of India and our fundamental approach to our neighbors in settling our boundaries. Settling boundaries should have been the first priority after independence because boundaries are symbols and substance of external sovereignty of a nation and one can not be a sovereign nation without a boundary. What is happening on LAC even today is a solid proof of that.

Our basic problem even today continues to remain the same that Sardar Patel had highlighted in his letter to the Nehru. However, It is the same old Nehruvian approach to our Northern boundary which remains predominant even today. It is our perverse and unnatural as also unrealistic ideological love for the great Communist Nations to the North that is an ideal of human achievements, social upliftment and great economy, standing in challenge to the Imperialist and Colonial West couple with subsequent mortal fear of China and our lack of conviction wrt to our boundaries that makes us bend backwards in all our dealings with China. The focus of foreign policy since independence is not to displease China at any cost - accept their panchsheel, take them to UN then gift them seat at UNSC. accept their annexation of Tibet, then Aksaichin, then their attempt of domination of NAM while quietly seeking political support from all hues of Communists at home. The MEA looked like an extension of CCP and continues to be so.

The thinking that the Army should be kept away from the Northern borders to avoid any confrontation with Chin and keep them happy dates back to Nehru being Indian super foreign Minister and PM or why would he meddle with Army and conduct his border policy through director IB. Mr Malik which resulted in national humiliation.

Our ruling party's love for China continues to to remain unabated even after the humiliation of 1962. Or why did not Indian Forces not allowed to follow the Chinese withdrawal and establish their control over areas they considered and claimed as Indian territories. Why did it take 26 odd years for the Indian Army to reach where it is today? Who stopped them and why??

If China was in adverse possession of Indian territories as a result of Military Aggression as Nehru called it. they should have been constantly nailed on it by deployment of military on the border to keep reminding the PLA which was astride the border. If we were the victims we should have cried more and more rather than remaining cosy boys not even picking up courage to deploy our army.

Why such magnanimity towards China when we were forceful with Pakistan, Sikkim, Srilanka and Myanmar. You mean we did not require peace there. This hallablue of two front is a recent phenomenon but that is no factor in our approaches to the borders. We entered six border agreements with China to give them peace and violence free border? When the border is the result of their military aggression? Who's side are we?

Now the question of creation of BSF. ITBP or Assam rifles and deployment falls into that framework - to keep Army away from the border unless they upset the apple cart. And please do not weave any other fanciful theory into it except that the IPS took a full advantage of it and build an empire on that for themselves. The single party regime also wanted it to be pliable. Is it our borders that need guarding of one family;s interests.

The moot point is - can we continue with that or at least now, look at national interest rather than be subservient to established institutional malice of MEA having undue influence on domestic politics and needs of continuance of one Party rule in the country.

When it come to nation ITBP or Army do not matter. What matters is efficiency and effectiveness where ITBP has lost out.

 

[Suryavanshi]

As the next phase of Infra push we should complete laying asphalt on DBO and create permanent infra to house a whole battalion worth of strength with solar panels, food and Weapons storage.

They are trying to stretch our resources and we are getting stretched.
The age old tradition of our forces being reactive persists today.
Let's change our ways and start stretching them.

Make another link road with DBO. The chini want to cut of our connection to DBO so we will use the second link road in case it gets captured.