India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[WARREN SS]

They can keep busting tanks after tanks so as long we can supply them with more missiles.
They are the most capable fighting helos in the world afterall.

This M1A1 Abrams main battle tank destroyed by friendly fire in 1991 Gulf War. One Abrams is thought to have been accidentally set on fire by a Hellfire missile fired from an Apache helicopter.

LOL Just look at what Hellfire Did to M1A1 Just Imagine What they Will do to Chinese Junks

 

[BangaliBabu]

Well said. There is a tripping point at which India would consider use of nuclear weapons, probably tactical at the beginning and going up the ladder to strategic (> 200 kt yield).
But it is a dicey option with unpredictable outcomes. Depends on level of Chinese intentions and force projection. The Pakistanis with a much inferior nuclear capability vis-a-vis us have successfully used nuclear blackmail to stall an attack by our vastly superior conventional forces. So theoretically possible. The Chinese should be made to believe that the costs of grabbing our land will be too great to justify. The Chinese bosses know fully well that a nuclear exchange with India will set them back by decades and the only winner will be the US. We will also suffer.

The NATO strategy of using tactical nukes to blunt any Soviet conventional offensive is an example. A lot of planning and thinking would have to be done to follow a similar strategy. The production of reliable tactical nukes is a basic necessity. We have sufficient short range delivery systems.

An outlandish idea. Why don't we test a couple of true thermonuclear bombs in our Pokhran ranges. It should be a minimum of 1 megaton strength. The world including the Chinese doubt our capability to develop missile ready(low weight, high yield) hydrogen bombs. They claim that the last series of tests saw our 60 kt hydrogen bomb failing. Many believe that we have only workable fission and boosted fission bombs.

It is time to end all ambiguity about our nuclear capability. The local population in the surrounding villages in Pokhran should be evacuated and a 1 megaton hydrogen bomb should be tested. No 50 or 60 or 200 kiloton thermonuclear bomb.
The major nuclear powers all carried out megaton strength nuclear tests. If we are to be taken seriously a 1 megaton test is the minimum.

Let Pakistan go to hell. If those India obsessed pigs decide to imitate us, so be it. Pakistan cannot be allowed to dictate our strategic choices. Anyway their Chinese owners can provide them a design of a megaton bomb anytime. So no sense in worrying about a Pig megaton bomb.

A megaton test will send a strong message to the Chinese.

they'll still eat half-cooked bats and run into our soldiers' faces like hoes in a red-light district. I opine they won't settle the land disputes with us for nothing less than a completely free bat-meal or dog-meal sponsored by our China-loving media.

 

[Mikesingh]

Don't ever trust anything coming from CNN even in CNN ibn.

India Today too, which over exaggerates for sensationalism. And TRPs too. They have some clueless con artists who masquerade as 'defence analysts' who think they are cat's whiskers and dish out nonsense without any verification, confirmation or corroboration whatsoever. (You know who I'm pointing at! )

 

[another_armchair]

The Army has ordered 6 Apache's costing Rs. 6,600 crores.

OTOH, they are getting 72,000 Sig 716 and 21 lakh rounds for Rs 700 crores.

Priorities, anyone?

Then they gripe about the INSAS and Babu's in all their wisdom want to force the AK at inflated prices to please Putin.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place and acting pricey.

With Rs. 6,600 crores, they could have bought enough Sig 716 and Negev's to equip .. well never mind.
Funny, Babu's acquiesce to Apaches but refuse sophisticated small arms that give a clear advantage to our front line troops. Sounds like a very weak argument.

Hopefully, with a CDS in place, this bitter rivalry that results in forces acquiring the same weapon at different price points and in piece meal orders can be limited.

 

[IndianHawk]

The Army has ordered 6 Apache's costing Rs. 6,600 crores.

OTOH, they are getting 72,000 Sig 716 and 21 lakh rounds for Rs 700 crores.

Priorities, anyone?

Then they gripe about the INSAS and Babu's in all their wisdom want to force the AK at inflated prices to please Putin.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place and acting pricey.

With Rs. 6,600 crores, they could have bought enough Sig 716 and Negev's to equip .. well never mind.
Funny, Babu's acquiesce to Apaches but refuse sophisticated small arms that give a clear advantage to our front line troops. Sounds like a very weak argument.

Hopefully, with a CDS in place, this bitter rivalry that results in forces acquiring the same weapon at different price points and in piece meal orders can be limited.

That deal is not signed yet and that money is exaggerated estimation from USA including a whole lot of optional add ons counted in cost.

The real data is iaf got 22 Apache for 1.1 billion usd (7000cr.). That's a signed delivered deal.

 

[another_armchair]

In June 12, the U.S. State department approved the sale of six additional Apaches for the Indian Army. The Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) had then stated in a notification to the U.S. Congress that the deal would be worth $930 million.

Army to sign deal for six Apache attack helicopters

The deal was signed in Feb 2020 during Trump's visit.

India, US sign contract for additional Apache attack choppers

 

[IndianHawk]

Army to sign deal for six Apache attack helicopters

There are other sources too.

India, US sign contract for additional Apache attack choppers

Read again it's a notification to us Congress so it includes maximum add-ons and include all of them in cost estimate so it doesn't have to seem us Congress permission again if India demand any add-on .

It's not actual deal. Actual deal will be based on what India actually buys out of the whole available package. And then actual cost will be signed.

If 6 Apache cost 900 million how do you think iaf got 22 for just 1.1 billion ??

 

[another_armchair]

Read again it's a notification to us Congress so it includes maximum add-ons and include all of them in cost estimate so it doesn't have to seem us Congress permission again if India demand any add-on .

It's not actual deal. Actual deal will be based on what India actually buys out of the whole available package. And then actual cost will be signed.

If 6 Apache cost 900 million how do you think iaf got 22 for just 1.1 billion ??

https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...l-for-indian-army-cleared-by-indian-govt.html

6 Apache Helicopter Deal For Indian Army Cleared By Indian Govt
Shiv Aroor Feb 20 2020 6 40 pm

• 

The Indian Government yesterday cleared a $930 million deal for 6 Boeing AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Indian Army. The deal is likely to be announced by President Donald Trump when he arrives in India next week, with contract signature in March. The six Apaches will be purchased under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program of the U.S. Government, and are part of options on India’s earlier deal for 22 Apaches for the Indian Air Force, most of which have already been delivered.
The 6 Apaches for the Indian Army will be identical to the aircraft being supplied to the IAF. Livefist understands that three of the six will be Apache Longbows, the same ratio as the IAF’s fleet stationed in Pathankot as part of the Gladiators squadron. The original 2015 deal for 22 helicopters, valued at $1.4 billion including support equipment and infrastructure, was executed under the Direct Commercial Sales program, with elements of FMS for elements in the weapons package. A similar model is being followed for the next 6.

The six follow-on Apaches account for a partial exercising of options (11 airframes). As Livefist has detailed before, the Indian military is looking at adding more Apaches in the years ahead, with one estimate putting it at 61 airframes — 33 with the IAF and 28 with the Indian Army. Incidentally, the Indian Army and IAF are yet to fully resolve an acrimonious turf war over who controls attack helicopters. The 6 Apaches for the Indian Army will be the first attack helicopters in Indian Army colours since the turf war was tentatively ‘won’ a few years ago.

Apache fuselages built by a Tata-Boeing JV in Hyderabad
Boeing outsources the manufacture of its Apache fuselages to its Indian joint venture with the Tata Group, Tata Boeing Aerospace Ltd (TBAL), which rolled out the first fuselages in 2018. Every one of the six for the Army will be constructed around Hyderabad-built fuselages.
As of January, Boeing has delivered 17 of 22 Apaches to the Indian Air Force, with deliveries set to be completed in March this year.

UPDATE on Feb 25 / 4.30pm
As reported by Livefist, India and the United States today signed into contract this deal for 6 AH-64E Apache helicopters.
Boeing India President Salil Gupte said in a statement, “We welcome India’s decision to acquire six AH-64 Apache helicopters and lifecycle services support for the Indian Army. The AH-64E Apache will be a force multiplier for the Indian Army, just as it is today for the Indian Air Force. We congratulate the U.S. and Indian governments on this key milestone and welcome the positive momentum in the bilateral defense trade and industrial partnership. Through our local entity, Boeing Defence India, we are supporting the P-8I, C-17, CH-47 Chinook, and AH-64 Apache with holistic lifecycle support to assist with India’s defense modernization effort and mission-readiness at competitive costs. This new contract is a testimony to the trust and long standing partnership Boeing has nurtured over the years with our Indian customers and we are committed to delivering on our commitments in the future as well.”
Speaking at a CEOs roundtable at the US Embassy in Delhi, US President Donald Trump confirmed the developments, saying, “These deals will enhance our joint defence capabilities as our militaries continue to train and operate side-by-side.”
Deliveries of the Apaches to the Indian Army will commence in 2023. The FMS contract for the Apache includes munitions, training, aircraft certification, and components including engines, EO sensors and the radar. The direct commercial sale portion of the contract primarily consists of the aircraft (except the engines/sensors), logistic support, spares and services.

Obvious, can't provide bank transfer screen shots of payment made for the above purchase.

The 22 Apaches with add ons and weapons cost us close to $2 billion.

 

[IndianHawk]

https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...l-for-indian-army-cleared-by-indian-govt.html



Obvious, can't provide bank transfer screen shots of payment made for the above purchase.

The 22 Apaches with add ons and weapons cost us close to $2 billion.

No they did not. 1.1 billion for 22 Apache and 1 billion were for Chinook.

2.2 billion was total cost of Apache and Chinook including everything.

Again deal cleared is not deal signed. Let the deal be actually signed with exact cost given and we shall have transparent figure to see the actual paid costs.

 

[IndianHawk]

https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...l-for-indian-army-cleared-by-indian-govt.html



Obvious, can't provide bank transfer screen shots of payment made for the above purchase.

The 22 Apaches with add ons and weapons cost us close to $2 billion.

Your own link says 22 Apache cost 1.4 billion including infrastructure and spares. Please read it carefully.

 

[Kumata]

India Today too, which over exaggerates for sensationalism. And TRPs too. They have some clueless con artists who masquerade as 'defence analysts' who think they are God's own ass and dish out nonsense without any verification, confirmation or corroboration whatsoever. (You know who I'm pointing at! )

Say it with pride that your mean certain karoor... LOL

 

[ezsasa]

This LAC incident is a good opportunity to push for LCH deal to be pushed forward. atleast 2-3 squadrons to being with, if not the entire deal.

 

[IndianHawk]

U.S. to Expel Chinese Graduate Students With Ties to China’s Military Schools (Published 2020)

The move is the latest in the Trump administration’s efforts to impose limits on Chinese students. But university officials say the government is paranoid, and that the United States will lose out.

www.nytimes.com

Meanwhile USA is going to expell Chinese graduates with. Military ties. It's getting cold and cold .
Cold war is here boys

 

[IndianHawk]

This LAC incident is a good opportunity to push for LCH deal to be pushed forward. atleast 2-3 squadrons to being with, if not the entire deal.

Army also have lots of rudras but idk if they are armed with atgm right now?

 

[Suryavanshi]

We Can Deploy Apache Ah-64 E there + hellfire

Elevation of Leh is 3,500 m (11,500 ft)

Thats why we have LCH which is tailor made for Leh and Ladakh regions, cheap and very maneuverable in the mountains.

We aren't bad at planning stuff, each of our wepaon procurement and future plans are made keeping our terrains and war theatre in mind. Where we lack is the execution part, all thanks to the administration structure that the British left us we did nothing to fix.

Tho a huge role is also played by politicans in ruining it.

During the Vajpayee era many things picked up pace.
Nuclear tests.
Tejas funding started.
Most border road projects and strategic bridge and connectivity was started by Vajpayee.
Change in Foreign Policy.

Even Nehru after getting beaten up in 1962 green flagged some Defence Project.
Carried over by Shastri Ji who would have left a mark in defence forever but was assassinated by KGB to install Indra Gandhi.
Indra Gandhi did do a lot for defence but had made us a Soviet socialist puppet.

Then came Narshima Rao many dont know but u must research more to see his contributions to defence.

Then came UPA 2 under Antonio Manio which ruined it all.
The 10 years of UPA 2 were the most detrimental to defence, only god knows how we are still standing.

If UPA2 had kept up with the legacy left behind by vajpayee we would have.

83 tejas mK1 by now and we woudl be waiting for MWF FOC.

MMRCA planes with Rafales at cheaper cost.

110 LCH to direct agaisnt Chin and HCH first prototype already flying.

Lots and lots more things could have been better but there is no point going all over those things.


Hume to Apno ne loota, gairo me Kaha dum tha.

 

[Gandaberunda]

This LAC incident is a good opportunity to push for LCH deal to be pushed forward. atleast 2-3 squadrons to being with, if not the entire deal.

While MoD is hell bent to shove Tejas (under development fighter) down IAF ass but relectant to place orders for developed LCH. These babus are strange

 

[ezsasa]

Posting it here for future reference.

 

[Bhadra]

Well said. There is a tripping point at which India would consider use of nuclear weapons, probably tactical at the beginning and going up the ladder to strategic (> 200 kt yield).
But it is a dicey option with unpredictable outcomes. Depends on level of Chinese intentions and force projection. The Pakistanis with a much inferior nuclear capability vis-a-vis us have successfully used nuclear blackmail to stall an attack by our vastly superior conventional forces. So theoretically possible. The Chinese should be made to believe that the costs of grabbing our land will be too great to justify. The Chinese bosses know fully well that a nuclear exchange with India will set them back by decades and the only winner will be the US. We will also suffer.

The NATO strategy of using tactical nukes to blunt any Soviet conventional offensive is an example. A lot of planning and thinking would have to be done to follow a similar strategy. The production of reliable tactical nukes is a basic necessity. We have sufficient short range delivery systems.

An outlandish idea. Why don't we test a couple of true thermonuclear bombs in our Pokhran ranges. It should be a minimum of 1 megaton strength. The world including the Chinese doubt our capability to develop missile ready(low weight, high yield) hydrogen bombs. They claim that the last series of tests saw our 60 kt hydrogen bomb failing. Many believe that we have only workable fission and boosted fission bombs.

It is time to end all ambiguity about our nuclear capability. The local population in the surrounding villages in Pokhran should be evacuated and a 1 megaton hydrogen bomb should be tested. No 50 or 60 or 200 kiloton thermonuclear bomb.
The major nuclear powers all carried out megaton strength nuclear tests. If we are to be taken seriously a 1 megaton test is the minimum.

Let Pakistan go to hell. If those India obsessed pigs decide to imitate us, so be it. Pakistan cannot be allowed to dictate our strategic choices. Anyway their Chinese owners can provide them a design of a megaton bomb anytime. So no sense in worrying about a Pig megaton bomb.

A megaton test will send a strong message to the Chinese.

In the context of India and China. when one talks of using Nuclear weapons, it is only the population centers around East or South China which is the nerve center of Chinese economy and population. Use of Tactical nuclear by India side is almost no go though China can use tactical nuclear weapons to blunt Indian offensive.
How can we radioactive pollute Satluj, Indus, Ganga , yamuna, Mahakali. Tista or Brahmaputra or Siang catchment or surrounding areas. These all flow from Tibet and Himalayas - the expected battle zones.

Nothing less than hurting mainland China is going work in terms of Nuclear exchanges.... It hardly matters to the Chinese is Tibet is depopulated and polluted.

Hence, our Nuclear submarine force and ICBM development matters the most.

 

[IndianHawk]

Posting it here for future reference.
View attachment 48806

It will go back to same in coming decades. Perhaps barring Manchuria.

No way tibet and xinjiang to remain in Chinese control forever.

 

[Lancer]

This LAC incident is a good opportunity to push for LCH deal to be pushed forward. atleast 2-3 squadrons to being with, if not the entire deal.

India should really be ordering LCH's & Rudra's in droves. There's a huge need for armed helos & CAS assets in general, and Apaches aren't going to fulfill that need in terms of sheer numbers.

Also, the ALH (Dhruv) and LUH could be used for a lot of other tenders/needs across the three services too. Large orders need to be placed for indigenous helicopters - that's one area that can be a massive Aatmanirbhar success story (along with artillery guns).