India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[HariPrasad-1]

15000 Troops means one division...
One additional Division in Ladakh means loss or weakening one of the many options available to Indian Army to manage a Two Front war..
That weakens overall posturing by the Indian Army. lessons reserves and disturbs strategic balance...

Such emergency measures also diminish IA ability to make any one front as main front and the other as the subsidiary front. Even when China is threatening one front, say Ladakh and LAC, if IA has capabilities to retain balance and reserves, the Indian Army can still make POK and GB as the main front and defeat Chinese overall design by strategic maneuvering ..

Numbers advantage is with PLA and Indian numbers are with CAPF not with the Indian Army. It is unfortunate that CAPF numbers have no military utility.

Even at the cost of sounding very cynical and obsessed, regular members know it that I have been highlighting this issue for last three months when PLA was not even in posturing in Ladakh.

However, the strategic community of India constitutes of bureaucracies of all hues themselves. Bureaucracies - even Army Bureacrcy - all are incapable of unbiased opinion and judgment. Independent Institutions and think-tanks are a few, punny and irrelevant- not capable of adequate influence on policymaking and influencing decision making. Be it Vivekanand Foundations. ORF or CSG. IDSA or even a university like JNU - all are only Johny's Head in Air.

If India were to have adequate military reserves in the form of 315 Border guarding battalions under MHA, Global Times would not be openly threatening India of the two-front war today. I think the for Defence Forces (all =Army, IAF and IN) two front war suffers from a serious lack of numbers.

In my opinion, cold start doctrine we are practicing for a long time will come handy. Though it is not conceived and practiced for this terrain, the techniques practised in swift deployment, air lifting vital instruments, swift movements of battle groups with all necessary equipment will come handy.

 

[garg_bharat]

Take out Chinese satellites (soft kill with laser or electronic counter measure, or hard kill with missile), and Chinese ballistic and cruise missiles lose accuracy and become worthless.

A lot is possible but what happens is hard to guess. It depends on what kind (and quantity) weapons are available. I think killing satellites at this stage is a bit far fetched.

 

[ThE BrOkEn HeArT]

Global times is never our official newspaper, Mr Hu is also quite controversial people.
He said there were casualties, but no other valuable info after that.



The news llike this are quite chaotic, they are citing each other and confirm each other... I don't know how those "US intelligence" can really prove it.

I was watching the casualties report from beginning here. When there are 3 Indian killed reported, people believe there were 5 PLA killed. When there are 20 Indian killed, people believe the are 34 PLA killed no one beliee the 5 thing. This is quite interesting mindset, people like to believe what they like to believe.

Even your father tells you that Chinese are being killed, next day you will say he is not my father. Everyone knows Global times is a state Chinese media, they print whatever they gets from CCP.
This was a big clash between soldiers, you are fool to believe that one side lost 20 and other side 0, not even injured. Lol
Many Chinese jourlists also confirmed that there are many Chinese casualties but can't reveal.
Now look.. China is begging for talk .
India is a democracy and we respect our fallens. Thats why we disclose everything. We don't hide. But you think hiding your casualties can make you win a war. Our soldiers morale is very high. They knows they killed Chinese more than double . But your little girls ate hiding now, begging talk.
Global times printing 15 artiles in a day for begging talk and urging India "please don't attack ".

 

[tarunraju]

Recently I was surfing through one one the popular meme websites 9gag, and to my pleasant surprise, people are overwhelmingly supporting India ! Mind it, this site is frequented but mostly Europeans and Americans, and it has a very small number of Indian viewers.

Oh man! this is gold. Perfectly explains the situation.

 

[IndiaRising]

Why are people wasting time with chinese trolls? They are the same people who will be sent to the gulags if they disobey emperor Winnie the Pooh’s diktats.

 

[Bhadra]

Cold Start Doctrine And China
​

We have been talking of India's Cold Start Doctrine for a long time. The doctrine has further graduated into the employment of IBG.

IBGs for our Northern border that is LAC has been talked about and might also have been practiced for Sikkim Sector and also Arunachal Pradesh Sectors. Three Corps having three divisions each would be quite capable of launching / employing three IBGs.

However nothing much has been heard of IBG for Ladakh. 14 Corps has inadequate reserves. The northern command has vast area and responsibility and also do not have adequate reserves.

Has anyone heard or read anything on any IBG for Ladakh? Or has the LAC complacency victimized Northern Command and 14 Corps itself?

 

[garg_bharat]

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Freezer Dam]

"More than 200 large forces with shields and sticks beat up more than 100 Indian soldiers who were still doing damage at the construction site."

That means when a CO was beaten,the other soldiers were standings and being beaten up by other chinese soldiers and did not react....No chini soldiers even injured...and you believe that story @rockdog.

"Some of the escaped Indian soldiers fell into the river or into the pit. In the evening, the soldiers who fled back to the Indian army dared not come to look for people.''

1CO and others 2 soldiers died,and nobody did not came back even after that up to evening..But what IA briefed that the encounter started in night.....No back up sent even after received massage from fled soldiers...@rockdog, pls post your logic here...I am very much curious

 

[mattster]

It looks like the 20 dead is not final number.....it is going up as they are lot more soldiers missing.

India has been trying to placate China and Russia by not getting too close to Nato countries and the US.
Its time to realize that nothing good will come from China. The weaker you are, the more China will bully you.
Its time for India to drop the non-aligned crap, and band together with other democractic nations in Asia and the rest of the world against these Chinese bastards.

China is trying to bully every democratic country in Asia from Japan to Taiwan to Hong Kong, Philippines to Malaysia to India to Vietnam to Australia. Its time for all these Asian nations to realize that they have to form a defensive alliance.

I hate to say this, but I am not sure that the US is a reliable ally anymore to anyone except the UK and Western Europe. People like Trump may talk tough.....but he is willing to sell anyone out for a good business deal.

But the worst thing about India is that hangs its Armed Forces out to dry, especially the Army and Air Force by taking decades to make weapons purchases, and leaves its soldiers and pilots with outdated crap equipment.

 

[fire starter]

It looks like the 20 dead is not final number.....it is going up as they are lot more soldiers missing.

India has been trying to placate China and Russia by not getting too close to Nato countries and the US.
Its time to realize that nothing good will come from China. The weaker you are, the more China will bully you.
Its time for India to drop the non-aligned crap, and band together with other democractic nations in Asia and the rest of the world against these Chinese bastards.

China is trying to bully every democratic country in Asia from Japan to Taiwan to Hong Kong, Philippines to Malaysia to India to Vietnam to Australia. Its time for all these Asian nations to realize that they have to form a defensive alliance.

I hate to say this, but I am not sure that the US is a reliable ally anymore to anyone except the UK and Western Europe. People like Trump may talk tough.....but he is willing to sell anyone out for a good business deal.

But the worst thing about India is that hangs its Armed Forces out to dry, especially the Army and Air Force by taking decades to make weapons purchases, and leaves its soldiers and pilots with outdated crap equipment.

I think that u r not following the news no one is missing and all the injured are stable.

 

[prasadr14]

It looks like the 20 dead is not final number.....it is going up as they are lot more soldiers missing.

So, no causalities by China,
Indians dozens dead and lot more missing..

Care to share how you arrived at this?

 

[Mikesingh]

India’s Lord Ram takes on China’s Dragon: How Hong Kong, Taiwan and Indian Twitter users came together in solidarity

As the news broke out about the violent clashes that took place between the Indian soldiers and Chinese troopers in Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh, an illustration of Lord Ram, one of the most important Gods in the Hindu pantheon, taking on the Chinese Dragon surfaced online.

Hong Kong Twitter user HoSaiLei shared it on Twitter and it instantly went viral as Indians and residents of Hong Kong joined hands to stand up to the Chinese expansionism. As of now, the post had garnered 780 retweets, 2,000 likes and 78 comments.

 

[Foxbat]

CNN prints one thing one day and exactly the opposite next the day:

Why conventional wisdom giving China the military edge over India may not be true

Conventional wisdom has it that China holds a significant military advantage over India, but recent studies from the Belfer Center at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government in Boston and the Center for a New American Security in Washington suggest India maintains an edge in high-altitude mountainous environments, such as the one where the 2020 face-off is taking place.

 

[ZeroGo]

"More than 200 large forces with shields and sticks beat up more than 100 Indian soldiers who were still doing damage at the construction site."

That means when a CO was beaten,the other soldiers were standings and being beaten up by other chinese soldiers and did not react....No chini soldiers even injured...and you believe that story @rockdog.

"Some of the escaped Indian soldiers fell into the river or into the pit. In the evening, the soldiers who fled back to the Indian army dared not come to look for people.''

1CO and others 2 soldiers died,and nobody did not came back even after that up to evening..But what IA briefed that the encounter started in night.....No back up sent even after received massage from fled soldiers...@rockdog, pls post your logic here...I am very much curious

Please stop engaging trolls. Most people here can see through their idiocy. You'll just waste your time and everyone else's here as they spam the thread and people needing to go through more of their useless replies.

 

[johnq]

A lot is possible but what happens is hard to guess. It depends on what kind (and quantity) weapons are available. I think killing satellites at this stage is a bit far fetched.

The Chinese have been electronically attacking (dazzling) American satellites for years, and they were not even at war.

 

[garg_bharat]

It looks like the 20 dead is not final number.....it is going up as they are lot more soldiers missing.

India has been trying to placate China and Russia by not getting too close to Nato countries and the US.
Its time to realize that nothing good will come from China. The weaker you are, the more China will bully you.
Its time for India to drop the non-aligned crap, and band together with other democractic nations in Asia and the rest of the world against these Chinese bastards.

China is trying to bully every democratic country in Asia from Japan to Taiwan to Hong Kong, Philippines to Malaysia to India to Vietnam to Australia. Its time for all these Asian nations to realize that they have to form a defensive alliance.

I hate to say this, but I am not sure that the US is a reliable ally anymore to anyone except the UK and Western Europe. People like Trump may talk tough.....but he is willing to sell anyone out for a good business deal.

But the worst thing about India is that hangs its Armed Forces out to dry, especially the Army and Air Force by taking decades to make weapons purchases, and leaves its soldiers and pilots with outdated crap equipment.

See we can trust losses from official sources alone. Indian army has made public the list. If you think that list is incorrect you can publish names of the rest.

Why are you engaging in conjectures?

Losses at this point in the conflict is completely meaningless.

The problem with the USA is that it was Pakistan's ally till a few years back which it gave 3 billion USD every year as military and development aid. India gets overpriced transport planes and helicopters.

Since India's military budget is limited, buying American weapons actually constrains the budget from accommodating needs which can add to firepower.

I am sure both military and civilians will look at how to solve procurement issues, which I think is possible only through bulk purchases from domestic private sector.

 

[Bhadra]

In my opinion, cold start doctrine we are practicing for a long time will come handy. Though it is not conceived and practiced for this terrain, the techniques practised in swift deployment, air lifting vital instruments, swift movements of battle groups with all necessary equipment will come handy.

OK ... but where is the acclimatized division...??
Where is the airstrip near that acclimatize division..??
If that division is airlifted to Leh and launched then it is not cold start though it might still be called IBG.

Remember, the Leh based 3 Div is an Infantry Division which has an Armoured brigade from Corps. It means an IBG should logically have an armoured or a Mech brigade as part of that IBG. If we use integral armoured brigade 14 Corps will become imbalanced. Then where is that ? From where to bring it ? How many days would it take for induction to Kyari and for acclimatization?

All are suffering from the complacency that Chinese have injected into Indian system in the form of LAC regime.. MEA always lead the establishment to believe that nothing ever can happen there.

 

[Mikesingh]

Source: Global Times
Published: 2020/6/17 0:57:25

(Now taken down and NA)

Chinese and Indian troops engaged in serious physical clashes all through the night of 15 June at Galwan valley. Indian side has accepted 20 of its soldiers were killed. A spokesperson for the Western Theatre Command that oversees defences of China's border with India has released the names of 30 Chinese troops killed by Indian action.

(They claim only 30 PLA killed. In bold are officers of the PLA)

The names of Chinese Soldiers martyred are:

Lin Jiahao, Major (Shao Xiao)
Meng Jiang, Captain (Shang Wei)
Cui Kang, Captain (Shang Wei)
Huang Mu, 1 Lt (Zhong Wei)
Peng Guiying, 1 Lt (Zhong Wei)
Song Zan, 1 Lt (Zhong Wei)
Liang Yan, 1 Lt (Zhong Wei)
Zhao Xia, Sgt Major (Yi ji jun shi zhang)
Zheng Wu,
Tao Yi,
Kong He,
Xie Yong,
Gu Kang,
Tan Feng,
Xu Chin,
Ren Ah,
Lu Yin,
Tian Zexi,
Du Min,
Zhong Guiying,
He Huang,
Gao Yang,
Ye Chen,
Zhu Yahui,
Xian Jingyi,
Shi Luoyang,
Wan Yazhu,
Zhang Li,
Yi Sun,
Mo Xuefeng

There may be many more who are injured and not incl in the list.

 

[Flint]

Question is that if the Indian soldiers ran away, why are the Chinese not in possession of the Galwan river valley. Did they amass multiple batallions there to just have a vacation?

 

[garg_bharat]

The Chinese have been electronically attacking (dazzling) American satellites for years, and they were not even at war.

I am not sure if India has the capability. Maybe USA has. India may have a few anti satellite missiles but using at this stage is illogical.