India China LAC & International Border Discussions

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
9,712
Likes
11,269
Country flag
Claude White’s Description
Claude White visited the area in 1902, he noted: “I proceeded first up the Naku Chu [river] to the Naku La [pass]. Near the top of the pass, on one I found the usual Tibetan wall, rather better built than is customary, running across the valley with a block-house on the east, and some smaller blockhouse on a ridge coming down from the east. The top of the pass is long, wet and swampy with several lakes. On the way up some very large mineral springs were met with, and sample bottles of each have been sent down to the Chemical Examiner for analysis. This water contains sulphuretted hydrogen, and apparently contains sulphur and iron in large quantities.”
The Chinese would like today to consider the wall as the border; it was built by the Tibetans to protect their pastures in the 19th century; a process often used in the Himalayan region. The wall was similar to a Mani wall (a stone wall with engraved mantras Om Mani Padme Hum); the wall was 5 feet in height and some 800 meters in length. Beijing seems to have decided that the wall was the customary border, neglecting the watershed principle to which they earlier adhered.
The problem for India is that the access to these places is extremely difficult; Muguthang for example is still not connected by road. For several years, the Chinese have tried to ‘realign’ the border; but their claims clearly violate the 1890 Treaty, based on the watershed principle, which they swear by.
If Beijing wanted to put pressure on India, the pass is a convenient acupuncture point and if India gives in, more puncture points will be activated in Ladakh, Barahoti (Uttarakhand), Asaphila (Arunachal Pradesh) and other remote places.
When in June 1902, White went to Northern Sikkim, he met some Tibetan representatives at a place called Gyagong and later at the Naku pass; according to the memoirs of Sir Francis Younghusband: “Mr. White told them that his orders were to lay down the boundary as shown in the Convention of 1890, which had been signed by the Chinese Amban on behalf of the Tibetans.”
The Tibetans did not accept a treaty concerning their country to which they were not a signatory; but Younghusband wrote: “White told them they could see for themselves if the water ran into the Sikkim Valley or into Tibet, and where the water parted into Sikkim and Tibet was the boundary.”
Since then, the top of Naku La (pass) has remained the border.
On July 5, 1905, White had suggested to the Secretary of the Foreign Department in Delhi to erect pillars to mark the border; inter alia, the PO observed: “The number of pillars required would be only ten — one on the Naku La, one on the Sebu La, and eight along the remaining northern boundary from near the Sebu La to Kangchung La,” he added: “There is no necessity for any pillars along the western portion, as it is an inaccessible ridge.”
Probably due to the difficult access, it was found unnecessary to erect a pillar at Naku La, but 23 cairns were built eastwards. The Chinese are today using this historical loophole to open a new front on the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Why Now?
One could ask, while the issue has been simmering for a few years, why such renewed aggressiveness now? Why is China opening new fronts?
One, in the post-COVID-19 (for China at least), IW is central to the role Beijing wants to play in the world.
As a result, the PLA is bound to be more aggressive on the Indian borders as they may not get their ‘dues’ with the general crunch for funds in Beijing, as a result, their budget will probably be heavily curtailed.
They have to be assertive to be not ‘forgotten’ by the Communist leadership.
Further, it is important to understand that while the terrain is extremely hostile on the Indian side, particularly in the western part of this sector, on the Tibetan side, Kampa Dzong (county) is on a flat plateau; it is where heavy Chinese PLA deployment is now taking place.
According to the website China Defense Blog, the Chinese-made ZTQ-15 light tank is used by the 54th Heavy Armor Combined-Arms Brigade in the Tibet Military Area Command. The new tank is said to have arrived in Kampa Dzong; this could be a game changer.
Another example of Beijing’s new assertiveness: ahead of a crucial Nepal Communist Party meeting, Hou Yanqi, the Chinese ambassador in Kathmandu, held a series of meetings with senior Nepal Communist Party leaders; she blatantly interfered in the ongoing power battle within the ruling party.
Coincidentally, Nepal objected to the new Indian road leading to Lipulekh, the border with China. Kathmandu said that the road is on Nepali territory, forgetting that when Nepal and China signed a border agreement in 1961, a map showing the Kali river, the border, at the same location than on the Indian maps, was published. It is unfortunate, but the NCP leaders are today dictated to by Beijing about what to do or say.
All this together, does not augur well for the coming summer months.
 

Floydian

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
45
Likes
56
Country flag
This doesn't look at all good 76 soldiers injured including a senior officer Brigadier ? :frusty: I think more than giving guns to Jawans , we need to quickly provide them riot gear so that they can save themselves from stone pelting , Baton studded with nails and all type of trashing . We won't fire a damn bullet for sure even if soldier gets killed by stone pelting

View attachment 48360
76 of our soldiers injured??
How the F did this go unnoticed by the media!! Hope our guys hurt the midgets in equal numbers!!
 

IndianHawk

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
4,777
Likes
12,011
Country flag
This doesn't look at all good 76 soldiers injured including a senior officer Brigadier ? :frusty: I think more than giving guns to Jawans , we need to quickly provide them riot gear so that they can save themselves from stone pelting , Baton studded with nails and all type of trashing . We won't fire a damn bullet for sure even if soldier gets killed by stone pelting

View attachment 48360
Our junior officer knocked out their major with one punch. Chinese were thrashed sideways till Sundays. That's why global times is barking incoherently. Lol
 

Shashank Nayak

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,369
Likes
3,566
Country flag
@Bhadra ..
What do you make of the below article about Chinese bunker between Finger 3 and Finger 4, to block our patrols upto finger 8. Also, another article said, the chinese tried to do the same 6 years ago, and then backed off.. and also that we have posts near finger 3, and patrol upto finger 8
 

ezsasa

Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
13,351
Likes
35,786
Country flag
Watching Wolf warrior too many times, has scrambled chinese brains..
Oh damn, i didn't know about wolf warrior. i just read the synopsis.
funny thing is CCP bought out entire hollywood so that they don't portray chinese as villians, Wolf warrior has ex- US Navy Seal as villian. the irony just shot itself in the foot...
 

AsuraKiller203

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2019
Messages
72
Likes
218
Country flag
China recently seems to want to pick a fight with all of its neighbors. Sinking Vietnamese n Philippine fishing boats, Stationing more assets against Taiwan, Flaring up skirmishes along Indian border, pushing Nepal to start issues with India, renegading on HongKongs autonomy etc

Viewing Chinese aggression thru various angles:
It could be that The CCP is scared of the coming external combined retribution from rest of the world that might weaken CCP domestically. Its trying to signal its enemies (US,India etc) not to push CCP too hard or a PLA military coup might take place and China under hardcore PLA extremists will be even more belligerent than china is today. And thus its not in interest of Chinas enemies. This is similar to paki army claiming not to sanction and weaken them too hard otherwise terrorists will take over paki nukes and outcome will be worse. Its basically the "alternative is worse" play. I dont think it will work bc world sees thru it.

It could be that CCP is feeling pressure internally from the PLA that its seen to be too soft and is allowing the military to do a few stunts to satisfy them. Like the pakis, CCP is big on H & D and has low tolerance for losing face (this is a weakness we could use.)

It could be that domestic unemployment and govts mishandling of coronavirus is increasing general populations anger towards CCP. And CCP is just trying to whip up nationalistic fervor to divert attention from its failures.

It could be that CCP genuinely believes its in a good position now to reap benefits from weakened neighbors. Thus testing waters by increasing military presence at the borders.

It could be that CCP senses a war is coming eventually anyway and is tying up all the lose domestic ends (hong kong) and preparing for a pre-emptive, action to benefit from a first strike now rather then wait for others to make the first move.

It could be a Xi Jinping vs CCP move. Recently there were reports that secretly CCP sent feelers out to the west asking "what if they replace xi jinping, will the west go back to normalcy visavis china?" Like Kim Jong Un, it could be Xi is testing loyalties of his comrades or trying to gauge possible foreign calculations. Xi Jinping could be trying to further secure his position among growing revolt within CCP.

Could be CCP returning to its own old tricks. Projecting itself much stronger than it actually is against its neighbors. Hoping that all the huffing and puffing makes them back down and not start a real war which would actually expose chinas military to be much weaker than projected. This has been chinas strategy against its neighbors till now. It somewhat worked against Philipines, Vietnam, pre-2014 India. Didnt work against India at Doklam in 2017.

Chinas CCPS biggest fear is an actual war. It knows its military cant fight (for various reasons) and fears it coming to light. They keep on salami-slicing to keep conflict below threshold of a hot war. It plans on winning concessions from its neighbors without firing a single shot by building huge quantity of shiny toys using its over-sized industrial capacity. They are playing from their strength, which is their huge economy & industrial capacity. They are avoiding their weakness, which is actual test of its forces in a long, dirty, drudgy, brutal combat with another professional force.

India should call Chinas bluff. On our Himalayan borders, we have them exactly where we want them to be. We have all the advantage in man, material, short logistical supply lines etc. We should now start salami-slicing against china and move eastward to regain our lost land and let them beg for de-escalation. Forces of Inertia and imprint of 62 defeat is clouding a lot of peoples minds in babudom and goverment. On the eastern front it makes all the sense for us to be the aggressors and let the chinks have a defensive posture. Capturing Lhasa is a lot easier than capturing Gilgil-Baltistan and there are a lot of levers we can use against china, which we havent used before. Tibet and its Indian border is Chinas soft belly. If exposed, its a free reign to conquer han mainland. We control more rungs of escalation ladder now, more than ever before. We have a lot to gain by being hard on China now.
 

scatterStorm

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
890
Likes
1,274
Country flag

Chinese choppers ingress 12-15 km inside India in Himachal Pradesh.

12 km is a lot of distance! Why they were not intercepted? 12km inside only means they were doing recee inside India !
Toh apan jatey na unkey 15Km under. Besides if the Illuyusin aircraft over sikkim thing, I think we have already done a couple of times.
 

AMCA

Senior Member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
1,187
Likes
4,380
Country flag
Starting 3rd week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers have intruded into five points in Ladakh. PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles & have even moved artillery guns to the rear to support the intrusion
:facepalm:
This is nothing but Kargil 2.0. Government should come out in open about the current situation at LAC. Playing down such incidents won't work and will further aggravate the situation.
 

scatterStorm

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
890
Likes
1,274
Country flag
An Infantry Mechanised thrust into Galwan Valley would directly lead to the interdiction of Chinse highway linking Tibet and Jinjiang. Indians seem to be serious about undoing 1962. Galwan valley can be approached from the Khardungla axis as also from Tangste Shyok Valley. One Mechanised brigade and one Infantry division would be the end of the Chinese highway...

In the event of India's forays into POK - GB, Chinese misadventures can be stemmed if these areas are firmly held y India. Looking London - seeing Tokiyo..:daru:


View attachment 48202
What about, the tactics used the the Chinese in Korean Gulf War?
There military's division hid behind mountains and would attack in the night. They will go back in daylight. Same can be done here by them.

I mean they aren't dumb, they expect us to use plateaus to counter them. Holding the ground at Plateaus that you pointed out is truely important.
 

fire starter

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
1,668
Likes
9,491
Country flag
Starting 3rd week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers have intruded into five points in Ladakh. PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles & have even moved artillery guns to the rear to support the intrusion
:facepalm:
This is nothing but Kargil 2.0. Government should come out in open about the current situation at LAC. Playing down such incidents won't work and will further aggravate the situation.
it's ajai shukla take it with a pinch of salt. Really 2 brigades of Chinese army in our soil and our satellite imagery specialists didn't spotted anything.
 

scatterStorm

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
890
Likes
1,274
Country flag
Interesting Investigation of the recent #IndoSino tensions in the #Galwan area via geospatial data helps identify ongoing earthwork developments & accelerated strategic changes at both ends by #India - #China #IMINT
Do we have members in DFI who are doing OSINT like this? Do we have a separate thread for each with a rule of replies. Like PLAN Carrier thread to track its location. NE and Aksai thread with each pleasteau having its own separate OSINT?
If so please post a link so I can save it in my watchlist.
 

scatterStorm

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
890
Likes
1,274
Country flag
Claude White’s Description
Claude White visited the area in 1902, he noted: “I proceeded first up the Naku Chu [river] to the Naku La [pass]. Near the top of the pass, on one I found the usual Tibetan wall, rather better built than is customary, running across the valley with a block-house on the east, and some smaller blockhouse on a ridge coming down from the east. The top of the pass is long, wet and swampy with several lakes. On the way up some very large mineral springs were met with, and sample bottles of each have been sent down to the Chemical Examiner for analysis. This water contains sulphuretted hydrogen, and apparently contains sulphur and iron in large quantities.”
The Chinese would like today to consider the wall as the border; it was built by the Tibetans to protect their pastures in the 19th century; a process often used in the Himalayan region. The wall was similar to a Mani wall (a stone wall with engraved mantras Om Mani Padme Hum); the wall was 5 feet in height and some 800 meters in length. Beijing seems to have decided that the wall was the customary border, neglecting the watershed principle to which they earlier adhered.
The problem for India is that the access to these places is extremely difficult; Muguthang for example is still not connected by road. For several years, the Chinese have tried to ‘realign’ the border; but their claims clearly violate the 1890 Treaty, based on the watershed principle, which they swear by.
If Beijing wanted to put pressure on India, the pass is a convenient acupuncture point and if India gives in, more puncture points will be activated in Ladakh, Barahoti (Uttarakhand), Asaphila (Arunachal Pradesh) and other remote places.
When in June 1902, White went to Northern Sikkim, he met some Tibetan representatives at a place called Gyagong and later at the Naku pass; according to the memoirs of Sir Francis Younghusband: “Mr. White told them that his orders were to lay down the boundary as shown in the Convention of 1890, which had been signed by the Chinese Amban on behalf of the Tibetans.”
The Tibetans did not accept a treaty concerning their country to which they were not a signatory; but Younghusband wrote: “White told them they could see for themselves if the water ran into the Sikkim Valley or into Tibet, and where the water parted into Sikkim and Tibet was the boundary.”
Since then, the top of Naku La (pass) has remained the border.
On July 5, 1905, White had suggested to the Secretary of the Foreign Department in Delhi to erect pillars to mark the border; inter alia, the PO observed: “The number of pillars required would be only ten — one on the Naku La, one on the Sebu La, and eight along the remaining northern boundary from near the Sebu La to Kangchung La,” he added: “There is no necessity for any pillars along the western portion, as it is an inaccessible ridge.”
Probably due to the difficult access, it was found unnecessary to erect a pillar at Naku La, but 23 cairns were built eastwards. The Chinese are today using this historical loophole to open a new front on the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Why Now?
One could ask, while the issue has been simmering for a few years, why such renewed aggressiveness now? Why is China opening new fronts?
One, in the post-COVID-19 (for China at least), IW is central to the role Beijing wants to play in the world.
As a result, the PLA is bound to be more aggressive on the Indian borders as they may not get their ‘dues’ with the general crunch for funds in Beijing, as a result, their budget will probably be heavily curtailed.
They have to be assertive to be not ‘forgotten’ by the Communist leadership.
Further, it is important to understand that while the terrain is extremely hostile on the Indian side, particularly in the western part of this sector, on the Tibetan side, Kampa Dzong (county) is on a flat plateau; it is where heavy Chinese PLA deployment is now taking place.
According to the website China Defense Blog, the Chinese-made ZTQ-15 light tank is used by the 54th Heavy Armor Combined-Arms Brigade in the Tibet Military Area Command. The new tank is said to have arrived in Kampa Dzong; this could be a game changer.
Another example of Beijing’s new assertiveness: ahead of a crucial Nepal Communist Party meeting, Hou Yanqi, the Chinese ambassador in Kathmandu, held a series of meetings with senior Nepal Communist Party leaders; she blatantly interfered in the ongoing power battle within the ruling party.
Coincidentally, Nepal objected to the new Indian road leading to Lipulekh, the border with China. Kathmandu said that the road is on Nepali territory, forgetting that when Nepal and China signed a border agreement in 1961, a map showing the Kali river, the border, at the same location than on the Indian maps, was published. It is unfortunate, but the NCP leaders are today dictated to by Beijing about what to do or say.
All this together, does not augur well for the coming summer months.
Does arming our mountain strike core with large quantity of ATGM helps? A guerrillas warfare against there tanks and IED deployment like Baloch's did and Turkey's assault on Pantsirs using UCAV can help there?
 

AMCA

Senior Member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
1,187
Likes
4,380
Country flag
In response to the construction which is likely designed to supply the final Indian Army encampment before the LAC, China has set up several positions of varying size, including one with half-a-dozen tents right on (potentially beyond) the LAC, 500m from the Indian position.

Other newly* set up positions along the Galwan river on the Chinese side of the LAC look like this, mostly durable tents, vehicles and some structures. There are not any heavy weaponry or vehicles out in the open*. Together there are about 80 tents set up.

The frontline Indian positions have also expanded significant in May, now containing roughly 60 tents, shared between the two positions closest to the LAC.
 

Knowitall

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
736
Likes
1,722
Country flag
it's ajai shukla take it with a pinch of salt. Really 2 brigades of Chinese army in our soil and our satellite imagery specialists didn't spotted anything.
Our satellite specialists might have seen everything it's mostly that the government hasn't fully told the public about the extent of the Chinese deployment yet.

I have read multiple reports and even a member here explaining that India is moving a lot of troops and artillery in front line areas we now have 3 regiments of t-72 tanks against china as far as I remember.

I think the government just hasn't revealed much as it doesn't want to hype the situation much.
 

fire starter

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
1,668
Likes
9,491
Country flag
Our satellite specialists might have seen everything it's mostly that the government hasn't fully told the public about the extent of the Chinese deployment yet.

I have read multiple reports and even a member here explaining that India is moving a lot of troops and artillery in front line areas we now have 3 regiments of t-72 tanks against china as far as I remember.

I think the government just hasn't revealed much as it doesn't want to hype the situation much.
read the above post where are 2 brigades and artillery guns in our soil as reported by ajai shukla.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top