India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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Kumata

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So Chinese claim India trespassed Chinese territory?
Interesting Indian army presence is substantial to do CKMKB
Could it be that chinese are trying to help their domestic dog in porkshit land... we all know that porki army / niazi are under pressure on all front....and last thing they want is us marching on them in POK without firing a single bullet....
 

Gandaberunda

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Could it be that chinese are trying to help their domestic dog in porkshit land... we all know that porki army / niazi are under pressure on all front....and last thing they want is us marching on them in POK without firing a single bullet....
Pakistan knows we ain't gonna come for PoK. We are increasing the cost for them killing their army trained jihadi terr0sist. Now Pak is desperate in need reinforcement of terr0sist ( local Kashmiri and Pak mujahids) trembling to sustain pressure induced. If we sustain this pressure and anti infiltration grid works out effectively along LoC then Pak will crack on their own forced to do some mis adventure...
 

Kumata

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Pakistan knows we ain't gonna come for PoK. We are increasing the cost for them killing their army trained jihadi terr0sist. Now Pak is desperate in need reinforcement of terr0sist ( local Kashmiri and Pak mujahids) trembling to sustain pressure induced. If we sustain this pressure and anti infiltration grid works out effectively along LoC then Pak will crack on their own forced to do some mis adventure...
Agree except for the bold part. The un-predictable ways of current dispensation are keeping them on their toe... in short...it's a like a toss .. what u dont know is what will happen on each side and coin is already in air....such is the predicament of proki generals...
 

Gandaberunda

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Agree except for the bold part. The un-predictable ways of current dispensation are keeping them on their toe... in short...it's a like a toss .. what u dont know is what will happen on each side and coin is already in air....such is the predicament of proki generals...
Keeping them on their toes doesn't mean we're going for PoK and Pak army knows this as they analyse study IA postures across LoC and no real damage done to Pak military installations across LoC till now. Only a full scale military conflict required to take back PoK like in 65.
 

cereal killer

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Keeping them on their toes doesn't mean we're going for PoK and Pak army knows this as they analyse study IA postures across LoC and no real damage done to Pak military installations across LoC till now. Only a full scale military conflict required to take back PoK like in 65.
Totally agree with you. PoK means a huge stretch of land that can't be brought back with a short war like we did in Kargil. It will require a big conflict. Right now it is like a never ending chess game between Ind & Pak who will strike first. The most ideal scenario in taking back PoK will be if Pakistan is the aggressor then we can finally escalate & end this s**t once & for all.
 

abhay rajput

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Totally agree with you. PoK means a huge stretch of land that can't be brought back with a short war like we did in Kargil. It will require a big conflict. Right now it is like a never ending chess game between Ind & Pak who will strike first. The most ideal scenario in taking back PoK will be if Pakistan is the aggressor then we can finally escalate & end this s**t once & for all.
It simply means we have to end Pakistan completely to take back pok. Which means wipe out there nuclear arsenal, Airforce and navy.
 

cereal killer

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It simply means we have to end Pakistan completely to take back pok. Which means wipe out there nuclear arsenal, Airforce and navy.
Well of course we can end Pakistan but it will be at a great cost. Pakistan will itself disintegrate in next 2-3 decades if we play our cards well. As far as taking back PoK is concerned our major push should be towards Gilgit Baltistan region which is more valuable than Kotli Muzzafarabad & public sentiment there is better than these regions. It will be tough job to secure these lands but if we have full US & Russia backing Pak will not be able to use nukes. CPEC is a hurdle but maybe if we strike a deal with China then who knows.
 
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Escalating things won't help , moreover the Himalayas are world's most difficult terrain , many pilots loose their navigation .
This is happening repeatedly. Chinese pilots may be bad but this bad??
 
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Well of course we can end Pakistan but it will be at a great cost. Pakistan will itself disintegrate in next 2-3 decades if we play our cards well.

we have to let this pipe dream go. Pakistan is never disintegrating. They were involved in
creating taliban ,9/11 , sheltered OSAMA BIN LADEN, profliferated nuclear technology. They did not
disintegrate they received billions in aid and weaponry. India had and still has many opportunities
to disintegrate Pakistan but it will not happen by someone else or on it's own.
 

abhay rajput

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Well of course we can end Pakistan but it will be at a great cost. Pakistan will itself disintegrate in next 2-3 decades if we play our cards well. As far as taking back PoK is concerned our major push should be towards Gilgit Baltistan region which is more valuable than Kotli Muzzafarabad & public sentiment there is better than these regions. It will be tough job to secure these lands but if we have full US & Russia backing Pak will not be able to use nukes. CPEC is a hurdle but maybe if we strike a deal with China then who knows.
Your assumption that Pakistan will break on its own is worng. Even in 1971 it requires our military intervention because military dictatorship can't fall on its own. And I am pretty sure Pakistan will use there nukes in that situation.
 

cereal killer

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Pakistan has been lucky there's no denying that. Afghanistan & Taliban has always been Pakistan's guardian angel & they got billions of dollars from US too. Moreover they still get aid from Arab countries. Nobody knows how things will shape up in future. Still I'd like to say taking back PoK can be a long waiting game. In my view India should import separatist leaders from Gilgit Baltistan & give them a seat in Indian Parliament & show the world that we mean business. It will also send a strong message to the west that there is also problem in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Take the spotlight away from our Kashmir & focus fully on GB.. Then in case Pakistan tries any misadventure we should grab as much as we can.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Be prepared for hot summers on the India-China border
By Lieutenant General SYED ATA HASNAIN (retd)
May 15, 2020
'The potential of one such LAC engagement going out of control and leading to heavy casualties cannot be ruled out,' warns Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain (retd).

More like this


Have we forgotten the lessons of Doklam?


IMAGE: Indian and Chinese soldiers in friendlier times at Nathu La in Sikkim.

Two clashes have occurred between Indian and Chinese soldiers in recent days, one each in North Sikkim and East Ladakh.

These are strange clashes by military standards as no firearms were used and there were no gunshot wounds or blast injuries. Yet five Indians and seven Chinese personnel have been injured and not in any superfluous way.

It had earlier happened 30 months ago in Eastern Ladakh when patrols from both the armies threw stones at each other in another strange military standoff.

It was laughed off then as something much more serious was developing in the Doklam area of East Sikkim involving fully armed troops of both countries in a standoff that lasted 72 days.

Such incidents and standoffs create a spectre of war mongering leading to speculation in the public.

There are complex factors at play in this long developing narrative between India and China which witnesses high notes of potential peace when political leaders meet at informal summits and war drums when the armies clash at the heights along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The public deserves a simplified explanation of why this happens.



IMAGE: Indian Army officers, right, arrive for a meeting with the Chinese counterparts at the LAC.
India and China have serious differences in the perception of the alignment of their border.

While treaties with intent to achieve peace and tranquility have been signed and continue to be in place, the very first step of attempting to mutually delineate an LAC has remained elusive.

The LAC remains an illusion with both sides having their own perception of it except in Sikkim where the border (not LAC) has been largely accepted with some niggles at a few places.

The areas where disputes exist include Ladakh, Uttarakhand/Himachal-Tibet border and Arunachal Pradesh.

An agreed LAC would obviously help in maintaining the peace between the forces on either side even as the long process of engagement through meetings and consultation continues.

Besides the border war of 1962, India and China clashed in 1967 at Nathu La in East Sikkim leading to considerable loss of life on both sides; the Chinese PLA reportedly suffered far higher casualties.

In 1984-1986 India postured to reinforce its capability to hold Tawang (Arunachal Pradesh) in event of a war with China. The latter responded in early 1987 at Sumdorong Chu while also strengthening its deployment along the LAC in the sector. There was no clash although it seemed almost imminent.

A period of reasonable diplomacy followed with a general absence of aggression at the LAC till about 2005. The intervening period witnessed India's increasing wariness about the potential Chinese attitude in the future, leading then defence minister George Fernandes terming China as India's 'number one threat'.

The setting up of a China Study Group and allocation of resources for the construction of 3,346 km of roads in the border zone remained India's response towards better preparedness at the northern borders.

From 2005 onwards progressive increase in patrol clashes at the LAC has taken place. Each year in the summer months as both sides patrol to their claim lines they are invariably contested by the other due to varying perceptions of the LAC.

Yet China refuses to discuss the delineation of the LAC something that can prevent such clashes and assist in taking forward the political and diplomatic dialogue for eventual resolution. There are reasons for this.



IMAGE: Indian and Chinese border troops conducted the first 'joint tactical exercise' in the Chushul-Moldo area of Ladakh, February 2016. Photograph: PTI
So why is China hell bent at instigating repeated clashes of the kind witnessed in the last two weeks and what does this attitude reflect strategically?

To fully comprehend this, aspects linked to geo-strategy and not too distant a history need to be analysed and understood.

First is the geo-strategic issue.

China remains wary of India's potential as a competitor for power in Asia and the world. It is particularly concerned most about India's geostrategic advantage of sitting atop all major East-West sea lines of communication (SLOCs) through the Indian Ocean.

From the Suez and Persian Gulf to the Straits of Malacca is an expanse of blue waters whose domination in naval terms is most easily affordable from ports and harbours along the Indian coastline or from similar facilities in nations in India's neighborhood; Seychelles, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Myanmar.

Chinese energy laden sea traffic from the Persian Gulf region to the Straits of Malacca and then to the East China coast per force has to travel the SLOCs through the Indian Ocean.

It is a discomforting thought for the Chinese considering that its fascinating growth (at one time overheated to 14 percent) is contingent upon the secure movement of not only its energy traffic but also the container based shipping that carries manufactured goods to Europe, Middle East and Africa.

Link the above with the history of China's comprehensive development.

Deng Xiaoping's only apparent error in the formulation of his strategy of 'four modernisations' was in placing the development of the PLA Navy (PLAN) at the lowest rung of priority.

Had the PLAN been accorded higher priority it would today be nearing competition with the US navy; that is still some years away.

Deng's strategy for development of China's comprehensive national power focused upon agriculture, technology and industry with the military at the lowest rung (and PLAN at the lowest priority among the armed forces).

Till the comprehensive national power did not come of age, Deng looked towards peaceful and stable borders, with progressive ramping up of coercion as it neared its goal.

China is aware of India's peaceful and non-aggressive stance but perceives India's geo-strategic location providing it the potential for future power ambitions, alone or in conjunction with other nations.

A developing strategic partnership with the US and possibility of India being a part of larger strategic equation is China's worst fear.

The domination of the entire stretch of the newly coined Indo-Pacific, by a strategic combine with India as a core member does not contribute to China's self-confidence.

For China, India is not an enemy, but it has far too much potential to be one if its strategic ambitions rise or if it partners with China's adversaries.

The Himalayan belt provides the best opportunity to play out China's strategy.

No war and no peace will keep India rooted and focused to its northern borders; its threats historically have come from the land borders and it has rarely ventured to look at its vast maritime zone as a domain of opportunity.

China wishes to keep it that way; nothing like promoting an existing mindset.

The 1962 border war acts as a psychological dampener but contributes to the priority India feels compulsive about to accord to its northern borders.

To enhance that compulsion, China strategises to keep the Tibet region active; maneuvers, exercises, technology and armament demonstrations, all help to build a threat.

This is supplemented by patrol clashes and walk in operations across the perceived LAC. Under the circumstances China possibly perceives that non resolution of the LAC is actually a major psychological advantage.

It also assists in promoting the idea of a possible 'dual front war' and helps dilute Indian military capability against Pakistan in the west which in turn promotes Sino-Pak strategic relations so necessary for China's outreach to the north west Indian Ocean.

India cannot take these Chinese activities lightly and it needs to keep a strategic dissuasion in place given Pakistan's constant pin pricks in the west.

The Indian Army has done well in contesting Chinese claims and cannot accept a condescending attitude nor any form of military bullying. However, the potential of one such LAC engagement going out of control and leading to heavy casualties cannot be ruled out.

Suitable selection of personnel, training and briefing of these outsize patrols is almost a compulsion. It is unlikely that China will wish to expand the ambit of the fallout of such clashes all along the LAC; early containment will be its strategy too.

A Sino Indian border war or something more gives China no strategic gains.

With a degree of risk investment, perhaps what India needs to do is to ramp up its maritime capability and ability to play a role commensurate to its strategic interests in the Indian Ocean.

Its economic engagement with China must continue even as its multilateral approach to security does not shun its increasingly recognised role in the security of the Indo Pacific.

But given all this it should also prepare its public and its forces for increasingly hot summers along the LAC.

Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain (retd), PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, SM, VSM is one of India's most respected commentators on national security.
The general commanded the Indian Army's 15 Army Corps in Kashmir and was known as the 'People's General' in the Kashmir Valley.
General Hasnain is a frequent contributor to Rediff.com.
 

cereal killer

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Pakistan has been lucky there's no denying that. Afghanistan & Taliban has always been Pakistan's guardian angel & they got billions of dollars from US too. Moreover they still get aid from Arab countries. Nobody knows how things will shape up in future. Still I'd like to say taking back PoK can be a long waiting game. In my view India should import separatist leaders from Gilgit Baltistan & give them a seat in Indian Parliament & show the world that we mean business. It will also send a strong message to the west that there is also problem in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Take the spotlight away from our Kashmir & focus fully on GB.. Then in case Pakistan tries any misadventure we should grab as much as we can.
@abhay rajput this is my view regarding PoK
 
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Pakistan has been lucky there's no denying that. Afghanistan & Taliban has always been Pakistan's guardian angel & they got billions of dollars from US too. Moreover they still get aid from Arab countries. Nobody knows how things will shape up in future. Still I'd like to say taking back PoK can be a long waiting game. In my view India should import separatist leaders from Gilgit Baltistan & give them a seat in Indian Parliament & show the world that we mean business. It will also send a strong message to the west that there is also problem in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Take the spotlight away from our Kashmir & focus fully on GB.. Then in case Pakistan tries any misadventure we should grab as much as we can.
Pakistan is empowered by many early failures of Indian policy:
failing to stop the Kashmir issue from start
passing article 370
Nehru going to UN with the Kashmir issue and looking like an idiot in front of the world
signing Indus water treaty where 80 PERCENT of the water goes to Pakistan
Fighting wars and giving back gains and territory captured -soldiers died for nothing
Staying in the communist camp and preventing any economic progress for decades
lack of Industrial military infrastructure
allowing Pakis to create and expand nuclear program

It is not anything special that Pakistan has done to upstage India.
But much of it is lack of strategic thinking and policy by India itself that has
empowered Pakistan to the point it is today.

Has India made an issue in the UN that POK is Indian territory???????
 
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abhay rajput

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@abhay rajput this is my view regarding PoK
Pok isn't possible because there isn't much will other than statements. Military needs to be modernized for that in a way that even a common citizen will know something is going on. Your views are good but they will not get us POK. It will only irritate them nothing else. We need to completely disassemble Pakistan for that purpose.
 

cereal killer

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Pakistan is empowered by many early failures of Indian policy:
failing to stop the Kashmir issue from start
passing article 370
Nehru going to UN with the Kashmir issue and looking like an idiot in front of the world
signing Indus water treaty where 80 PERCENT of the water goes to Pakistan
Fighting wars and giving back gains and territory captured -soldiers died for nothing
Staying in the communist camp and preventing an economic progress for decades
lack of Industrial military infrastructure
allowing Pakis to create and expand nuclear program

It is not anything special that Pakistan has down to always to upstage India.
But much of it is lack of strategic thinking and policy by India itself that has
empowered Pakistan to the point it is today.

Has India made an issue in the UN that POK is Indian territory???????
You are spot on. India has made countless mistakes in the past. Nehru was a idiot & Shastri was plain dumb. I still don't know why we gave up Haji peer pass in 1965. We can't gain much by dwelling into past & instead we should learn from it. The big issue is why don't we claim PoK in talk about in UN General Assembly? Pakistan makes so much hue & cry about our Kashmir but we stay silent on PoK. So far these corrupt politicians only give lollypop to our Public saying PoK is ours & we will take it & in reality we haven't even done zilch to show the world that PoK is ours. Showing Temperatures of Gilgit would do no benefit. Even when I was a kid DD used to show Temperature of Gilgit. Did it change anything? Big fat no
 

Kumata

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Keeping them on their toes doesn't mean we're going for PoK and Pak army knows this as they analyse study IA postures across LoC and no real damage done to Pak military installations across LoC till now. Only a full scale military conflict required to take back PoK like in 65.
you forget the coin example while replying to my post. No body knows which way it will fall ...I have my hopes... we are screwed economically anyways thanks to chinese virus...cheeni's cannot posture given the world mis trust....our relation with world are at high...unlike earlier, we are better placed... but yes, i had prefer porkis to start it....kargil was a golden opportunity...IMO
 

Bhadra

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Chinese are getting Jittery everywhere. They fully know that India is consolidating her position along LAC especially in those areas from where India can launch offensives into Tibet.

Chumby Valley - Doklam
North Sikkim
Lipulekh
Galwan..

All these areas provide good avenues of Ingress to Indian Army to push into Chinese vital areas. Latest news that is doing round is Galwan valley where Chinese are accusing India of using forward are building defences.. Chinese are bound to be jittery there... Look at the map -

Galwan 1.jpg
 
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Bhadra

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An Infantry Mechanised thrust into Galwan Valley would directly lead to the interdiction of Chinse highway linking Tibet and Jinjiang. Indians seem to be serious about undoing 1962. Galwan valley can be approached from the Khardungla axis as also from Tangste Shyok Valley. One Mechanised brigade and one Infantry division would be the end of the Chinese highway...

In the event of India's forays into POK - GB, Chinese misadventures can be stemmed if these areas are firmly held y India. Looking London - seeing Tokiyo..:daru:


Galwan 2.jpg
 
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