India China LAC & International Border Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.

garg_bharat

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
4,573
Likes
8,214
Country flag
There are improvements in infra, pushing Tejas and even basic protective gear for our troops. But that's it. The so called "National security" or "Modernisation" or " aatmanirubhar" hasn't happened which was promised in their manifesto. I agree that this is not the thread to discuss that, but some people pulling random numbers from the internet, using fancy words expect the public to believe GoI has done brilliant things when even one month hasn't passed where 20 soldiers had given their lives. If it was UPA did the same they would have blasted them. Some people objective here isn't doing critical analysis, but doing analysis in not showing the BJP in bad light. Ask questions. Get labelled Congress Dalal or worse. GoI didn't even let IA hold some other area for negotiation. We are constantly losing land. Ladakhis are losing their gazing ground.

I do not believe 100 died. That's just propaganda by ruling party bots. Trusted sources have said a minimum of 16 to a max of 35. I am not buying any imaginery numbers nor I would like to feel good at "Hey me 1 dead, you 3 dead". Every Indian soldier life is precious. And govt job is to provide means to that soldier to fight well.
You can believe what you want to believe. It is not my job to try to change your opinion.

However you are wrong.

A lot has happened though pace can be questioned. Funds is always a problem in India where lot of people are still near or under poverty line. Social programs are needed to keep the country cohesive.

I agree that limits on expenditure translates to limits on strategic options. India has basically rolled back its role in Iran and limited its role in Afghanistan. The proposed airbase at Aini never happened. The events in Nepal etc. also show our lack of moneypower.

But the ability of India to defend itself has increased tremendously in NDA years.
 
Last edited:

Sehwag213

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
Messages
1,098
Likes
4,928
Country flag
That's different. Pla death is different. I have been following some Chinese forum. Some members who claimed atleast 10 deaths had their accounts disabled. They reported based on Osint. Some actually took small processions with urns. How will they hide 100?

Covid 19, you take an dead body straight to cremation. Tell them the patient died of heart attack or some other reason. They have no option.
You can hide anything if you have controlled internet, media and no opposition to worry.
The brawl incident happened on 15 th night and we were informed on 16 th around 1:30 pm.
If Indian government can control information for 16 hrs , imagine what China can do with controlled internet.
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
6,671
Likes
24,827
Country flag
This MEA is foremost responsible for the death of 20 soldiers. They wanted negotiations and in the meanwhile Chinese intruded further.
Really? Where did they intrude? That's news to me. Have you witnessed first hand the Chinese intruding into our area or are you just parroting some idiot's disinfo who's sitting a thousand miles away, bashing his keyboard? Please educate us since we are clueless.

And before answering get to know the difference between perception lines, LAC, no man's land, buffer zones etc. And the Chinese never crossed PP14. They erected tents within the buffer zone (specified in the commanders meeting on 5th Jun) a few meters from PP14 on their side which they were not supposed to do as per the agreement, which resulted in the scuffle.
 
Last edited:

BeEverVectorMan

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
341
Likes
954
Country flag
But the ability of India to defend itself has increased tremendously in NDA years.
That is worth telling nda chose to respond instead of making condemnation act or telling world to act on them

During mms rule our embassy were bombed, juvenile target mumbai lots of terrorist came, lots of bomb blast happened in different parts of India, chini army freely used to roam in Ladakh but the government of that time chose to remain silent
 

garg_bharat

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
4,573
Likes
8,214
Country flag
That's different. Pla death is different. I have been following some Chinese forum. Some members who claimed atleast 10 deaths had their accounts disabled. They reported based on Osint. Some actually took small processions with urns. How will they hide 100?

Covid 19, you take an dead body straight to cremation. Tell them the patient died of heart attack or some other reason. They have no option.
They can hide millions of deaths, forget 100.

You speak against CCP in China, you will be kidnapped and tortured. Your family will be hounded.

You have absolutely no idea of realities.

Chinese message boards are for fools like you who have no idea of realities.
 

Sweety Patel

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
49
Likes
151
Country flag
That is worth telling nda chose to respond instead of making condemnation act or telling world to act on them

During mms rule our embassy were bombed, juvenile target mumbai lots of terrorist came, lots of bomb blast happened in different parts of India, chini army freely used to roam in Ladakh but the government of that time chose to remain silent
they massacred 300+ people at mumbai. yet, our madam ji was crying at the dead bodies of terrorist
 

garg_bharat

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
4,573
Likes
8,214
Country flag
Simply no way there is no way the government wouldnt publize such stuff to promote make in India etc etc.

Why would they miss on such an opportunity.

Are you telling me we already have tejas or atags or lch deployed i dont think so.

Of course many orders wont be published but then these are not big ticket projects and just normal stuff.
Don't worry about make in India. Orders on DPSU and OFB do not make it to the press until 'leaked'.

Leaks have been much less under NDA.

Orders on private industry made through DPSUs are also generally not publicized except to show 'progress' in key projects.
 

utubekhiladi

The Preacher
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
4,376
Likes
8,267
Country flag
Explained: In archives, reminder of Galwan in 1962 before the echo in 2020

India-China border dispute: Archives of The Indian Express from 1962 reflect how tensions unfolded in the same areas of Ladakh, particularly Galwan, that have been in the news in the last two months.

In July 58 years ago, Indian and Chinese troops were taking steps towards disengagement on the Line of Actual Control. On July 15, 1962, The Sunday Standard ran its front-page lead report with the headline ‘Chinese Troops Withdraw From Galwan Post’. And on July 8, 2020, The Indian Express headline on the current steps towards disengagement ran: ‘After Galwan Valley, troops on both sides start pulling back in Hot Springs sector’.

Archives of The Indian Express from 1962 reflect how tensions unfolded in the same areas of Ladakh, particularly Galwan, that have been in the news in the last two months.

June 12, 1962
China has charged India with setting up Army posts on its territory; India denies it.

Report: The Indian Express reports the government’s rejection of the Chinese assertion that the Indian Army has set up two new posts in Sinkiang-Uighur of Chinese territory. It says India has protested against establishment of a post in Chip-Chap river and that China had ordered aggressive patrolling by its forces from Karakoram Pass on one end of the border to Kongka La on the other.

1594354255720.png


June 14, 1962
Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru says Chinese have entered Indian territory.

Report: The headline notes that the PM rules out war and also that China is ‘unhappy over rift with India’. Nehru is quoted as saying that “they (China) are not happy with our present relations”. The PM also says the Chinese have crossed into large chunks of Indian territory in Ladakh.

June 20, 1962
Notes are exchanged over incursions in Ladakh and NEFA

Report: ‘India’s Defences No Menace to Chinese’, says the headline, adding that the Chinese charges of intrusion in Ladakh have been repudiated by India. The report highlights the government’s statement to China about incursions in Ladakh as well as a village in the eastern sector, along with the fact that India and China have “exchanged notes”.

June 21, 1962
Nehru’s statement in Parliament about situation getting better in Ladakh

Report: Front page reports PM’s speech that the military situation on the northern borders is more advantageous to India than it was previously “and the advantage is growing”. It quotes Nehru as saying, “I do not say the position is hundred percent satisfactory, but it is getting better and better”.

June 23, 1962
India reiterates it will not accept Chinese demands to withdraw posts in Daulat Beg Oldie, asks for mutual withdrawal of forces

Report: Headline declares ‘India Not To Abandon Posts in Ladakh’; ‘Armed Clash Threat By Peking Deplored’. The report quotes Nehru as saying that a fear complex has gripped China. The then Deputy External Affairs Minister, Dinesh Singh, is quoted as saying that India had asked China for mutual withdrawal of forces in a note dated May 14.

July 11, 1962
Indian Army post in Galwan valley is surrounded by Chinese troops

Report: It refers to a post in Galwan valley surrounded by 400 Chinese troops. It notes that the lower reaches are not only well inside Indian territory but also 28 miles from the claim line shown by the Chinese 1956 map about which Premier Chou En Lai had written to Nehru on November 17, 1959. Referring to a Chinese memorandum of June 8, the Indian government is quoted as saying, “If as claimed in the Chinese memorandum, the Chinese troops have infiltrated and set up a post in the lower reaches of Galwan river it is a serious violation of Indian territory. It must be vacated.”

July 12, 1962
Ministry of External Affairs says Indian troops will retaliate if attacked in Ladakh

Report: A map of the Northern borders is published on the front page, with a cross marking Galwan valley position encircled by the Chinese. “Should the Chinese attack the Indian Post here, the Indian forces will retaliate appropriately,” a Ministry of External Affairs spokespeson is quoted as saying.

July 14, 1962
Chinese troops tighten encirclement; India warns of firing in self-defence

Report: ‘China Warned Against New Moves in Galwan’ reads the headline. Report quotes the Indian government as saying the Chinese troops are now only 50-70 yards from Indian troops in Galwan post.

July 15, 1962
Chinese troops withdraw some distance from the Indian post

Report: It quotes officials as saying that great courage was shown by Indian jawans in the face of Chinese troops 15 times stronger and that the warning delivered by Delhi to China had a telling effect. Asked if there will be a major clash, Nehru is quoted as saying, “There is a risk of clash but not a major one”. Another report states the government’s position that Aksai Chin was never part of China.

July 16, 1962
Nehru praises tenacity of Army jawans

Report: ‘Nehru Happy at Chinese Withdrawal.’ The headline adds, ‘No Wish To Provoke Shooting in Galwan’. Report says Nehru praises jawans guarding the frontiers.

July 17, 1962
Chinese troops withdraw 200 yards from Indian post in Galwan; China complain of Indian posts in Pangong Lake area

Report: Headline notes the situation is still tense. An MEA spokesperson is quoted as saying the Chinese have withdrawn 200 yards and are 400 in number. Another report notes that the Chinese have alleged that India has set up three posts at Sirijap on the banks of Pangong Lake about 2 km inside Chinese territory, at Yula on the Southern bank of the lake “over ten km within China”, and northwest of Nyugzu “about five km within China”.

July 23, 1962
First incidents of firing since 1959 Hot Springs incident

Report: The headline notes Chinese troops have fired on Indian guards and two jawans have been injured in Ladakh valley. The report says the “Indian party exercised restraint and did not fire back” in Pangong area. At Chip Chap river, an Indian patrol was attacked with light machine guns, rifles and two-inch mortars and this time returned fire.

July 25, 1962
Chinese troops attempt to sever Indian lines of communication and supply to Galwan post

Report: ‘Chinese Bid to Set Up Base in Galwan’ — the report says the government has urged that Chinese forces stop interfering with the communication and supplies to the Indian post and withdraw peacefully.

August 23, 1962
India sets terms for talks, sends fresh troops to relieve those at Galwan post

Report: The headline reads ‘Border Talks Only If Aggression Is Vacated’. Nehru is quoted as saying Galwan garrison would be relieved soon by a column sent by road.

September 13, 1962
Focus shifts to NEFA as Chinese launch full-scale invasion across MacMohan Line

Report: The headline states ‘Chinese Troops Advance into NEFA’. The report says Delhi is rushing forces.

Hereafter, developments in the Northeast would take centrestage. On October 19, 1962 the Chinese launched an offensive in Ladakh and took over Chip Chap valley, Galwan valley and posts in Pangong.

 

utubekhiladi

The Preacher
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
4,376
Likes
8,267
Country flag
Make 1962 war report public: War veterans

The statement signed by 143 veterans said the report should be made public so that “the military-bureaucratic-political system and the public” can learn from past mistakes.


any bets? soccer mom & sons will move heaven and earth to stop this report from being made public


:cruisin2::cruisin2:
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,923
Likes
23,152
Country flag
Make 1962 war report public: War veterans

The statement signed by 143 veterans said the report should be made public so that “the military-bureaucratic-political system and the public” can learn from past mistakes.


any bets? soccer mom & sons will move heaven and earth to stop this report from being made public


:cruisin2::cruisin2:

This War report is summery is already in public as it was given To Maxwell by some "deep Thraot"... his book "India's China War" though is not in print avaialble i market..
One can read the summery on Claud Arpi website.

However. I am very sure that report can not be made public...

They say how can a Brigadier (Then Brigadier PS Bhagat who was the member of the Committee) pull down pants of a PM, Defense Minister, Foreign Secretary. Defence Secretary and specially Director IB and Army brass in an official report. That poor gallant and distinguished officer would be overlooked for COAS post subsequently by the Congress government.
 
Last edited:

Akula

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,380
Likes
4,150
Country flag
This War report is summery is already in public as it was given To Maxwell by some "deep Thraot"... his book "India's China War" though is not in print avaialble i market..
One can read the summery on Claud Arpi website.

However. I am very sure that report can not be made public...

They say how can a Brigadier (Then Brigadier PS Bhagat who was the member of the Committee) pull down pants of a PM, Defense Minister, Foreign Secretary. Defence Secretary and specially Director IB and Army brass in an official report. That poor gallant and distinguished officer would be overlooked for COAS post subsequently by the Congress government.
Is it true that "The Himalayan Blunder" book is banned in India?
 

cereal killer

Senior Member
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
1,498
Likes
5,365
Country flag
This War report is summery is already in public as it was given To Maxwell by some "deep Thraot"... his book "India's China War" though is not in print avaialble i market..
One can read the summery on Claud Arpi website.

However. I am very sure that report can not be made public...

They say how can a Brigadier (Then Brigadier PS Bhagat who was the member of the Committee) pull down pants of a PM, Defense Minister, Foreign Secretary. Defence Secretary and specially Director IB and Army brass in an official report. That poor gallant and distinguished officer would be overlooked for COAS post subsequently by the Congress government.
I guess that's the same report which painted India as the aggressor & blamed Nehru's forward policy as the main reason of conflict. Nehru came out & played the victim card through his connections.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,923
Likes
23,152
Country flag
Is it true that "The Himalayan Blunder" book is banned in India?
No it is available.... not banned. it is a good story of a brigadier who refused to withdraw ...
How ever a new book... That War that was Not by Kunal Verma is a good read on he same topic..
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,923
Likes
23,152
Country flag
I guess that's the same report which painted India as the aggressor & blamed Nehru's forward policy as the main reason of conflict. Nehru came out & played the victim card through his connections.
The report did not paint Nehru as aggressor but exposed their nonmilitary like unprofessional interference. Maxwell's book -India's China War does paint India as aggressors... It is believed that this Time reporter Maxwell in Delhi during War and subsequently settled in Australia was under heavy Chinese Influence..
 

ashdoc

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
2,927
Likes
3,453
Country flag
This War report is summery is already in public as it was given To Maxwell by some "deep Thraot"... his book "India's China War" though is not in print avaialble i market..
One can read the summery on Claud Arpi website.

However. I am very sure that report can not be made public...

They say how can a Brigadier (Then Brigadier PS Bhagat who was the member of the Committee) pull down pants of a PM, Defense Minister, Foreign Secretary. Defence Secretary and specially Director IB and Army brass in an official report. That poor gallant and distinguished officer would be overlooked for COAS post subsequently by the Congress government.
20200710_104050.jpg


Here is my copy of 'India's China war'

Review of it I have written earlier---



One word of caution. Don't read the book!!
neville is a british communist and and everything he writes is pro china. i almost got convinced of the chinese case myself!!

once the reports started coming out of the newspapers of china having built a highway through indian territory in aksai chin,the indian govt was awoken from its dreamworld of india china bhai bhai.

jana sangh raised hell in parlament about the neglect of national security which had led to this lapse.

the nehru govt was compelled to send patrols in to aksai chin.initially they met with some success.

this was the pattern . some forty of our soldiers would establish a post inside chinese occupied territory.the chinese would confront it and an eyeball to eyeball confrontation would take place between the two forces. some time later the chinese would back down. the chinese had obviously not been given the order to attack our soildiers.this happened several times.

the nehru govt-fresh from its success in kicking out the portugese form goa felt it could achieve a similar success in kicking out the chinese . nehru felling a false sense of bravado talked in parlament of ''throwing them out back where they came from.''

as indians inched closer to the highway the confrontations led to actual clashes.

the govt took the decision to patrol the macmohan line in arunachal, what the chinese called the line of control.

the problem arose when indians decided to patrol thagla ridge at the western tip of arunachal . here the macmohan line itself was disputed as the chinese felt that the line passed through the namka chu river to the south of it.

the indians however decided to press their claim and deployed a brigade of troops under brigadier john dalvi onto the ridge.

this finally angered the chinese to teach india a lesson.

they attacked the indians on thagla ridge. the frontal assaults failed but the chinese had enormous numerical superiority.they captured the tsangle position on the flank which was less well defended and then attacked from the flank. soon the indians were forced to withdraw from the thagla ridge and retreat to the namka chu river.

DRAGONNADE AT NAMKA CHU-

the indians thought that the namka chu river position was safe as the chinese had accepted it as the line of control. the thagla ridge action had been a pure local action to remove them from disputed territory ,they thought.

they were in for a shocker when the chinese made a full scale frontal assault on the position.. this time they used human wave tactics- that is wave after wave of chinese soildiers would attack the indians.when one wave was exhausted the second and then the third would attack - sometimes without weapons and picking up the weapons of their dead comrades on the way.

the chinese obviously were carrying out a full scale invasion. certainly this was no impromptu decision and they had been preparing for war for years .
dalvi watched the slaughter of his men helplessly.certainly they killed many more than they lost-human wave tactics are costly in terms of lives-but the chinese thuoght their soldiers expendable and had far more to lose.

when all was lost dalvi tried to escape. he was caught and became among the first prisoners of war. he survived the war to write a highly emotional and personal account of the war-HIMALAYAN BLUNDER.

the news stunned the nation.the immediate effect was to abandon the famous monastory of tawang as resistance in this part was thought to be hopeless.

the experts advised to hold the position at bomdila-sound military advice as the position here was was far away from the chinese troops and by the time they came there the indians could have built massive supiriority. but that would mean abandoning a large part of arunachal to the invaders- politically inpossible to do.

so it was decided to hold the se la pass nearer to the chinese, also bomdila far behind it and darang dzong in between them.

the chinese decided not to carry out a frontal assault on se la. the instead found a route through the mountains called bailey trail- explored by britisher bailey a long time ago.

they defeated the weak troops defending the trail and came up behind the sela pass and in between that position and bomdila.

obviously sela had to be abandoned . but the senior officers began to pass the buck for taking this decision as it would mean the end of the carreer of the officer who ordered this retreat.

at night it was decided to remove part of the force and keep the rest.this news led to collapse of morale at sela as the troops felt abandoned to their fate.
the chinese quckly took advantage to capture it along with plenty prisoners.

now the position at darang dzong came in danger, so a force was detached to defend it thereby weakening the position at bomdila.
darang dzong was captured before the force could reach it and the force also was caught in the open on the road where they could shot at and was annihilated. the force at bomdila was too weak to defend its positon now and was defeated.

at the eastern tip of arunachal the chinese attacked the strongly defended airstrip of walong . they were completely defeated and driven out sustaining heavy losses.the indians were stupid enough to take advantage of this to attack the heavily defended chinese positions and failed-taking heavy losses themselves.the chinese quicking attcked to capture walong- now there was not a singli indian soldier in NEFA- as arunachal was called then.

in aksai chin the chinese drove out all the posts indians had established in the past years .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top