India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[fire starter]

 

[Bhadra]

Actually these people are highly respected in the defense field. They are traditionally right wing strategists. They were expecting to get some strategic role in this current government. That didn't come to fruition for unknown reasons so they are upset about it and is is theorized that some of what they write now is in frustration. However there is no questioning their expertise

If you label Praveen Swahney and Ashok Swine as respectable defense experts then I will call a cucumber as huge pumpkin....

 

[garg_bharat]

why these guys Brahma chellaney, Ashok swine and pravin swanhey look same?

India is a democratic country and there will be all kind of views both in favour and against a ruling government.

Only unfortunate situation is when people indulge in blatant lies.

Indian government cannot waste precious resources going after every person. In our political setup, ignoring is better option sometimes.

Even attacking lies in public setting is difficult sometimes due to sensitive nature of information. Keeping silent is preferred.

 

[Knowitall]

Actually these people are highly respected in the defense field. They are traditionally right wing strategists. They were expecting to get some strategic role in this current government. That didn't come to fruition for unknown reasons so they are upset about it and is is theorized that some of what they write now is in frustration. However there is no questioning their expertise

Ashok swain right wing? Bhai kya phuk raho ho mujhe bhi bata do.

 

[utubekhiladi]

If you label Praveen Swahney and Ashok Swine as respectable defense experts then I will call a cucumber as huge pumpkin....

why do you hit sixers always

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Tejas is far and way better than any 4th Generation aircraft China has made so far it’s better than most of the western 4th Generation aircraft in it’s category maybe Griepen E is going to be better than Tejas but it’s still not in production and if our MIC is almost non existent Chinese MIC also doesn’t produce reliable weapons and platforms. With western weapons in our inventory we do have edge over PLA

 

[fire starter]

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Nepal Army is pro India because most of them are trained in India they get perks from India many of them married to indians their kids study in India get married in India and prefer to get Indian citizenship

 

[Knowitall]

India cannot buy locally until and unless indian equipments match the standards of western ones (like Tejas did) because Pakistan will always get western weapons China will get Russian weapons India is left with no other option but to invest heavily in millitary research and development to match the standards of Germany France UK and US France is much smaller economy than India there defence budget is much smaller than ours if they can make why not us

Load of bs this is one of the worst arguments I have heard till date.

1) ilga-s failed
2) spike failed
3) barak SAM ordered before testing but apparently testing only matters when we make stuff at home.
4) Tejas mk1 is better than mig-21 but no orders and someone said to me orders wi come in July ghanta.
5) lch no orders
6) ATAGS 3 saal se testing no orders.

We must have top notch equipment so we need foreign maal bro samjho na bro.

But at the same let's use mig-21 Jaguar mig-29 with engine problems because foreign maal best bro.

 

[garg_bharat]

The Europeans have a huge superiority complex (specially north Europeans) and looking down upon India is a favorite pastime. Europeans are also a headache for USA to form a viable anti-China alliance.

The Netherlands and Sweden based thinktanks have been anti-India generally. I am not surprised at views coming from this area. Who speaks, a person of Indian origin does not matter. Institution matters.

It is the combined will of Indian people to defend itself that will play when it comes to war. And I think India will defend itself well.

 

[Knowitall]

The Europeans have a huge superiority complex (specially north Europeans) and looking down upon India is a favorite pastime. Europeans are also a headache for USA to form a viable anti-China alliance.

The Netherlands and Sweden based thinktanks have been anti-India generally. I am not surprised at views coming from this area. Who speaks, a person of Indian origin does not matter. Institution matters.

It is the combined will of Indian people to defend itself that will play when it comes to war. And I think India will defend itself well.

Europe both likes to shit on aisa and the US in general to display some sort or superiority over us.

Germany and many other european countries like italy are still very much pro-china.

The whole market status fiasco was not due to covid or hate but to simply score in the ongoing US-China trade war.

They understand that they are lagging behind so they are trying to leverage wherever they can.

India should closely retrospect it's ties with european countries except france since many of them are anti-India.

This current standoff against china should help us identify who is supporting whom.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I see you guys are latching on to big ticket items. There are a lot of small ticket items which matter as much.
I see huge improvements at airbases during NDA era based on Google map satellite pictures.
Now you do not see aircrafts parked in the open. Earlier you could see even high value Su-30 parked in the open. Just giving you one example.

There are many but cannot be written.

India has a lot of tanks, guns etc. of older generation. Even upgrades and proper maintenance can make a huge difference in many cases.

Issue is not if a program started in UPA. Issue is how well and with what speed it is executed.

I am very impressed with the progress in LCA Tejas. Though deliveries are slow, the work on making Tejas relevant in today's threat environment is fast. A Mig-21 replacement is no longer relevant today. You need a fighter better (at least at par) than adversary.

One can argue slow pace of artillery acquisitions. This is due to lack of capacities in Indian industry; as well as limited budget. But remember even older artillery pieces are not junk. These can be effective if spares are available. Many things are dependent on good management.

There are improvements in infra, pushing Tejas and even basic protective gear for our troops. But that's it. The so called "National security" or "Modernisation" or " aatmanirubhar" hasn't happened which was promised in their manifesto. I agree that this is not the thread to discuss that, but some people pulling random numbers from the internet, using fancy words expect the public to believe GoI has done brilliant things when even one month hasn't passed where 20 soldiers had given their lives. If it was UPA did the same they would have blasted them. Some people objective here isn't doing critical analysis, but doing analysis in not showing the BJP in bad light. Ask questions. Get labelled Congress Dalal or worse. GoI didn't even let IA hold some other area for negotiation. We are constantly losing land. Ladakhis are losing their gazing ground.

I do not believe 100 died. That's just propaganda by ruling party bots. Trusted sources have said a minimum of 16 to a max of 35. I am not buying any imaginery numbers nor I would like to feel good at "Hey me 1 dead, you 3 dead". Every Indian soldier life is precious. And govt job is to provide means to that soldier to fight well.

 

[garg_bharat]

Load of bs this is one of the worst arguments I have heard till date.

1) ilga-s failed
2) spike failed
3) barak SAM ordered before testing but apparently testing only matters when we make stuff at home.
4) Tejas mk1 is better than mig-21 but no orders and someone said to me orders wi come in July ghanta.
5) lch no orders
6) ATAGS 3 saal se testing no orders.

We must have top notch equipment so we need foreign maal bro samjho na bro.

But at the same let's use mig-21 Jaguar mig-29 with engine problems because foreign maal best bro.

I think local products can be ordered without publicizing.
Only large orders when CCS approval is required are published by the press.

Typical DPSU orders do not make it to the press.

I do not think you or anybody (except top leadership) has a good idea of actual procurements.

So chill.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Tejas is far and way better than any 4th Generation aircraft China has made so far it’s better than most of the western 4th Generation aircraft in it’s category maybe Griepen E is going to be better than Tejas but it’s still not in production and if our MIC is almost non existent Chinese MIC also doesn’t produce reliable weapons and platforms with western weapons in our inventory we do have edge over PLA

the things about tejas is, it left a fine revolution of smaller industries which will support next indigenous aircraft.

tejas has hit all tik marks for indigenisation. don't be rude and compare it apples to oranges.. for example, don't compare uttam radar with radars from other countries.

the points is, once the base technology and industries is setup, it can always be improved from there.

indigenous frame
indigenous composite materials
indigenous engine
indigenous avionics
indigenous weapons
indigenous radar
indigenous flightcontrols
indigenous flybywire
indigenous cockpit
indigenous EW
indigenous EMCS
indigenous IFF
indigenous EEMS
indigenous DFMS
indigenous Datalink
indigenous Sat and navigation
indigenous (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit", HUD
indigenous TERPROM, VOR–ILS, EGPWS
indigenous RWR
indigenous MAW
indigenous LWR
indigenous landing gear for ships

 

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[fire starter]

 

[Bhadra]

See. I am starting to get labelled just cos I criticized the govt I had voted for with respect to national security.

Kalyani ones are supposed to have been tested and ordered by now. Infact Saudis are now interested in that and wants them to move there.

Except for 114 Dhanush, nothing has been ordered yet but are still under so called testing for years. There is atags one cleared testing, M777 was supposed to be ordered more through Mahindra. But none came.

As for K9, the premise asking L&T to set up a factory was they were promised follow on orders. I wouldn't set up a damn factory for 100 units. So don't you dare defend this policy.

1. Don't make me laugh on the subs. P75I is still at RFi stage. If you are talking about SSN order, a grand total of 100 crores was sanctioned last year

2. Vishakhapatnam was ordered in 2011 and construction began in 2013.

3. Nilgiris ordered in 2017.

4. 126 orders into 36. Ok. 114 MMRCA still awaiting. Tejas mk1A under negotiation since 2016. Price finalised in early 2019. Final deal awaited since long. 15 LcH, Dhruv weaponisation are waiting financial clearance.

5. 500 T90 ordered, 118Mk1A tells the story.

INS arihant and Arighat were ordered and placed in UPA era. Current NDA had no role in that. Moreover ordered for 3 more boomers were too cleared in UPa era.

I have a friend owning a start up who works in defence. So there is no need convincing me that this govt has been great in defence spending. Private companies are literally bleeding without orders, and yet Modi comes and asks for make in India aatmanirubhar and he will come with another fancy name in next 2 years and yet will order nothing. You need to convince them why orders is not being placed and why our armed forces are not even provided money to pay for already signed projects.

Please tell me which military industrial complex in he world cater only for the requirement of their own Armed Forces only and guaranteed orders ? It is supposed to cater for market.

L&T and other private firms responded to govt requirements on commercial basis in competitive environment. They did not establish factories and start the business on the condition that they continue to be given orders infinitely even if there is no demand or there is no money..

Take the case of L&T... they are about to complete supply of ordered 100 SPH in commendable time. However, how can further orders be given to L&T when IA does not require more SPH.
SPH is one category which is terrain and mission type specefic system and can not be employed somewhere else.
SPH cost about 45 crores equivalant to three Dhanush How, and 45 upgraded Sarang guns.. which bloody fool on earth will order Vajra when he wants Dahnush or Sarang ??
L&T has options to use the factory and assembly line for making How guns. making tanks A vehicles etc.

Same is the case of Kalyani. Required ULH have been ordered. !A wants only 145 ULH to meet its requirements. Why should they accept more than that at such heightened costs.

All defense related private industry does need patronisation but they can not treat that a guarantee of their existence. There is vast international market and Indian business must cater to that needs.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Do you trust China's covid numbers? Because if they can hide or fake that , then they can do anything.

That's different. Pla death is different. I have been following some Chinese forum. Some members who claimed atleast 10 deaths had their accounts disabled. They reported based on Osint. Some actually took small processions with urns. How will they hide 100?

Covid 19, you take an dead body straight to cremation. Tell them the patient died of heart attack or some other reason. They have no option.

 

[Knowitall]

I think local products can be ordered without publicizing.
Only large orders when CCS approval is required are published by the press.

Typical DPSU orders do not make it to the press.

I do not think you or anybody (except top leadership) has a good idea of actual procurements.

So chill.

Simply no way there is no way the government wouldnt publize such stuff to promote make in India etc etc.

Why would they miss on such an opportunity.

Are you telling me we already have tejas or atags or lch deployed i dont think so.

Of course many orders wont be published but then these are not big ticket projects and just normal stuff.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

That's different. Pla death is different. I have been following some Chinese forum. Some members who claimed atleast 10 deaths had their accounts disabled. They reported based on Osint. Some actually took small processions with urns. How will they hide 100?

Covid 19, you take an dead body straight to cremation. Tell them the patient died of heart attack or some other reason. They have no option.

If China doesn’t declare officially about the no. Of casualties on their side these speculations will continue and it’s not just indians who are speculating western world is speculating too