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Varun2002

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^
A bit too sour and negative, though that's probably a good point about insufficient orders for domestic companies. It's not essentially about a political party, but about an outlook, a consciousness, a stirring of the soul, which the leader and party of the day is representing and expressing better than any other. India won't be back to business to usual this time. Not to the same degree. It will be much more selective than before.
 

utubekhiladi

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This thread is little bit cringing from India's point of view. All I see are many members professing loyalty to a party by claiming an imaginary Victory, using words like digital strike when we all know those apps will be back in a max of 6 months.
India is bigger than INC or BJP. as one pointed before, BJP has been "worse" than or equal to UPA. After Parrikar, no full time DM for 2 years, then again change DM into a new person. DM is not a ministry where one can change almost everyday. It takes even experienced politicians to learn and will take years. All private companies are begging for orders, and on the other hand Modi is shouting around Make in India while ordering zilch from Indian companies. Need money to order in the first place.
L&T is now ruing creating an factory cos there is no follow on orders for K9. Artillery of Kalyani, Tata, Mahindra delayed. No new big ships ordered in last 3-4 years. No subs. 6+ years and no new MMRCA or not even Mk1A despite 3 years of negotiations or even 15 LCH orders.
Tonbo is protesting suspension of its projects, MKU of its piecemeal orders, aerospace companies haven't got an single order despite showing their lots of new techs developed by them.
Finsas was killed long back, not yet revived. FICV, even basic military trucks from Tata or AL, ammunitions etc. The list is long and defence spending is now 1.5% of GDP before Covid. Next year won't be surprised if it's 1.3% just enough to pay salaries.

Again with new slogans, imaginary words seems to be the motto. I am really disappointed with the way Indian defence industry and our soldiers are short changed by our leaders repeatedly. We can't even embaraas the Chinese with 16 dead bodies passed and people are getting high with 100 PLA soldiers killed without even questioning the number. Even pla won't be able to suppress 100 death in this age.
i think your goal was to trash current govt without stating any facts or you may be misinformed.

i think you were more interested in kalyani group ultralight howitzers. based on open source Kalyani group has completed it's own internal trail last November only. how can we order immediately and IA is already ordered 5 gun to complete user trails.
also, other guns from kalyan are still relative new, introduced only 2-3 years ago. IA is definitely considering to order after completing trails.

about L&T, they partner with Hanwha Techwin to produce k9 gun. IA gave them order for 100 guns with options to buy more. they already deliver half the order. if IA doesn't need more guns of such types so they are not going to order it.

also, the following items were ordered..

6 x Made-in-India Submarines for Navy for 53,000 Crores back in 2015,
3 x Visakhapatnam class frigates were laid down D67, D68, D69 in last 4-5 years
4 x nilgiri class frigates were laid down in last 4-5 years (INS Himgiri, INS Visakhapatnam, INS Taragiri , INS Vindhyagiri was laid down this year)
36 x Rafales were ordered
118x arjun MK1A were ordered in the last 2-3 years

there are more items that have been ordered then we could possibly never know.
For example, INS arihaant is best kept secret in INS. nobody knows how any arihants we are making or already under water.

@no smoking
have already provided you with correct GDP figure.

Its nobody's fault that our previous DM passed due to natural causes. you can't pin that blame on anybody..

(all the above data are compiled from open internet research.. please quote this if any data is incorrect)
 
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Rajaraja Chola

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According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2019, India spent $71b on military, around 2.4% of GDP.

Will you believe our govt budget or some institute sitting in Sweden? They consider our Home Ministry budget under defence too. That's stupidity. Except for BSF, ITBP rest all other are internal forces only.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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i think your goal was to trash current govt without stating any facts or you may be misinformed.

i think you were more interested in kalyani group ultralight howitzers. based on open source Kalyani group has completed it's own internal trail last November only. how can we order immediately and IA is already ordered 5 gun to complete user trails.
also, other guns from kalyan are still relative new, introduced only 2-3 years ago. IA is definitely considering to order after completing trails.

about L&T, they partner with Hanwha Techwin to produce k9 gun. IA gave them order for 100 guns with options to buy more. they already deliver half the order. if IA doesn't need more guns of such types so they are not going to order it.

also, the following items were ordered..

6 x Made-in-India Submarines for Navy for 53,000 Crores back in 2015,
3 x Visakhapatnam class frigates were laid down D67, D68, D69 in last 4-5 years
4 x nilgiri class frigates were laid down in last 4-5 years (INS Himgiri, INS Visakhapatnam, INS Taragiri , INS Vindhyagiri was laid down this year)
36 x Rafales were ordered
118x arjun MK1A were ordered in the last 2-3 years

there are more items that have been ordered then we could possibly never know.
For example, INS arihaant is best kept secret in INS. nobody knows how any arihants we are making or already under water.

@no smoking
have already provided you with correct GDP figure.

Its nobody's fault that our previous DM passed due to natural causes. you can't pin that blame on anybody..

(all the above data are compiled from open internet research.. please quote this if any data is incorrect)
See. I am starting to get labelled just cos I criticized the govt I had voted for with respect to national security.

Kalyani ones are supposed to have been tested and ordered by now. Infact Saudis are now interested in that and wants them to move there.

Except for 114 Dhanush, nothing has been ordered yet but are still under so called testing for years. There is atags one cleared testing, M777 was supposed to be ordered more through Mahindra. But none came.

As for K9, the premise asking L&T to set up a factory was they were promised follow on orders. I wouldn't set up a damn factory for 100 units. So don't you dare defend this policy.

1. Don't make me laugh on the subs. P75I is still at RFi stage. If you are talking about SSN order, a grand total of 100 crores was sanctioned last year 😂

2. Vishakhapatnam was ordered in 2011 and construction began in 2013.

3. Nilgiris ordered in 2017.

4. 126 orders into 36. Ok. 114 MMRCA still awaiting. Tejas mk1A under negotiation since 2016. Price finalised in early 2019. Final deal awaited since long. 15 LcH, Dhruv weaponisation are waiting financial clearance.

5. 500 T90 ordered, 118Mk1A tells the story.

INS arihant and Arighat were ordered and placed in UPA era. Current NDA had no role in that. Moreover ordered for 3 more boomers were too cleared in UPa era.

I have a friend owning a start up who works in defence. So there is no need convincing me that this govt has been great in defence spending. Private companies are literally bleeding without orders, and yet Modi comes and asks for make in India aatmanirubhar and he will come with another fancy name in next 2 years and yet will order nothing. You need to convince them why orders is not being placed and why our armed forces are not even provided money to pay for already signed projects.
 

LondonParisTokyo

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This thread devolved from one where actual news and discussion was occurring to one where a bunch of idiots come in and say "Bharat Mata ki Jai" and just think that alone brings victory. Absolutely ridiculous. The guy that said Modi is failing by not ordering indigenously is absolutely spot on.
 

Bhadra

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Indeed, I read about the battle and the reason behind it. I understand that the 'map' according to the MacMahon line says that Thagla was in Chinese territory. But the general principle stated that watershed line was to be followed.
Orders came late, Chinese preempted us in occupying ThagLa and 7 Infantry Brigade was annhilated as it was caught in a killing bowl of Namka Chu valley and Brig. Dalwi was taken PoW ening the story.
God take care of those Nehru. Menon and Bhola Nath Malik who decided who will be the Genral to fight the war. where the troops will deploy and what will be the military tactics and objectives. They. specially the chief tactician BN Malik used Indian Army like a Police force to establish Naka and ordered that not a single inch of territory will be lost.

Since the Chinese had already driven IA from Thagla, they were then deployed deep down in Namkhachu to prevent Chinese crossing the river and thereby insuring not an inch of territory was lost. That was against the tactical necessity and Brig John Dalvi was overruled. An ASC General - Kaul took soldiers into the easiest killing ground. 2RAJPUT and Gorkhas were massacred in the nullah by the Chinese from heights across the river.

Having watched various imagery of the Chinese deployment in Galwan river valley, I was wondering if that was an open invitation for Indian Army to do Namkachu on them at larger scale... but it appears the Chinese thought that they had cut Indian balls in 1962 which can not grow again.

Yes , India can not start a war for my pleasure... or even for that matter for Indian public's pleasure.. howsoever demagogue a politician may be ...

बाढ़ की संभावनाएं सामने हैं,
और नदियों के किनारे घर बने हैं।

चीड़-वन में आंधियों की बात मत कर,
इन दरख्तों के बहुत नाज़ुक तने हैं।
 

rock127

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China successfully mobilized those big "53 countries" whose combined GDP is 4% of the world!

What do now? :scared2: A lot of them are debt ridden of Chini. :lol:


The ledger is brutally clear. Xi Jinping's regime has no allies of global economic weight or credibility.

Some 53 countries backed China's treatment of Hong Kong in the UN Human Rights Council, a body now under the thumb of Beijing. They make up just 4 per cent of the world's GDP. Most are authoritarian statelets locked into the neo-colonial infrastructure nexus of China's "belt and road" initiative.

The only G20 member to have lined up on China's side was Mohammad bin Salman's Saudi Arabia, a struggling middle-income autocracy running out of places to sell its oil.
 

Bhadra

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This thread devolved from one where actual news and discussion was occurring to one where a bunch of idiots come in and say "Bharat Mata ki Jai" and just think that alone brings victory. Absolutely ridiculous. The guy that said Modi is failing by not ordering indigenously is absolutely spot on.
What has happened to that what was ordered.... Modi is to run the country and not shitty OFB and DPSUs... first deliver what has been ordered and paid for... rather than sloganeering..
 

garg_bharat

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See. I am starting to get labelled just cos I criticized the govt I had voted for with respect to national security.

Kalyani ones are supposed to have been tested and ordered by now. Infact Saudis are now interested in that and wants them to move there.

Except for 114 Dhanush, nothing has been ordered yet but are still under so called testing for years. There is atags one cleared testing, M777 was supposed to be ordered more through Mahindra. But none came.

As for K9, the premise asking L&T to set up a factory was they were promised follow on orders. I wouldn't set up a damn factory for 100 units. So don't you dare defend this policy.

1. Don't make me laugh on the subs. P75I is still at RFi stage. If you are talking about SSN order, a grand total of 100 crores was sanctioned last year 😂

2. Vishakhapatnam was ordered in 2011 and construction began in 2013.

3. Nilgiris ordered in 2017.

4. 126 orders into 36. Ok. 114 MMRCA still awaiting. Tejas mk1A under negotiation since 2016. Price finalised in early 2019. Final deal awaited since long. 15 LcH, Dhruv weaponisation are waiting financial clearance.

5. 500 T90 ordered, 118Mk1A tells the story.

INS arihant and Arighat were ordered and placed in UPA era. Current NDA had no role in that. Moreover ordered for 3 more boomers were too cleared in UPa era.

I have a friend owning a start up who works in defence. So there is no need convincing me that this govt has been great in defence spending. Private companies are literally bleeding without orders, and yet Modi comes and asks for make in India aatmanirubhar and he will come with another fancy name in next 2 years and yet will order nothing. You need to convince them why orders is not being placed and why our armed forces are not even provided money to pay for already signed projects.
I see you guys are latching on to big ticket items. There are a lot of small ticket items which matter as much.
I see huge improvements at airbases during NDA era based on Google map satellite pictures.
Now you do not see aircrafts parked in the open. Earlier you could see even high value Su-30 parked in the open. Just giving you one example.

There are many but cannot be written.

India has a lot of tanks, guns etc. of older generation. Even upgrades and proper maintenance can make a huge difference in many cases.

Issue is not if a program started in UPA. Issue is how well and with what speed it is executed.

I am very impressed with the progress in LCA Tejas. Though deliveries are slow, the work on making Tejas relevant in today's threat environment is fast. A Mig-21 replacement is no longer relevant today. You need a fighter better (at least at par) than adversary.

One can argue slow pace of artillery acquisitions. This is due to lack of capacities in Indian industry; as well as limited budget. But remember even older artillery pieces are not junk. These can be effective if spares are available. Many things are dependent on good management.
 
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Sehwag213

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We can't even embaraas the Chinese with 16 dead bodies passed and people are getting high with 100 PLA soldiers killed without even questioning the number. Even pla won't be able to suppress 100 death in this age.
Do you trust China's covid numbers? Because if they can hide or fake that , then they can do anything.
 

garg_bharat

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This thread devolved from one where actual news and discussion was occurring to one where a bunch of idiots come in and say "Bharat Mata ki Jai" and just think that alone brings victory. Absolutely ridiculous. The guy that said Modi is failing by not ordering indigenously is absolutely spot on.
Your argument is BS. Most defence orders are local.

You will see a lot of incremental increase in local orders as capacities develop.

Hardest thing in defence is the capacity of the industry. BJP started with improving OFB and DPSU where it saw potential. Many things have happened which cannot be written here.
 

LondonParisTokyo

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why Brahma chellaney, Ashok swine and pravin swanhey look same?
Actually these people are highly respected in the defense field. They are traditionally right wing strategists. They were expecting to get some strategic role in this current government. That didn't come to fruition for unknown reasons so they are upset about it and is is theorized that some of what they write now is in frustration. However there is no questioning their expertise
 

garg_bharat

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Do you trust China's covid numbers? Because if they can hide or fake that , then they can do anything.
Chinese are big liars. Even China's GDP numbers are highly inflated. Many estimates put China's GDP 30% less than published numbers. China wages are still quite low; except for a few pockets in big cities.

China has developed a great 'export oriented' economy which is able to outperform any other economy. This gives foreigners a highly distorted picture of China's internal conditions.

China is a secretive and repressive society. Life in China is hard. All communist party members of India need to be sent to Chinese factories as workers to see real life in China.
 

fire starter

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Actually these people are highly respected in the defense field. They are traditionally right wing strategists. They were expecting to get some strategic role in this current government. That didn't come to fruition for unknown reasons so they are upset about it and is is theorized that some of what they write now is in frustration. However there is no questioning their expertise
They are highly respected only by porkis. These dalals have a habit of spreading disinformation.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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India cannot buy locally until and unless indian equipments match the standards of western ones (like Tejas did) because Pakistan will always get western weapons China will get Russian weapons India is left with no other option but to invest heavily in millitary research and development to match the standards of Germany France UK and US France is much smaller economy than India there defence budget is much smaller than ours if they can make why not us
 

utubekhiladi

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See. I am starting to get labelled just cos I criticized the govt I had voted for with respect to national security.

Kalyani ones are supposed to have been tested and ordered by now. Infact Saudis are now interested in that and wants them to move there.

Except for 114 Dhanush, nothing has been ordered yet but are still under so called testing for years. There is atags one cleared testing, M777 was supposed to be ordered more through Mahindra. But none came.

As for K9, the premise asking L&T to set up a factory was they were promised follow on orders. I wouldn't set up a damn factory for 100 units. So don't you dare defend this policy.

1. Don't make me laugh on the subs. P75I is still at RFi stage. If you are talking about SSN order, a grand total of 100 crores was sanctioned last year 😂

2. Vishakhapatnam was ordered in 2011 and construction began in 2013.

3. Nilgiris ordered in 2017.

4. 126 orders into 36. Ok. 114 MMRCA still awaiting. Tejas mk1A under negotiation since 2016. Price finalised in early 2019. Final deal awaited since long. 15 LcH, Dhruv weaponisation are waiting financial clearance.

5. 500 T90 ordered, 118Mk1A tells the story.

INS arihant and Arighat were ordered and placed in UPA era. Current NDA had no role in that. Moreover ordered for 3 more boomers were too cleared in UPa era.

I have a friend owning a start up who works in defence. So there is no need convincing me that this govt has been great in defence spending. Private companies are literally bleeding without orders, and yet Modi comes and asks for make in India aatmanirubhar and he will come with another fancy name in next 2 years and yet will order nothing. You need to convince them why orders is not being placed and why our armed forces are not even provided money to pay for already signed projects.

first thing first, lets clear certain misconception. Indian armed forces are very tough customer and hard to please. the Job of the Indian Armed forces is to secure our water, land and Air. for that Indian army will procure the highest quality armaments for its needs regardless of where it is going to come from.

i keep hearing the arguments that India army is not giving orders to local companies.. blah blah..blah blah...

Look... It's not Indian army's responsibilities to supports yesterday's startup companies but rather procure best weapons for it's needs in order to secure our country. at the same time, all the local companies needs to compete globally by proving highest quality weapons. they should not make Indian armed forces as their only targeted customer.

if you don't have a product that you can compete globally with, then you may not get orders from Indian armed forces. Period. if you have a yesterday's startup, then please don't expect Indian army to shower you with orders unless you have globally competitive product.

at the same time, in my opinion, Indian armed forces do support local industries as much as possible. pinaaka, missiles like agni, prahaar etc, dhruvs, dhanush, satellites, radars, etc are some of the finest examples... we can discuss more about this later.

now coming back to your post.

if i have an appetite for 1 briyani then i will order one biryani only. may be i will order an desert too if forced. likewise IA thought it had appetite for 100 k9's so it ordered 100 k9's with options to buy 50 more if required. (the word here is options to buy, not obligation to buy). by the way, IA cannot keep on ordering guns when there is no need.

now L&T needs to compete globally, find different buyers for their guns since it has now setup factory and all. again, don't just sit on laurels and expect Indian army to shower with order every single day. it's not going to happen. L&T knows this too..

you also mentioned that Saudis are interested in kalyani group howitzers? guess what? so is Indian army. Matter of fact, Indian army went one step ahead and started trails at jabalur. has Saudis started user trails? - if yes, then its good for both of us. kalyani guns came into existence just 2-3 years go and Indian army is not going to place order without risk analysis, cost evolution and user trails.

one thing that i am proud of kalyani group is unlike other crybaby private local industries, the kalyani group is trying to compete globally and already trying to make a sale with saudis and some other countries.. kuddos to baba kalyani.. hats off!!!

i listed out some of the ongoing procurement like ships and subs to help you understand that Indian armed forces are actively working on acquiring new ships and stuffs. it seems like you are not interested in facts.

i said, 3 ships from Visakhapatnam class were laid down with names.. an indication that some work is being done in getting new ships. you were talking about INS Visakhapatnam ship itself which started construction around 2013.

same goes for nilgiri class ships

also, if you read my post, i never claimed that BJP order or laid down arihaants. i merely alluded the possibility that this subs are best kept secrets and we probably will never know. instead of reading what i have written.. you decided to bring BJP and UPA into this spit feast.

i would also advise your so called friend to develop a product that can complete globally rather then waiting for orders from Indian armed forces.

I am also not fan off delays like tejas for ex; i agree on that area.

aatmanirubhar concept is not limited to defense sector only. its a wonderful concept which will evolve slowly and progressively. our country is headed in that direction. this will take time to mature.. its not easy like i ate biryani tonight and tomorrow morning i am going to poop it out.
 
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