India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[ARVION]

Okay as I said before I will start the analysis in TAI TFX but not on this page but on the tia tfx page if anyone want to hear please refer to the TAI TFX mokoman asked about it so I will start the detail analysis

 

[JBH22]

Frogfoot and warthog are ideal for CAS and should be with Army Aviation Corps..

That is why the sum paid for Apache could have got us couple of Su 25 squadrons. Porki armoured formation would be mince meat across desert. In Galwan valley these would kick ass. In Afghanistan they operated in similary terrain. Afghan would watch su 25 operate in valley take out their fortified position. Mi 24 would follow in and infantry mop up anything left.

 

[johnq]

Exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China (w/ Guo Wengui & Kyle Bass) | RV Classics
Here is an interview of an exiled Chinese businessman from October 2018 which sheds a light on how the Chinese Communist government basically functions as a mafia. Their ultimate goal is to replace the US dollar and become the world's primary currency, and Coronavirus pandemic, Hong Kong takeover, war with India (both to push India down and get others in line) are all part of a plan to achieve this aim.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

That is why the sum paid for Apache could have got us couple of Su 25 squadrons. Porki armoured formation would be mince meat across desert. In Galwan valley these would kick ass. In Afghanistan they operated in similary terrain. Afghan would watch su 25 operate in valley take out their fortified position. Mi 24 would follow in and infantry mop up anything left.

The su 25 is a 40 year old platform. Why would we want to buy that. The su34 is newer and has better avionics.
The Apaches can do the same job with hellfires, with better accuracy too. They are dedicated CAS platforms. True definition of CAS. An Apache can be a foot soldiers or tanks worst nightmare...
Granted they have a Limited range, but their loiter time is superb for CAS missions...

 

[JBH22]

The su 25 is a 40 year old platform. Why would we want to buy that. The su34 is newer and has better avionics.
The Apaches can do the same job with hellfires, with better accuracy too. They are dedicated CAS platforms. True definition of CAS. An Apache can be a foot soldiers or tanks worst nightmare...
Granted they have a Limited range, but their loiter time is superb for CAS missions...

This is what I believe will kill our budget you don't need always hi tech to do the task. As per various reports you need a subsonic sturdy plane that can take damage and still perform the task, churning max sorties per day. The SU 34 is meant for SEAD and high value targets. The SU 25 as part of army aviation corps can take out armoured formations, troops while taking damage from flak or manpads.note that Russian created an updated variant Su39. Baseline is no chills no thrills.
There is a thread on DFI airpower on cheap many have always advocated this platform to suit our needs. Commendable performance in Afghanistan or Iran.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

This is what I believe will kill our budget you don't need always hi tech to do the task. As per various reports you need a subsonic sturdy plane that can take damage and still perform the task, churning max sorties per day. The SU 34 is meant for SEAD and high value targets. The SU 25 as part of army aviation corps can take out armoured formations, troops while taking damage from flak or manpads.note that Russian created an updated variant Su39. Baseline is no chills no thrills.
There is a thread on DFI airpower on cheap many have always advocated this platform to suit our needs. Commendable performance in Afghanistan or Iran.

But the apaches are designed to do just that. Take out tanks/armoured troops and regular infantry. But with the added advantage that they can maneuver and loiter in mointaineous terrain. That is key. Something that aircrafts can’t do to provide ‘effective’ CAS in such terrain.

I believe the SU25s would be ideal for taking on large tank columns in even terrain. Pakistani theater for example would be ideal for warthogs or su25s.

 

[ARVION]

The su 25 is a 40 year old platform. Why would we want to buy that. The su34 is newer and has better avionics.
The Apaches can do the same job with hellfires, with better accuracy too. They are dedicated CAS platforms. True definition of CAS. An Apache can be a foot soldiers or tanks worst nightmare...
Granted they have a Limited range, but their loiter time is superb for CAS missions...

But the au 34 in more of a taticl bomber and indicator than a true CAS Aircraft's

 

[JBH22]

But the apaches are designed to do just that. Take out tanks/armoured troops and regular infantry. But with the added advantage that they can maneuver and loiter in mointaineous terrain. That is key. Something that aircrafts can’t do to provide ‘effective’ CAS in such terrain.

I believe the SU25s would be ideal for taking on large tank columns in even terrain. Pakistani theater for example would be ideal for warthogs or su25s.

I'm talking about cost factor and quantity, the amount spent for the Apache is mind boggling and performance wise it is incremental imho. If you observe the acquisition pattern it suggest that air force has pre disposition for hi tech which may not always be right. Hypothetically back then if they had not gone for MIG 27 you would still be having Su 25 to perform CAS task.

A plane however will have less hover time on the battlefield but higher payload than a helicopter.

 

[ARVION]

I'm talking about cost factor and quantity, the amount spent for the Apache is mind boggling and performance wise it is incremental imho. If you observe the acquisition pattern it suggest that air force has pre disposition for hi tech which may not always be right. Hypothetically back then if they had not gone for MIG 27 you would still be having Su 25 to perform CAS task.

A plane however will have less hover time on the battlefield but higher payload than a helicopter.

You need to keep the cost low In order to increase the sorties per CAS mission's as you need to be called again and again to support the ground force's

 

[Tridev123]

That is why the sum paid for Apache could have got us couple of Su 25 squadrons. Porki armoured formation would be mince meat across desert. In Galwan valley these would kick ass. In Afghanistan they operated in similary terrain. Afghan would watch su 25 operate in valley take out their fortified position. Mi 24 would follow in and infantry mop up anything left.

I would appreciate if a few clarifications can be made. The Su25 or Su34 were designed for low level CAS operations. The big question mark is - the advent of highly capable Shoulder Fired Anti Aircraft Missile like the Stinger has made low level CAS risky. The Stinger was one of the main reasons why the course of the war changed in Afghanistan. Till then the Mi24/25 helicopter gunships virtually destroyed the Afghan Mujahideen and the Red Army was having the advantage.

How does the Su25/Su34 do its bombing?. Do they use Laser Guided Bombs while flying quite high out of range of shoulder fired SAM's or do they have to descend low to use gravity bombs. Can they use long range PGM's to target while staying safe.
You can sanitise an area of SAM sites but you cannot take out portable shoulder fired surface to air missiles. Such missiles pose the greatest threat to low flying helicopters and planes.
Our losses of aircraft to Manpads in the Kargil War are still fresh in memory. We should not repeat our mistakes.

 

[JBH22]

I would appreciate if a few clarifications can be made. The Su25 or Su34 were designed for low level CAS operations. The big question mark is - the advent of highly capable Shoulder Fired Anti Aircraft Missile like the Stinger has made low level CAS risky. The Stinger was one of the main reasons why the course of the war changed in Afghanistan. Till then the Mi24/25 helicopter gunships virtually destroyed the Afghan Mujahideen and the Red Army was having the advantage.

How does the Su25/Su34 do its bombing?. Do they use Laser Guided Bombs while flying quite high out of range of shoulder fired SAM's or do they have to descend low to use gravity bombs. Can they use long range PGM's to target while staying safe.
You can sanitise an area of SAM sites but you cannot take out portable shoulder fired surface to air missiles. Such missiles pose the greatest threat to low flying helicopters and planes.

Wrong this myth that stinger caused massive losses is fairy tales most of Soviet 333 helicopter losses were due to Chinese HMG. The stinger caused a revision in tactics heat dissipators, flares were added to all choppers and nap of the earth flying tactics were enforced.

For pin point strikes you have Su 30 mki and Mirage 2000. You need a cheap platform that can churn out max sorties per day and take some damage when providing CAS. This plane in Astan took direct stinger hits and came back to base.

 

[ARVION]

I would appreciate if a few clarifications can be made. The Su25 or Su34 were designed for low level CAS operations. The big question mark is - the advent of highly capable Shoulder Fired Anti Aircraft Missile like the Stinger has made low level CAS risky. The Stinger was one of the main reasons why the course of the war changed in Afghanistan. Till then the Mi24/25 helicopter gunships virtually destroyed the Afghan Mujahideen and the Red Army was having the advantage.

How does the Su25/Su34 do its bombing?. Do they use Laser Guided Bombs while flying quite high out of range of shoulder fired SAM's or do they have to descend low to use gravity bombs. Can they use long range PGM's to target while staying safe.
You can sanitise an area of SAM sites but you cannot take out portable shoulder fired surface to air missiles. Such missiles pose the greatest threat to low flying helicopters and planes.
Our losses of aircraft to Manpads in the Kargil War are still fresh in memory. We should not repeat our mistakes.

Both the su 25 can be used for both mission with smart home and dummy Bomb's and while the su 34 role is of a inductor and taticl bombing mission's the aircraft fly at higher speed so less time to react and few atgms and manpads that could target the aircraft flying at low altitude but at higher speed's

 

[scatterStorm]

Sorry if I hurt some one by posting the above comment about the tank's I was just typing what my sister's was telling and she is not a expert on the tank battle's but according to her if the chinis try to engage in Ladakh's the kill ratio's would be 10 - 2 their 10 tanks compared to ours 2 tank's mostly T 72s even with it's ERA's armour's Type 15 will have caustilitiea from 7 kill to manpads and atgm's and a 2 kills to by the

T 72's and T 90's well that could be a possible scaenario's and most important work's would be done by the Spriggean missile's I honestly dont knew why is she instigating on the Spriggean's Missile's

We haven't collated data about there MBRLs and Arty. Our tank formation could be strike by them, which is very effective in disengaging our forward thrust, provided our tanks are not moving much. To sway there attacks, our tank formation must be constantly moving, but the terrain will not allow much of that movement.

This I fear the most.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

I heard somewhere that DRDO is planning to use longbow radar of apache on LCH, LCH is made for high altitude but our army and airforce are using Apaches on Indo China borders maybe because we don’t have enough numbers of our home made LCH . Apaches were meant to be deployed in PUNJAB

 

[Tridev123]

Wrong this myth that stinger caused massive losses is fairy tales most of Soviet 333 helicopter losses were due to Chinese HMG. The stinger caused a revision in tactics heat dissipators, flares were added to all choppers and nap of the earth flying tactics were enforced.

For pin point strikes you have Su 30 mki and Mirage 2000. You need a cheap platform that can churn out max sorties per day and take some damage when providing CAS. This plane in Astan took direct stinger hits and came back to base.

You have not replied to my question about whether the Su25/34 have laser targeting pods and can use laser guided bombs. If the Su25 and Su34 have a self protection suite which can defeat 99% of Manpads then nobody should have any objection to using a low cost bomber for CAS. I am not against using the plane but we should not have a repeat of Kargil losses.

If course the battle between the Self Protection system on planes and helicopters and an adversary designing an VSHORADS to defeat it will continue. Whoever has the technological edge will dominate.

 

[scatterStorm]

View attachment 52025

With two pilons still empty to defend itself from aerial threats. That's a very effective war machine.

 

[ARVION]

We haven't collated data about there MBRLs and Arty. Our tank formation could be strike by them, which is very effective in disengaging our forward thrust, provided our tanks are not moving much. To sway there attacks, our tank formation must be constantly moving, but the terrain will not allow much of that movement.

This I fear the most.

So so we have to emphasizes on the manpads and atgm's and other anti tank missiles does any would knew about the Spriggean missile it's it that effective against the armore's

 

[ARVION]

I heard somewhere that DRDO is planning to use longbow radar of apache on LCH, LCH is made for high altitude but our army and airforce are using Apaches on Indo China borders maybe because we don’t have enough numbers of our home made LCH . Apaches were meant to be deployed in PUNJAB

Not the same but similar function radars specially for the mountainous regions

 

[scatterStorm]

Question to anyone with knowledge on the subject:
Brahmos. How accurate is this platform? Real talk, no jingoistic optimism.

Can this be used for taking out S400 radar systems across the border. I know this is a costly platform and will be used only for precision strikes, but how will this platform perform in mountainous terrain. Does it have a dive down capability?

At @1:02 ... case closed.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

As per Defence Decode, the Indian Navy SSN programme design is very much inspired by the design of the Russian Navy Project 885M Graney class nuclear attack submarines.