India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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Immanuel

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MY homies, nothing will happen till China or their low life paid hookers in Pak fire the first shot. Meanwhile, our forces are in 24/7 prep mode while the Chinki economic isolation continues. We should know by now that the Indian people by and large are a peaceful people who do not provoke war and that isn't going to change.

There are ways to bleed the dragon without ever firing a shot and let's do that first. If half the major countries in the world start to drop the Chinks and their garbage products/services ricky tick the gradual death spiral will begin.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Even without Rafales and S-400 Indian army is far and way more capable than just defending the borders just because chinese over hype their millitary prowess doesn’t mean they’re superior to US millitary they cannot win a war against India not even if They get full support from Pakistan and Pakistan will loose territory to India in two front war history is the witness whenever there has been war between India and Pakistan India has gained territory and Pakistan has loosed territory
 

Sanglamorre

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No, OUR LAND is the whole Aksai Hind....
gray zone also falls into that.........
No, GoI lacks spins because they don't even have the courage to mention 'Chinese' in their speeches.....
Do you expect Modi to go to war one fine day in a Mann ki Baat speech? It would need public social engineering.....
[/QUOTE]
Just to highlight how baseless your arguments are - Modi did not mention "Pakistan" in his speech post Pulwama and both the surgical strike and Balakot happened "one fine day", (incidentally the govt has done a lot more "public social engineering" this time round, as the multifaceted China ban shows)

Again my questions remain: do you think "courage" means the govt listens to internet Rambos like you and rushes into war without plans or preparation?

You kept repeating nonsense about having "lost land" - and when countered, you start blabbering about Aksai Chin.
Is this the Aksai Chin thread dating from 1962? Or about Chini intrusion at the LAC this year?

So, to sum up, relevant to the current LAC incident being discussed - no we haven't "LOST LAND" (other than a grey area where China already had a road)
The land LOST was in 1948 (GB), 1962 (Aksai Chin), 1990s (Chini land grab), and the political agents and mindset involved have no relation to those currently in power, else we wouldn't have an "incident" at Galwan", the Chinis would have just walked in.
[/QUOTE]
GoI didn't start a war with Pakistan. They did a strike, then didn't retaliate when they attacked India with their bloody military, that's what happened. You don't need social engineering to back down. And, Porkistan doesn't need that, it has been done for generations so it's already always there. You can punish Pakis for anything, any time and public will back you.


Where do you think Galwan, Pagong etc is? Aksai Chin. We had access to F4-5 along with Chinese, we have lost it now. It's loss of territory.

And there's something I want to say about the "but but '62" crowd. And the land we lost in 62, it is still our land. We will have to retrieve it. "We already lost it in 62" only shifts responsibility to retrieve it, and kick the can down the road. Who is going to do that? Some mythical future all powerful Ubermensch govt? Is that not what this govt is? If this govt shirks responsibility for even losing access to areas we could patrol before, they're not going to receive Aksai Hind.

And that's a tragedy. We can't keep foisting that responsibility to our later generations. Our predecessors did that, but we can't keep hoping for this mythical govt that will finally do this. Right now, we're the strongest we have been since independence. We have the largest thumping majority in decades. If not this govt and people, then who? If not us, who?

We have a duty as citizens and as government. Yes, a traitorous Indian government lost that land in past. Yes, we can keep invoking it in arguments for some points. But we can't use it as shields for our current failures, nor as an excuse to not keep going.

And if this govt and people isn't going to, I'm not sure which one will.
 

HindaviSwarajya

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Currently there is no answer to s400 if you have one give it. We don’t even have an allies China has 2 allies prepared to fight with them against India.
What are geniuses doing about that?
I think the brahmos fired from sukhois with 400 km range will be difficult to tackle even for s400 due to its speed. Unless they have kept it well beyond 400 kms from lac and if that is the case we can use iaf to take out their forward posts .
 

cereal killer

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Even without Rafales and S-400 Indian army is far and way more capable than just defending the borders just because chinese over hype their millitary prowess doesn’t mean they’re superior to US millitary they cannot win a war against India not even if They get full support from Pakistan it’s a fact
Dude at first you should first decide who you are comparing. US & China heck there is nobody on planet earth that can match US armed forces. On the other hand both India & China are powerful in their own way both can't put all their resources on LAC. War is not as easy as it seems. It can go either way between India & China. It is a battle of equals.
 

A chauhan

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I think the brahmos fired from sukhois with 400 km range will be difficult to tackle even for s400 due to its speed. Unless they have kept it well beyond 400 kms from lac and if that is the case we can use iaf to take out their forward posts .
And Brahmos is terrain hugging missile as well which by nature is difficult to be intercepted.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Dude at first you should first decide who you are comparing. US & China heck there is nobody on planet earth that can match US armed forces. On the other hand both India & China are powerful in their own way both can't put all their resources on LAC. War is not as easy as it seems. It can go either way between India & China. It is a battle of equals.
Even without Rafales and S-400 Indian army is far and way more capable than just defending the borders just because chinese over hype their millitary prowess doesn’t mean they’re superior to US millitary they cannot win a war against India not even if They get full support from Pakistan it’s a fact
If war remains confined to Tibbet theatre India will definitely gain territory and Chinese will suffer casualties huge enough to withdraw from Tibbet PLAN does have quantitative advantage over IN but with USN and other smaller countries like Taiwan Vietnam Japan South Korea having Disputes with China it’s almost impossible for them (Chinese)to counter IN even when they’ve much larger navy than India
 

airtel

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Even without Rafales and S-400 Indian army is far and way more capable than just defending the borders just because chinese over hype their millitary prowess doesn’t mean they’re superior to US millitary they cannot win a war against India not even if They get full support from Pakistan and Pakistan will loose territory to India in two front war history is the witness whenever there has been war between India and Pakistan India has gained territory and Pakistan has loosed territory


But only Indians are running from Piller to post to buy weapons on emergency basis Chinese are not.
That shows poor planning by Indian officials .
 

Indrajit

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Emperor Xi reinvents Chinese Checkers: Only CPC Wins
28 June 2020
Getty

The current violent confrontation between India and China in east Ladakh along the Line of Actual Control should come as a surprise to none. This was inevitable. An inexorable chain of events was set in motion in 2017 when New Delhi rejected Beijing’s imperial invitation to the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) event presided over by President Xi Jinping. A second rude rebuff followed later in the summer of that year when India stood up to China’s efforts to reorganise Himalayan political geography on the Doklam plateau. India must be prepared to strongly repel the backlash from Beijing on our mountains, in our waters and through our digital platforms.
The Indian commentariat is needlessly agonising over the drivers of the latest Chinese actions. Let us stop theorising and be bold enough to accept that China is just being itself. India has made decisions like independent nations do as an exercise of their sovereignty. To argue otherwise would be tantamount to ignoring the sum total of Beijing’s behaviour during the ‘Made in China’ pandemic: The acceleration of territorial revisionism in the South China Sea; the subjugation of Hong Kong through the stoutly contested national security law; repeated violations of Taiwanese airspace; heightened naval aggression around Japan’s Senkaku Islands; and its most recent encroachment in Nepal.
There is a pattern to this madness; a reason for this seemingly inexplicable restlessness.
In Jiang Zemin’s 2002 report to the 16th Party Congress, the Communist Party of China (CPC) presciently foresaw a 20-year “period of strategic opportunity” for China – linked to its entry into the WTO and America’s misguided interventions in the Middle East that enabled Beijing to play a deft game of Chinese Checkers — and build national power. Emperor Xi, anointed to office for life with a heavenly mandate, is now exercising that power as a counterpoise to the diminishing clout of American influence, and the weakening resolve of a wavering EU and unsure Europe. This is the moment for the Xi Dynasty (like the Mao Gang in another era) to take charge of the wheel and steer China to its centennial objective of world domination by 2049.
The new version of Chinese exceptionalism shaped and directed under Xi’s tutelage is linked to China’s past identity, largely a product of myth-making. It has willed itself into believing that it does not need to work within the matrix of international laws, rules and norms. It has decided that the time when China would “hide and bide” its motivations and capabilities is past.
The new version of Chinese exceptionalism shaped and directed under Xi’s tutelage is linked to China’s past identity, largely a product of myth-making. It has willed itself into believing that it does not need to work within the matrix of international laws, rules and norms
The CPC is now externalising the authoritarian idiosyncrasies it wields at home. Medievalism is the hallmark of Chinese external assessments. This is evident from its insatiable urge to redraw boundaries as an adventure sport and from its estimation of its population (as well as others) as mere fodder. This behaviour is exemplified in China’s ‘hostage diplomacy’ with Canada. Chen Weihua, the European Union bureau chief of the China Daily, offered an unsympathetic glimpse into how China views the issue: “People often fail to note that Meng is worth 10 Kovrig and Spavor, if not more.”
Supplementing this behaviour are two critical tools: an expansionist military and modern methods of engagement. Xi has overseen what is arguably the most wide-ranging modernisation of the People’s Liberation Army: purging it of corrupt or disloyal officials, ensuring its transition to a capable and expeditionary naval force; undertaking crucial administrative and organisational reforms; and reaffirming its absolute loyalty to the CPC and its ideology. In parallel, Xi has presided over China’s long-term efforts to securitise and weaponise global supply chains, flows of technology, finance and data, and institutions of global governance. The all-pervasive Chinese state is but an instrument for the benefit of the CPC.
Time and again India has confronted these realities at 14,000 feet above sea level and soon it may have to defend its blue waters against the rising crimson tides. At one level, Beijing is merely attempting to ‘remind’ India of Asia’s geopolitical hierarchy—that failure to kow-tow to the Middle Kingdom carries consequences. More worryingly, Beijing may have concluded from India’s history that heightened aggression along the LAC will invariably bring India to the negotiating table—that India will grant China greater political concessions, market access or economic bargains as the price for “peace and tranquillity”. The Indian state will have to dispel and disprove this Chinese assumption.
China is also using this moment to send a message to its other neighbours in the East and South China Sea. While a similar escalation in those waters by China carries the risk of drawing in American military response, the attempt to reorganise boundaries on the Himalayas conveys the same intent. China is demonstrating to the world the limitations of decaying American power without having to actually confront it. In its neo-Confucian assessment an Indian capitulation may signal the final rites of Pax Americana. Beijing may be in for a surprise on both counts, provided countries are able to correctly assess the deeper import of recent Chinese actions.
China is also using this moment to send a message to its other neighbours in the East and South China Sea. While a similar escalation in those waters by China carries the risk of drawing in American military response, the attempt to reorganise boundaries on the Himalayas conveys the same intent
India must begin with the daunting acknowledgement that the world’s second largest economy is its primary long-term geopolitical and geoeconomic rival. It must also internalise that it will not be able to negotiate its way into any favourable outcomes with China. While nations must talk and unofficial summits like Wuhan and Mamallapuram are important, India must have the singular purpose of investing in and developing robust political, economic, digital and military tools that should, for the short to medium-term, be able to protect territory and rebuff the northern marauders.
For too long, Delhi has been hesitant to impose costs for China’s military adventurism, preferring instead to settle matters diplomatically. In doing so, India has failed to realise that while Xi’s China is irrational, it is not an entirely unpredictable actor. It sees capitulation and a preference for negotiation as a sign of weakness. Delhi must be creative about how it imposes costs for this behaviour—creating unconventional and asymmetric options that help in ‘area denial’ operations in the Himalayas. Accelerating roads and infrastructure is one part, building emplacements is the second. The politics of ‘sharp’ presence (physical) is the only vocabulary understood in those terrains.
For too long, Delhi has been hesitant to impose costs for China’s military adventurism, preferring instead to settle matters diplomatically. In doing so, India has failed to realise that while Xi’s China is irrational, it is not an entirely unpredictable actor
The adage ‘it is the economy stupid’ has never been more relevant. Obsession with building India’s economic heft must override all other considerations. China’s rise was underwritten by its strategic co-option of globalisation. In an era where global flows of data are outstripping trade in goods, and where technology supply chains are being jealously guarded, India’s goal should be to emerge as one of the centres of the topography of digital globalisation. India did well to reject the BRI; it must now ensure that it rejects BRI’s digital avatar as well.`
The banning of Chinese goods may be important signalling but will have little impact on the northern neighbour due to the asymmetry in trade. Zealous protection of India’s digital backbone and networks (5G) and billion people plus digital platforms from Chinese encroachment and intrusion, either openly or by stealth, must be the clear-eyed strategic objective. But India cannot do this alone. And here is where its own period of strategic opportunity begins. In a powerful dissent against the Xi regime, Tsinghua University professor Xu Zhangrun laments the consequences of Beijing’s global assertiveness: “Instead of embracing a [global] community,” he writes, “China is increasingly isolating itself from it.” The challenge for India is to capture this moment – to shed (self) righteous theories of foreign policy in favour of pragmatic, even cynical, partnerships that bolster its economy, provide it with technology, arm its military and support its global ambitions.
That India is still debating Non-Alignment as a choice is a sad reflection of its inability to grasp the reality that stares it in the face, its failure to read the writing on the wall, its myopic disregard for what the future holds. When Non-Alignment was conceived it was an attempt by the leadership of the day to carve out a space for India in a world dominated by two superpowers. Does its propagation allow similar space to India now? Or does a string of strategic partnerships (not of the variety that exists in the dozens) serve India’s interests better?
That India is still debating Non-Alignment as a choice is a sad reflection of its inability to grasp the reality that stares it in the face, its failure to read the writing on the wall, its myopic disregard for what the future holds
Indeed, the time for hiding behind ‘strategic ambiguity’ is over. This stands true for New Delhi’s involvement with international institutions as well. How will India take advantage of its seat in the UN Security Council, its upcoming presidency of the G-20, its chairmanship of the WHO, its position in the Global AI Alliance, or its leadership of the International Solar Alliance? India now increasingly finds a place on the high table of global governance. Question is, can it make the most of these arenas? Can Delhi marshal its diplomatic resources to convince the international community that events in the Himalayas carry global consequences, and that silence now, only emboldens China’s perverse great power ambitions in other geographies and domains? Will New Delhi develop the appetite to call out China on Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang and Hong Kong in international forums? And can it incubate a discursive space that will challenge ‘wolf warrior’ propaganda?
The views expressed above belong to the author(s).
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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But only Indians are running from Piller to post to buy weapons on emergency basis Chinese are not.
That shows poor planning by Indian officials .
Because no one except the Russians wants to sell weapons to Chinese even Russia doesn’t want to sell them weapons but because of their poor economy and American sanctions they’re doing it
 

Indrajit

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Government may have documented legal reasons to block TikTok since we're a democracy. Companies have the right to appeal but the ban will be revoked only when government's demands are met and TikTok make notable changes to their platform, including shifting all operations from China to India.
National security has been cited as a reason, that pretty much cooks Tiktok’s goose. Very limited legal remedies available. There has to be a government decision to repeal the ban, unlikely in the short term anyways.
 
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cereal killer

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If war remains confined to Tibbet theatre India will definitely gain territory and Chinese will suffer casualties huge enough to withdraw from Tibbet PLAN does have quantitative advantage over IN but with USN and other smaller countries like Taiwan Vietnam Japan South Korea having Disputes with China it’s almost impossible for them (Chinese)to counter IN even when they’ve much larger navy than India
There are no ifs & buts in war. Chinese Indigenous weapon industry is still much better than ours & can produces decent enough arms at a much quicker rate. Liberation of Tibet means full fledged war. Without external help it is not possible. We can call our Economy good bye if we are willing to fight a large scale conflict with China. In my view only a small scale border war like 1962 is in our interests, push back the Chinese & give them bloody nose without suffering much damage. Send a clear message to CCP & Hans don't mess with India.
 

Sanglamorre

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so high chances of 'back door's and easter eggs.
Oh yes, definitely. A couple of apps even got caught for having one. I think the most recent was some popular Chinese app that was copying contents of texts, clipboards from iphones.

Heck, even the hardwares sometimes have been found to have backdoors.
 

ninja hattori

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check how many executive orders have the courts shot down in last 25 years..

The ban will stay as long as the govt wills it.
There is no court that can stay this order for obvious reasons..
exactly, court has already examined 69a with section 66 in Shreya Singhal case

SECTION 69A AND THE BLOCKING RULES
The Court was not as readily convinced by the arguments on the constitutionality of Section 69A of the IT Act and the Blocking Rules. The petitioners contended that Sections 69A and the Blocking Rules neither provided the opportunity for a pre-decisional hearing nor necessary procedural safeguards such as the requirement of a search warrant and the ability to make an application to Court to appeal the blocking order.
However, unlike in the case of Section 66A, the Court was of the view that Section 69A is narrowly drafted and has inbuilt safeguards. Blocking can be carried out only when the Central Government is satisfied that it is necessary and the restrictions sought to be imposed fall squarely within the reasonable restrictions to freedom of speech and expression under Article 19(2). It cannot be carried out without the approval of a committee that, at least, theoretically would take into account the views of all affected parties. The Court seemed to draw particular comfort from the fact that the reasons for the blocking were required to be recorded in writing so that they could be challenged if need be in a writ petition.
It is unfortunate that the Court did not see fit to evaluate for itself whether provisions set out in the Blocking Rules, are applied in practice as described. Anecdotally, it would appear that at least some of the blocking orders issued recently did not take the trouble to seek the views of the originator or even the intermediary. Presumably, after this judgment, writ remedies would be maintainable for all such breaches in protocol.
 

prasadr14

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exactly, court has already examined 69a with section 66 in Shreya Singhal case

SECTION 69A AND THE BLOCKING RULES

The Court was not as readily convinced by the arguments on the constitutionality of Section 69A of the IT Act and the Blocking Rules. The petitioners contended that Sections 69A and the Blocking Rules neither provided the opportunity for a pre-decisional hearing nor necessary procedural safeguards such as the requirement of a search warrant and the ability to make an application to Court to appeal the blocking order.

However, unlike in the case of Section 66A, the Court was of the view that Section 69A is narrowly drafted and has inbuilt safeguards. Blocking can be carried out only when the Central Government is satisfied that it is necessary and the restrictions sought to be imposed fall squarely within the reasonable restrictions to freedom of speech and expression under Article 19(2). It cannot be carried out without the approval of a committee that, at least, theoretically would take into account the views of all affected parties. The Court seemed to draw particular comfort from the fact that the reasons for the blocking were required to be recorded in writing so that they could be challenged if need be in a writ petition.

It is unfortunate that the Court did not see fit to evaluate for itself whether provisions set out in the Blocking Rules, are applied in practice as described. Anecdotally, it would appear that at least some of the blocking orders issued recently did not take the trouble to seek the views of the originator or even the intermediary. Presumably, after this judgment, writ remedies would be maintainable for all such breaches in protocol.
It also depends on WHY they are being blocked.

the govt would go with..
1. Data security breach
2. National Security
3. Economic sanctions against a country in war like state with us

Courts would find it extremely hard to over-rule,
I wouldn't be surprised if SC drags it & just favors the govt.

It might even set a precedent.

China taking us to WTO is even more preposterous,
They would get mauled there.
 

Sanglamorre

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they are,

for eg MI phones have fb service by default installed not as app but android essential component. DATA MINING.
Especially the bloatware that they keep bundling. GoI can even neuter the Chinese cellphones by working with engineers to get a stock Android version and then forcing all users to change to that. But that's probably a bit... Too much work due to the hundreds of models they'll need to configure it for, so instead an app that counters that would help.
 

ninja hattori

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It also depends on WHY they are being blocked.

the govt would go with..
1. Data security breach
2. National Security
3. Economic sanctions against a country in war like state with us

Courts would find it extremely hard to over-rule,
I wouldn't be surprised if SC drags it & just favors the govt.

It might even set a precedent.

China taking us to WTO is even more preposterous,
They would get mauled there.
The Government can order website-blocks if it is satisfied of the necessity or expedience for this on the basis of (any of) six reasons. These reasons are:
  1. Sovereignty and integrity of India,
  2. Defense of India,
  3. Security of the State,
  4. Friendly relations with foreign states,
  5. Public order,
  6. Preventing incitement to the commission of any cognizable offence relating to above.
If the Central government is convinced it has a valid reason, then it must follow the blocking procedure set out in the Blocking Rules, which were notified on 27 October 2009.
and it stated in the order itself SOVEREIGNITY of INDIA, and as Chinese apps are required to share data by CHINESE LAW . So its check mate.
 
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