India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[shuvo@y2k10]

sir ji, you are mixing engineers with scientist. my rant in that post was about giving our scientist, the management responsibilities...

also, you are quote is out of context. here is the full text

This data indicates that scientists constitute the largest segment of top performing CEOs and are remunerated greatly for their leadership. If you want to be not only be a CEO, but a top performing CEO – then the answer is right here: develop a scientific mind by studying a STEM discipline.

stem discipline is different then being a scientist and is not the same

"7 of the top 10 Fortune 500 companies are also run by Engineers " - Yes, but it does not say also run by Scientist.

other multinational companies who operates in India like amazon, walmart, ikea, etc also deals with the same sarkari mindset.
local companies like mahindra, airtel, reliance, L&T etc they also deal with the same sarkari mindset

both local and international companies make good revenues. they can deal with sarkari mindset because they know how to..and they have right people at right management level.

now, i do agree our sarkari mindset is one of the core reason for our defense related problems. i fully agree there... but its not the only cause.. there are other reasons as well.

so the question begs, why drdo cannot deal with sarkari mindset when other companies can? because we lack dedicated people to oversee management process

for instance, drdo scientist, the best of best mind of india.. should be supervising all projects, providing consultation to junior teams, providing expertise to the project, participate and solve technical problems etc .. thats where his time needs to go, rather then focusing on management.

the more time a scientist spends on management of things, the less time he spends on his science project. --
change my mind.. i will wait..

In DRDO, scientist positions B, C etc. have maximum strength filled by B.Tech engineers, based on GATE scores. Hence "scientist" position in DRDO or ISRO does does not mean only those who studied in general science stream (BSc, MSc etc.).
For example G.Sateesh Reddy is an Electronics (ECE) Engineer, Avinash Chandar is an Electrical Engineer.
After recruitment, based on seniority and performance they get promotion to higher scientist posts. Also, there is a good tie-up between IISC/IITs/ Anna University etc. and DRDO/ISRO, which allows mid-level scientists to pursue MTech and PhD from them, while being employed.
Another point to note that most work in DRDO/ISRO is engineering, development of prototype and systems and not fundamental scientific studies (which is the role of academicians). Hence these scientist do not engage in science projects (like LHC, Astronomy etc.).
Hence the Directors to the various labs are chosen among these "scientists" with technical background is mostly chosen

DRDO Recruitment 2020: 167 vacancies of scientists ‘B’ on offer, check details

Interested and eligible applicants can apply for the positions online at rac.gov.in on or before July 10, 2020.

www.hindustantimes.com

.

 

[another_armchair]

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

2.5 km hai. Some places it says 5 km range.

There is a minimum and maximum range of engagement.

What happens when the enemy breaches the minimum range of engagement?
Hint - You drop your weapon system and run for your life.

If min engagement range is 200 m for foreign system, it is 400m for the NAG.
Now go figure how long it would take for a rampaging tank to cover 400m and 200m?

The Prospina is on a heavy carrier and has a minimum engagement range of 400m, not 200m.

Sit down with someone who is ATGM qualified and ask them the pros and cons of min engagement range.

With Prospina though, you get more time to abandon the Namica carrier and run for your life

 

[Assassin 2.0]

114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years.
There were three incidents of shell striking the barrel of the Dhanush during trials. Did IA reject them? They told them to find the root cause and fix it, and fixed, it was

BS logic what is the meaning of testing if they cannot find flaws in the first place?
Multiple countries in the world developed products and test them within a year or so and then sell those products to markets like india. But in india we will test the products for next 100 years.
These so called battle tested systems always come with extra tax OEM off course milks out the profit from us keep buying foreign made junk and keep crying we don't have the numbers.
And people here think that we are perfectionist sir we are not our equipment are very old and of soviet era Russian equipment which we import most of the time faces many issues.

Waiting for the best doesn’t work, we will take what you produce, Vice Chief of Army assures industry

Indian Army: Waiting for the best doesn’t work, we will take what you produce, Vice Chief of Army assures industry - The Economic Times

Referring to a long standing dilemma for the domestic defence development ecosystem, Lt Gen MM Naravane said that `best cannot be the enemy of the `good and unless systems are inducted and used in the field, they cannot be improved to global standards.

www.google.com

Army also knows this but don't implement it.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

India should now recognize Taiwan. Its best the solution. Gives a very straight message. If you throw a stone then you get a stone thrown at you too.

 

[Longewala]

Hmmm... MPATGM with 400m as minimum range ... ha ha ha... and would get halluciniated in desert heat....
Army officers are corrupt that they conspire with temperature...

And you want 1960's GSQR to pass in 2020...

And yet those army officers were happy with masses of t-90 tanks whose electronics puked in the desert heat and have a thoroughly outdated design concept.

We could, of course kick off the desi atgm program with a very ambitious albeit partly lacking system - there are ways to manage by forming composite teams with konkurs launchers etc - and then sum for improved products in round 2.

Or we can decide we will accept indigenous products only if they are at par with the best in the world, an approach if applied universally would have killed off our Space, ballistic missile, Nuclear, nuclear submarine and Naval ship building programs.

 

[fire starter]

There should a particular time period for trials of indigenous weapons.
1 yr for developmental trial and another 1 yr for user trial so within 2 yrs all the trials should be done and if there are no issues then orders should be placed immediately.
I am pissed off by seeing the weapon in trials forever.

 

[garg_bharat]

My fear is that GOI is still planning for a short war which I think is illogical. The planning needs to take into account wars lasting six months or more. We are up against a very difficult adversary. We need to change our thought process.

 

[fire starter]

Moreover many indigenous weapons are still rotting in labs awaiting for trials. why the delay? Are armed forces looking for 'muhurat'

 

[another_armchair]

BS logic what is the meaning of testing if they cannot find flaws in the first place?
Multiple countries in the world developed products and test them within a year or so and then sell those products to markets like india. But in india we will test the products for next 100 years.
These so called battle tested systems always come with extra tax OEM off course milks out the profit from us keep buying foreign made junk and keep crying we don't have the numbers.
And people here think that we are perfectionist sir we are not our equipment are very old and of soviet era Russian equipment which we import most of the time faces many issues.

Waiting for the best doesn’t work, we will take what you produce, Vice Chief of Army assures industry

Indian Army: Waiting for the best doesn’t work, we will take what you produce, Vice Chief of Army assures industry - The Economic Times

Referring to a long standing dilemma for the domestic defence development ecosystem, Lt Gen MM Naravane said that `best cannot be the enemy of the `good and unless systems are inducted and used in the field, they cannot be improved to global standards.

www.google.com

Army also knows this but don't implement it.

BS logic? LOL... failures during testing is BS logic?
Asking the supplier to fix failures is BS logic?

Will you buy a car whose brakes fail during a test drive? That's BS logic you are peddling SIR.

Who is waiting for the best? Make a system that doesn't have a high rate of failure and doesn't degrade massively during use. The INSAS is one such junk which is good for plinking at the range but 9 out of 10 will fail/jam during an intense firefight.

Given 2 rifles, if INSAS fails 9/10 and other rifle fails 7/10, I would still take the 7/10 because I will still have 3 men engaging with the enemy while I try to fix my shit.

During '65 war, a lot of officers chose to carry the SLR than their sten guns.
Why?
Because the SLR was more reliable than the sten gun.

Same with Paras in Sri Lanka. They preferred the SLR to the Sterlings/Sten guns. Not all of them had AK's. They were fighting LTTE cadre who were armed with AK's yet we fought.
Give them slingshots.
They will fight to the last breath but those slingshots should work.

Hope you make an effort to try and understand the points put forth.

 

[ladder]

SPyDer System delayed by 4 years due to Tatra Scandal- No problem.
LRSAM/MRSAM delayed by IAI by 4 years- No problem.
Indian system delayed- Bloody incompetent Desi Scientist delaying for his fat pension and LTC.

 

[Sanatani]

We are no less than China? You must remember that in the present day PLA, 80% are conscripts with compulsory service for 4 years. They are kids from single child families who are pampered and more into computer games than facing the rigours of soldering. They have ZERO experience of fighting in mountainous terrain and no match for the well trained battle hardened mountain troops of the Indian Army.

The PLA has not fought a war since their rout by a much smaller but committed Vietnamese army in 1979 who sent them packing in less than a month. They got a bloody nose at Nathula in 1967 when 400 of them were killed by the Indian Army and scores of their gun positions destroyed. Somdorungchu in AP in 1987 was another embarrassment for them when the Chinese withdrew without a whimper with the PLA's tails tucked firmly between their hind legs!

So please don't say that we are no less than China. We are way ahead! Period!

My bad. If we are way ahead as you say sir ,each and every Indian is very happy and proud of our defense forces.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Guys, help me understand something.

So the airfields in Tibet are ill-conducive to taking off with full payload. So, what if Chinese jets took off from the closest airstrip that lets them take off with full armaments, and along with a mid air tanker. The tanker pumps fuel into them over Tibet, or right before entering engagement territory, and then lands on some Tibetan airstrip. They don't have the fuel loaded into them so they can take off and return to its base in plains.

The fighters however have full fuel, as well as full weapons load. Is this what the Chinese are aiming for?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

BS logic? LOL... failures during testing is BS logic?
Asking the supplier to fix failures is BS logic?

Will you buy a car whose brakes fail during a test drive? That's BS logic you are peddling SIR.

Who is waiting for the best? Make a system that doesn't have a high rate of failure and doesn't degrade massively during use. The INSAS is one such junk which is good for plinking at the range but 9 out of 10 will fail/jam during an intense firefight.

Given 2 rifles, if INSAS fails 9/10 and other rifle fails 7/10, I would still take the 7/10 because I will still have 3 men engaging with the enemy while I try to fix my shit.

During '65 war, a lot of officers chose to carry the SLR than their sten guns.
Why?
Because the SLR was more reliable than the sten gun.

Same with Paras in Sri Lanka. They preferred the SLR to the Sterlings/Sten guns. Not all of them had AK's. They were fighting LTTE cadre who were armed with AK's yet we fought.
Give them slingshots.
They will fight to the last breath but those slingshots should work.

Hope you make an effort to try and understand the points put forth.

Past past past all we talked about is past we are in future.
Mig-21 crash like fly coming down from sky did that mean we stopped buying Russian aircrafts?
Or we stopped purchasing of other Russian junk which always fails? Such as T-90 or amazing Mig-27 which were forced to retire sooner and had engine issues? Even the British L85 underperformed gun but that didn't stopped them from supporting other equipment of their industry.

Sirji asking manufacturer to fix the product is not BS logic but doing idiotic testing for years is. you said that army placed small order for 114 guns for further testing what's the logic behind that? Most of the professional militaries are able to test weapons within span of 1 year and then sell them to market like india.

 

[ARVION]

Guys, help me understand something.

So the airfields in Tibet are ill-conducive to taking off with full payload. So, what if Chinese jets took off from the closest airstrip that lets them take off with full armaments, and along with a mid air tanker. The tanker pumps fuel into them over Tibet, or right before entering engagement territory, and then lands on some Tibetan airstrip. They don't have the fuel loaded into them so they can take off and return to its base in plains.

The fighters however have full fuel, as well as full weapons load. Is this what the Chinese are aiming for?

But they have to use bases located at eastern Tibetan or siachen or even UAR but it's is a logistic nightmare and Chinese dont have that many air tankers so to sustain that many sorties is a nightmare for PLAAF's so still they are still at disadvantage's

 

[another_armchair]

~4900 shells fired from Dhanush. Cleared all trials. Should I create a battle with our neighbors to make it battle proven?
Original plan was 114+300.
When did the trials wind up? And when was the indent placed?

You tell me when trials concluded and when bulk production clearance was given to GCF Kanpur?

First phase of trials began in 2016.
Last round of user exploitation trials ended in 2018.
Orders were placed in 2019. Kapiche?

How is Army to be blamed for the delay?

Yes, M-777 has muzzle break issue, old bofors also has muzzle break issue but IA must place bulk orders so all the ordered guns face the same issue. Arey bhai, at least check if its within acceptable norms or not. Its our baby after all. Try to fix what can be fixed. Isn't it worth a try?

 

[A chauhan]

Read above statement of Chinese mouthpiece. They came to capture Indian land and now they say that PLA is capable of defending china. I like this transformation of china from an angry dragon to wet cat showing its capability to defend. Ye dar muje Accha laga. Mogembo khush hua.

To be honest Global Times articles seems like R...Rona after being fukced up. Immature editors are working for GT and it's apparent by blind exaggerated chest thumping GT articles reading which even Paki dogs wont be scared.

When you have too much of inferiority complex, you try to behave like superior race to hide the inferiority. These 5 ft pale dog eater are inferior race. They try to behave as superior.

I liked it

I am sad to see that Indian Babu scientists can't even develop an Assault Rifle in such a long time, I mean it's not a rocket science. An assault rifle is the most important weapon in close to mid range combats and its accuracy and better characteristics increase confidence of soldiers which creates winning difference. Govt must look after this matter.

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Completely off the topic but how many AMRAAM did the pakis fire at the su30..!?
A link would be appreciated

 

[AMCA]

Guys, help me understand something.

So the airfields in Tibet are ill-conducive to taking off with full payload. So, what if Chinese jets took off from the closest airstrip that lets them take off with full armaments, and along with a mid air tanker. The tanker pumps fuel into them over Tibet, or right before entering engagement territory, and then lands on some Tibetan airstrip. They don't have the fuel loaded into them so they can take off and return to its base in plains.

The fighters however have full fuel, as well as full weapons load. Is this what the Chinese are aiming for?

PLAAF operates very small number of Il-78M MIDAS. They have no option but to operate from airbases located in Tibet.

 

[Knowitall]

BS logic? LOL... failures during testing is BS logic?
Asking the supplier to fix failures is BS logic?

Will you buy a car whose brakes fail during a test drive? That's BS logic you are peddling SIR.

Who is waiting for the best? Make a system that doesn't have a high rate of failure and doesn't degrade massively during use. The INSAS is one such junk which is good for plinking at the range but 9 out of 10 will fail/jam during an intense firefight.

Given 2 rifles, if INSAS fails 9/10 and other rifle fails 7/10, I would still take the 7/10 because I will still have 3 men engaging with the enemy while I try to fix my shit.

During '65 war, a lot of officers chose to carry the SLR than their sten guns.
Why?
Because the SLR was more reliable than the sten gun.

Same with Paras in Sri Lanka. They preferred the SLR to the Sterlings/Sten guns. Not all of them had AK's. They were fighting LTTE cadre who were armed with AK's yet we fought.
Give them slingshots.
They will fight to the last breath but those slingshots should work.

Hope you make an effort to try and understand the points put forth.

Overall the points you state are right a product should be tested first and it's issues ironed out then inducted.

But the problem starts when you realize this is the case it when it comes to indigenous weapons.

To give you an example MRSAM was never battle tested or even properly tested when we decided to place a huge order for it.

And we also sent them back because we found some flaws in it and they had to rectify it and give it back.

The next example is T-90 yes you heard it right did you know that during the trials Arjun was sabotaged so much that they had to place a black box in it. Arjun in the beginning didn't have its own engine and the engine was imported so imagine the surprise of everyone when the engine was found to be sabotaged.

An other example.

The vshorad program they are multiple reports and even complaints by other competitors that the ilga system has failed multiple trials and didn't even attempt some trials but was selected anyway.

Does this mean that we should not test our own weapons.

No our weapons should be tested properly and only then be inducted I agree with you.

But in our case we are not testing them we are dragging them we are wasting time and money and playing a charade in the name of testing this is the problem.

What is the solution I don't know even when faced with the prospect of 2 front war we are running around the globe for help instead of doing something on our own.

 

[another_armchair]

Past past past all we talked about is past we are in future.
Mig-21 crash like fly coming down from sky did that mean we stopped buying Russian aircrafts?
Or we stopped purchasing of other Russian junk which always fails? Such as T-90 or amazing Mig-27 which were forced to retire sooner and had engine issues? Even the British L85 underperformed gun but that didn't stopped them from supporting other equipment of their industry.

Sirji asking manufacturer to fix the product is not BS logic but doing idiotic testing for years is. you said that army placed small order for 114 guns for further testing what's the logic behind that? Most of the professional militaries are able to test weapons within span of 1 year and then sell them to market like india.

Where did I say Army placed order for 114 guns to test/validate?

Mig-21's had a high rate of accidents. Whether it was in IAF or elsewhere.

Do forces have a right to decide what weapon system they can order from their Capex allocations?
NO. MoD decides who gets what.

Go read my post where I spoke about the AK factory in UP, the S-400 order and the Kamov-226 orders.
All are political decisions

Who cancelled the original Rafale contract and decided to go for a G2G deal?

Did IAF have a role in this? No. They are happy the Rafales are coming.

Govt. has placed orders for Dhanush and they are being fulfilled by GCF+OFB combine. End of argument.