India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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another_armchair

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Overall the points you state are right a product should be tested first and it's issues ironed out then inducted.

But the problem starts when you realize this is the case it when it comes to indigenous weapons.

To give you an example MRSAM was never battle tested or even properly tested when we decided to place a huge order for it.

And we also sent them back because we found some flaws in it and they had to rectify it and give it back.

The next example is T-90 yes you heard it right did you know that during the trials Arjun was sabotaged so much that they had to place a black box in it. Arjun in the beginning didn't have its own engine and the engine was imported so imagine the surprise of everyone when the engine was found to be sabotaged.

An other example.

The vshorad program they are multiple reports and even complaints by other competitors that the gila system has failed multiple trials and didn't even attempt some trials but was selected anyway.

Does this mean that we should not test our own weapons.

No our weapons should be tested properly and only then be inducted I agree with you.

But in our case we are not testing them we are dragging them we are wasting time and money and playing a charade in the name of testing this is the problem.

What is the solution I don't know even when faced with the prospect of 2 front war we are running around the globe for help instead of doing something on our own.
The competitors cried foul because the Russians replaced its Igla-S which was originally fielded during the trials with the Verba halfway during the trials. It met the objectives and emerged L1 which is why it was selected.
Afaik, orders will be placed for the Verba and not the Igla-S as originally thought.
Yes, rules were flouted but hey, its Russia after all.

For how long do we piggyback on that sabotage news?
Anyway, the IA DGMF is as responsible for the sorry state of the Arjun as HVF and DRDO. The Army showed very little interest in the project from the very beginning.

Army and Air Force have been most reluctant partners barring Navy which jumped onto the indigenization bandwagon long before the two.
 

Assassin 2.0

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114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years
Here you said that.
Where did I say Army placed order for 114 guns to test/validate?

Mig-21's had a high rate of accidents. Whether it was in IAF or elsewhere.
Why to buy such junkie aircraft when our military is super perfectionist? Only Russian oem can go away with low quality products?
Btw their are hundreds of cases in which IAF or army rejected local products under some bias.
 

ladder

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You tell me when trials concluded and when bulk production clearance was given to GCF Kanpur?

First phase of trials began in 2016.
Last round of user exploitation trials ended in 2018.
Orders were placed in 2019. Kapiche?

How is Army to be blamed for the delay?

Yes, M-777 has muzzle break issue, old bofors also has muzzle break issue but IA must place bulk orders so all the ordered guns face the same issue. Arey bhai, at least check if its within acceptable norms or not. Its our baby after all. Try to fix what can be fixed. Isn't it worth a try?
Good luck was with Dhanush as m777 had similar failure near about the same time.
Otherwise, the same cycle of trials would have been continuing.
And for your information, m777 didn't even fire 500 shells in Indian trials.
Yes, Gori chamdi proven system.😊

When because you have a whip ( being a local system) it isn't warrented to whip a obidient horse.

And you complained about length? You specified a 45 or 52 caliber weapon, without considering it's length and movement in mountain tracks?

And now you are complaining that should I have different weapons for different locations?

How did the winter trial take place in Sikkim?

And production schedule for Dhanush was
18+36+60 and then 100*3
 

Knowitall

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The competitors cried foul because the Russians replaced its Igla-S which was originally fielded during the trials with the Verba halfway during the trials. It met the objectives and emerged L1 which is why it was selected.
Afaik, orders will be placed for the Verba and not the Igla-S as originally thought.
Yes, rules were flouted but hey, its Russia after all.

For how long do we piggyback on that sabotage news?
Anyway, the IA DGMF is as responsible for the sorry state of the Arjun as HVF and DRDO. The Army showed very little interest in the project from the very beginning.

Army and Air Force have been most reluctant partners barring Navy which jumped onto the indigenization bandwagon long before the two.
No we are not getting verba as for as I remember could you send me the link for that.

Piggyback?

When ATAGS is being tested for 3 years its not piggybacking.

M-777 howitzer has blown up in India and australia too.
 
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another_armchair

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Here you said that.

Why to buy such junkie aircraft when our military is super perfectionist? Only Russian oem can go away with low quality products?
Btw their are hundreds of cases in which IAF or army rejected local products under some bias.
Of course they have because even if they say no, sunega kaun? :rofl:
 

another_armchair

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us

No we are not getting verba as for as I remember could you send me the link for that.

Piggyback?

When ATAGS is being tested for 3 years its not piggybacking.

M-777 howitzer has blown up in India and australia too.
Why was the M-777 originally ordered and specifically for which theatre?

The Chinooks can airlift the M-777. Good luck trying to mimic the same with the ATAGs.

One can always critique the decision/decisions if we really bought the Chinooks to airlift M-777, but point remains, it can be done and it is a workhorse.
 

another_armchair

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Who Jo Tatra ka sun Raha tha? Haan ki nahin? 😜
Isi liye bahut pehle ek post mein bola tha, Hamam mein sabhi nange hain.

That is why when Bhadra continued griping about IPS corruption, I brought out incidents of IA officers selling dry rations during the '65 war.

When he spoke about corruption in intel, I pointed at corruption cases in MI which he blissfully ignored.
 

Knowitall

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Why was the M-777 originally ordered and specifically for which theatre?

The Chinooks can airlift the M-777. Good luck trying to mimic the same with the ATAGs.

One can always critique the decision/decisions if we really bought the Chinooks to airlift M-777, but point remains, it can be done and it is a workhorse.
Nowhere at all have I stated we need ATAGS for the Chinese theatre.

Chinooks can't carry ATAGS but they can carry ULH made by kalyani industry right?

That's the whole point kalyani showed it's ULH long time back we could have had 100s by now but here we are stuck testing them and we will keep testing for.the next 20 years rest assured.
 

Coalmine

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114 orders for 155*45 mm. Better than no orders, right?
It is not a battle/field tested system like the M-777. Let forces use it, find faults, sit with the designers and fix them like they have been doing from the last 3-4 years.
There were three incidents of shell striking the barrel of the Dhanush during trials. Did IA reject them? They told them to find the root cause and fix it, and fixed, it was.

Trust me, our forces will be the happiest if Indian systems are reliable. After all, they also pay taxes.
A desi system means issues would be addressed locally and response times would be less too.

How many HAL choppers serving our forces? Any rejections yet? No. No chants of corruption?

Both AK-203 UP factory, S-400 and the KA-226 are POLITICAL decisions. Forces have absolutely no say in that. The Govt. may go ahead even if the forces say no to them. So behti Ganga mei ek dubki maarne se kya jayega?

A General cannot order an Arty weapon by himself. It has to go through the MoD. Gen. Deepak Kapoor was from Arty. Despite his best efforts, he could not induct any Tube Arty system during his tenure.

Regarding Helina, it is an integration issue and all efforts are being made to fix those. Once those are fixed, orders will definitely be placed.

ATAGS was a DRDO project and how much do they weigh? What is the length of the weapon system? How easily can it be transported to our borders bordering China. Enough has been written about them. Should IA have different guns for the Western sector, different set of guns for the Eastern sector and different guns for the Northern sector?

Imagine, a squad of 6 commandos with different calibre weapons ending up in a long firefight and start running out of ammo one after the other. Uske baad H2H combat only followed by some gallantry Chakra :)
not interested/cant read your huge posts. I know our products are good. And it should be inducted and continuous improvement should be done like how its done in other countries.
We are making huge hue and cry for inferior chinese tanks, missiles, fighters but afraid to induct our own systems which better than chinese ones.
Even if T90 tanks weighs less still we have to transport it via Air transport. Then why Arjuns cant be inducted.
JVPC gun not inducted.
 

ladder

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Isi liye bahut pehle ek post mein bola tha, Hamam mein sabhi nange hain.
Ham toh nango ki baath hi nahi kar rahein hein. Hum to hamam (system) ki baath Kar rahein hai saheb.

Who said to make 'realistic' GSQR? And why?

Just because it is a Defence forum, let's not take things superficially.
Service men may think about us as 'bleedy civilions' and wish us away but the reality is civilians have no where to go.
 

ARVION

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CHINESE BUILDING HELIPAD IN PANGONG TSO, MASSING TROOPS ON SOUTHERN BANK OF LAKE
MONDAY, JUNE 29, 2020 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS




This has led to apprehensions that the Chinese are asserting their claims and conveying their disinclination for restoration of status quo ante in the area


The Chinese Army has undertaken construction of a helipad at Finger 4 and increased the number of troops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso

As tensions run high between India and China on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, and no talks scheduled so far between military commanders, the Chinese army has started consolidating its positions in the Pangong Tso area.

This includes undertaking construction of a helipad at Finger 4 and a sudden increase of Chinese troops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso. This has led to apprehensions that the Chinese are asserting their claims and conveying their disinclination for restoration of status quo ante in the area.

An official told The Indian Express, “It is correct that the Chinese have started consolidating their positions on the north bank of Pangong Tso lake. There is a helipad that is now being constructed in the Finger 4 area, which is in addition to all the other infrastructure construction done by them in past eight weeks or so.”

“PLA patrols are now regularly making small forays down the ridge of Finger 3 towards the bank of the lake and then returning to the ridge. They are essentially asking us to move back to Finger 2,” the official said.

A second official said this meant that “the Chinese are telling us that they have no intention of going back or restoring the status quo as in April. It is why they have not been interested in discussing any disengagement or de-escalation in Pangong Tso.”

“We are also deployed in adequate strength but there are certain tactical restrictions imposed by the local terrain which we are cognisant of. Let me just say it is a challenging area for us,” the official said.

Pangong Tso and its northern bank have been a territory of contention between the two sides but before the current tensions arose, the Chinese had a permanent base at Finger 8. They have now deployed themselves eight kilometres to the west, at Finger 4 where they have also constructed shelters, pillboxes, bunkers and other infrastructure both on the bank and the ridgeline.

The Fingers are mountainous spurs jutting out from the ridge on the northern bank towards the lake.

While India asserts that the LAC in the area passes through Finger 8, the Chinese have always claimed it much further to the west. Historically, Indian patrols have had access to Finger 8 while the Chinese patrols would come further westward on vehicles using the road constructed during the 1999 Kargil War. A sharp rocky feature between the Finger 4 and Finger 3 means that the area to the west of Finger 4 is only accessible on foot.

India’s main base is close to Finger 3, around two kilometres west of the current Chinese deployment. The Indian side also has an administrative base closer to Finger 4, at the start of the sharp rocky feature. It is around this area that the Army has now deployed itself in response to the sudden Chinese deployment in the area. Less than 500 metres separate soldiers of both sides at this faceoff point.

Decoding LAC Conflict

The official also said that there has also been a sudden increase in Chinese troops on the southern bank of the lake, which has been matched by the Indian side as well.

This is the area of Chushul heights, where India has a base at Thakung on the southern bank. According to maps with the Indian Army, the LAC in the area goes south from Thakung to Point 5167 and Bump opposite the Spanggur Gap on the Chinese side.

Meanwhile, Army officers in Delhi confirmed that no further talks between the military commanders of both sides have been scheduled so far. After the meeting of the Corps Commanders on June 22, the consensus reached was to progress with meetings between the commanders on the ground
 

cereal killer

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CHINESE BUILDING HELIPAD IN PANGONG TSO, MASSING TROOPS ON SOUTHERN BANK OF LAKE
MONDAY, JUNE 29, 2020 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS




This has led to apprehensions that the Chinese are asserting their claims and conveying their disinclination for restoration of status quo ante in the area


The Chinese Army has undertaken construction of a helipad at Finger 4 and increased the number of troops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso

As tensions run high between India and China on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, and no talks scheduled so far between military commanders, the Chinese army has started consolidating its positions in the Pangong Tso area.

This includes undertaking construction of a helipad at Finger 4 and a sudden increase of Chinese troops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso. This has led to apprehensions that the Chinese are asserting their claims and conveying their disinclination for restoration of status quo ante in the area.

An official told The Indian Express, “It is correct that the Chinese have started consolidating their positions on the north bank of Pangong Tso lake. There is a helipad that is now being constructed in the Finger 4 area, which is in addition to all the other infrastructure construction done by them in past eight weeks or so.”

“PLA patrols are now regularly making small forays down the ridge of Finger 3 towards the bank of the lake and then returning to the ridge. They are essentially asking us to move back to Finger 2,” the official said.

A second official said this meant that “the Chinese are telling us that they have no intention of going back or restoring the status quo as in April. It is why they have not been interested in discussing any disengagement or de-escalation in Pangong Tso.”

“We are also deployed in adequate strength but there are certain tactical restrictions imposed by the local terrain which we are cognisant of. Let me just say it is a challenging area for us,” the official said.

Pangong Tso and its northern bank have been a territory of contention between the two sides but before the current tensions arose, the Chinese had a permanent base at Finger 8. They have now deployed themselves eight kilometres to the west, at Finger 4 where they have also constructed shelters, pillboxes, bunkers and other infrastructure both on the bank and the ridgeline.

The Fingers are mountainous spurs jutting out from the ridge on the northern bank towards the lake.

While India asserts that the LAC in the area passes through Finger 8, the Chinese have always claimed it much further to the west. Historically, Indian patrols have had access to Finger 8 while the Chinese patrols would come further westward on vehicles using the road constructed during the 1999 Kargil War. A sharp rocky feature between the Finger 4 and Finger 3 means that the area to the west of Finger 4 is only accessible on foot.

India’s main base is close to Finger 3, around two kilometres west of the current Chinese deployment. The Indian side also has an administrative base closer to Finger 4, at the start of the sharp rocky feature. It is around this area that the Army has now deployed itself in response to the sudden Chinese deployment in the area. Less than 500 metres separate soldiers of both sides at this faceoff point.

Decoding LAC Conflict

The official also said that there has also been a sudden increase in Chinese troops on the southern bank of the lake, which has been matched by the Indian side as well.

This is the area of Chushul heights, where India has a base at Thakung on the southern bank. According to maps with the Indian Army, the LAC in the area goes south from Thakung to Point 5167 and Bump opposite the Spanggur Gap on the Chinese side.

Meanwhile, Army officers in Delhi confirmed that no further talks between the military commanders of both sides have been scheduled so far. After the meeting of the Corps Commanders on June 22, the consensus reached was to progress with meetings between the commanders on the ground
They really want us to push back to Finger 2. They ain't going anywhere unless uprooted. 11 ping pong is really looking for a conflict.
 
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