India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[Hellfire]

Rest assured, talking diplomats can do zilch to stop flow of oil from Russia to China.

Rest assured, things are not what they seem either. There is a very strong tendency to forget that the Chinese claim any piece of rock where even a shadow has been cast by any Chinese throughout it's history.

Outer Mongolia aka Siberia is an area which the Chinese perceive to have lost in the backdrop of the Opium Wars wherein the Russians, in garb of supporting Chinese against invading forces of UK, US, Netherlands, German, Japan - quickly built up the Trans-Siberian railways to 'help the Chinese' and then placed troops to 'protect' it. (sounds very familiar to something happening right now, does it not?)

If diplomacy was such an useless tool, why is India and indeed China, still at it?

 

[Bhadra]

I may or may not move but by definition, LAC will have moved. That's my understanding right now. It is like calculus. You have LAC + delta of LAC and stuff like that. The only question is who can move whom on which side. Correct me if my understanding is wrong?

Firstly it is a line of Control which means it is not an internally recognised legal entity. Second, it is actual meaning that it is a state of application of some force by which a defined or undefined line has come into existence and being controlled by further application of various means like the establishment of posts. patrolling, marking signs of control, signalling to another side that the area up to that line belongs to that side.

Such a line is either agreed to between the two sides or conveyed to the other side or is a result of control established on a certain date in the past or based on traditions, conventions or natural geographical feature such a river.

In India China Case, it is perceived in terms of a line conveyed by Chinese and Indians to each others. Indian line has always been McMahon line in East and area up to Karakoram ranges and some Kunlun mountains in Ladakh. India also had established some posts prior to Chinese invasions and a line joining those post also forms basis of Indian claims. Chinese having established their military control in Eastern Ladakh always conveyed the lines of their military control - Line of 1959, Line of 1960, Line of the military advance of 1962 and line of withdrawal.

In that way lines have been moving as per the convenience of the Chinese. Indian having decided on a particular line have been moving up to those area A state of conflict arises when the "perception" about the two lines clash. Those are "perceptions" only in the absence of an agreement or any side firmly conveying their perception to each other.

Though it is a state of uncertainty but forces from each side generally stick to their perceptions in showing Control unless it is deliberately planned otherwise.

The consequences of breaking each others perception is hostility.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I have seen quite a few "single child" among my friend circle. I did not see anything unusual or wimpy about them. All of them were quite "tough". However if it's about propaganda, it's totally fine!

On a second thought, maybe the CCP sends its soldiers on aggressive patrolling on LAC and order them to do incursions, so that the "wimpy" "single child" army becomes tougher by interacting with "multiple children" Indian army/ ITBP by doing hands-on fighting and thus gaining invaluable experience. It's a possibility that can't be ruled out.

The local RR unit laughs at these spineless shits!

 

[ezsasa]

Single child stuff etc is overblown. Let's not get too carried away by these narratives.

Remember Ayub Khan's - "the Hindu, when struck a timely and decisive blow, would not be able to stand up" ?

intelligent pakis don't believe in everything they say about india either, and yet they continue to propagate.
but then again CCP foresaw this scenario and blocked their citizens from outside world.

 

[Hellfire]

True ITBP should return to its root acting as commando units. Assam rifles and ITBP should be kept under army command and training.
Also border area should be re populated with immigrants from different states.

Problem is that Army balks at providing officers. A very stupid logic.

Army provided officers for BSF till mid 1970s & then cited shortfall of officers. IPS was quick to sense an opportunity and did take it. And I hope people are aware of the "stellar job" by BSF along LOC in early 1990s which led to their being replaced or beefed up and being placed under operational command of army subsequently.

Army also cited shortfall of officers to try and stop providing officers for Assam Rifles in 2000. The same was opposed by the Army officers posted at HQ DGAR specifically the then DD (GS) who was reviewing the PE and WE of the force (and got the introduction of Battalion Support Weapons i.e. Mortars and Rocket Launchers) totally supported by the then DGAR.

 

[Hijibiji]

Rest assured, things are not what they seem either. There is a very strong tendency to forget that the Chinese claim any piece of rock where even a shadow has been cast by any Chinese throughout it's history.

Outer Mongolia aka Siberia is an area which the Chinese perceive to have lost in the backdrop of the Opium Wars wherein the Russians, in garb of supporting Chinese against invading forces of UK, US, Netherlands, German, Japan - quickly built up the Trans-Siberian railways to 'help the Chinese' and then placed troops to 'protect' it. (sounds very familiar to something happening right now, does it not?)

If diplomacy was such an useless tool, why is India and indeed China, still at it?

The way i see- "diplomats" are messengers. They carry the message and interpret the messages delivered by the other side. And then they "bargain", i guess. It works as long as there is a win-win deal possible. Beyond that there is not much to it. And even to get a win-win deal, things like economy/ arms/ technology / infrastructure/ armed forces must be pre-existing on the ground. Without those things, "diplomats" can of course be well dressed, suave, and "talking" but diplomacy is very much on the higher layer. When the lower layers are not in place or systematically neglected/ destroyed/ undermined, diplomats are nothing but sitting and quacking ducks.

Diplomacy is not utterly useless but it is overly over-hyped. Honestly no powerful nation really cares for diplomacy. Nobody does and nobody did. An empire expands as long it can expand and until it's stopped by another hard-power. Diplomacy is like the chutney in full thali.

 

[IndianHawk]

If diplomacy was such an useless tool, why is India and indeed China, still at it?

Diplomacy works when backed by swords.
You can maintain peace if you are ready for war.

Otherwise you get shafted .

 

[Hellfire]

which makes me wonder, are we inside chinese territory and using our media for trolling purposes ?

Hilarious if true

They occupied a few rocky outcrops on our side, we returned the favor and then some on their side.

Any such 'confrontation' has two dimensions:

1. The show of force i.e. the scuffle with empty weapons and more of unarmed/sublethal means.
2. The engaging troops - who are waiting for the other side to make a mistake and escalate at point 1 above.

Any such 'scuffle' invariably takes place when adequate build up has been undertaken and usually has enough troops on either side to ensure neither of the sides involved in scuffling is able to get the troops out if things get hot. A weird sense of MAD exists.

 

[ladder]

Problem is that Army balks at providing officers. A very stupid logic.

SSC officers could be absorbed, but it causes cadre and equivalence issues.
More so for officers than jawans, who have been absorbed in CAPF after retirement although on a small scale.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Problem is that Army balks at providing officers. A very stupid logic.

Army provided officers for BSF till mid 1970s & then cited shortfall of officers. IPS was quick to sense an opportunity and did take it. And I hope people are aware of the "stellar job" by BSF along LOC in early 1990s which led to their being replaced or beefed up and being placed under operational command of army subsequently.

Army also cited shortfall of officers to try and stop providing officers for Assam Rifles in 2000. The same was opposed by the Army officers posted at HQ DGAR specifically the then DD (GS) who was reviewing the PE and WE of the force (and got the introduction of Battalion Support Weapons i.e. Mortars and Rocket Launchers) totally supported by the then DGAR.

ITBP needs a dedicated cadre. Some of these Tour Of Duty Officers could be used to plug the gap.

 

[Hellfire]

The way i see- "diplomats" are messengers. They carry the message and interpret the messages delivered by the other side. And then they "bargain", i guess. It works as long as there is a win-win deal possible. Beyond that there is not much to it. And even to get a win-win deal, things like economy/ arms/ technology / infrastructure/ armed forces must be pre-existing on the ground. Without those things, "diplomats" can of course be well dressed, suave, and "talking" but diplomacy is very much on the higher layer. When the lower layers are not in place or systematically neglected/ destroyed/ undermined, diplomats are nothing but sitting and quacking ducks.

Diplomacy is not utterly useless but it is overly over-hyped. Honestly no powerful nation really cares for diplomacy. Nobody does and nobody did. An empire expands as long it can expand and until it's stopped by another hard-power. Diplomacy is like the chutney in full thali.

If you read Kautilya, Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Jomini - any of the acclaimed 'strategists', there is one very constant refrain - of using diplomacy to isolate your enemy before attacking him. The attack may/may not be militarily.

Why do we see an effective action being undertaken against Pakistan? It is because of the diplomatic offensive that was launched under Modi 1.0.

Similarly, if you have noticed, Indian position is more or less quite clear for Chinese now - diplomacy will continue, but military options are on the table, and India won't be the first to resort to use of force.

This approach is one of the most effective tools right now, especially as PRC stands more isolated than ever.

 

[Hijibiji]

The local RR unit laughs at these spineless shits!

I like people when they laugh. I have never seen Jyoti Basu, Shibulal (former CEO of a large Indian company) and Emperor Xi laughing though!

 

[Hellfire]

SSC officers could be absorbed, but it causes cadre and equivalence issues.
More so for officers than jawans, who have been absorbed in CAPF after retirement although on a small scale.

That proposal of lateral entry scheme has been opposed by the IAS-IPS lobby as there seems to be a note existing that protects the seniority of the Army Officer - akin to seen on deputation to Central Govt as OSD, which seems many IPS officers have an issue.

We are losing one of the most well trained resource that can be absorbed into the CAPFs to enhance their effectiveness no doubts.

 

[Hijibiji]

If you read Kautilya, Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Jomini - any of the acclaimed 'strategists', there is one very constant refrain - of using diplomacy to isolate your enemy before attacking him. The attack may/may not be militarily.

Why do we see an effective action being undertaken against Pakistan? It is because of the diplomatic offensive that was launched under Modi 1.0.

Similarly, if you have noticed, Indian position is more or less quite clear for Chinese now - diplomacy will continue, but military options are on the table, and India won't be the first to resort to use of force.

This approach is one of the most effective tools right now, especially as PRC stands more isolated than ever.

Agreed. Now we are on the same page. Convergence achieved!

 

[Hellfire]

ITBP needs a dedicated cadre. Some of these Tour Of Duty Officers could be used to plug the gap.

The IPS-IAS lobby is a very strong one.

Off topic tidbit. An IPS officer of Delhi cadre, posted to Gauhati, gets roughly 2x HRA and Hard Area Allowance, amounting to almost Rs 80000 pm as opposed to an Army officer of same service bracket getting roughly 1/3rd in Siachen. Strange world

 

[Suryavanshi]

Didn't know An 32 could do that.

Spoiler

Why couldn't they Paint it white?

 

[Hellfire]

Firstly it is a line of Control which means it is not an internally recognised legal entity. Second, it is actual meaning that it is a state of application of some force by which a defined or undefined line has come into existence and being controlled by further application of various means like the establishment of posts. patrolling, marking signs of control, signalling to another side that the area up to that line belongs to that side.

Such a line is either agreed to between the two sides or conveyed to the other side or is a result of control established on a certain date in the past or based on traditions, conventions or natural geographical feature such a river.

In India China Case, it is perceived in terms of a line conveyed by Chinese and Indians to each others. Indian line has always been McMahon line in East and area up to Karakoram ranges and some Kunlun mountains in Ladakh. India also had established some posts prior to Chinese invasions and a line joining those post also forms basis of Indian claims. Chinese having established their military control in Eastern Ladakh always conveyed the lines of their military control - Line of 1959, Line of 1960, Line of the military advance of 1962 and line of withdrawal.

In that way lines have been moving as per the convenience of the Chinese. Indian having decided on a particular line have been moving up to those area A state of conflict arises when the "perception" about the two lines clash. Those are "perceptions" only in the absence of an agreement or any side firmly conveying their perception to each other.

Though it is a state of uncertainty but forces from each side generally stick to their perceptions in showing Control unless it is deliberately planned otherwise.

The consequences of breaking each others perception is hostility.

There is some issue as we have signed with China, in 1993, the words 'Line of Actual Control'

 

[Hellfire]

Didn't know An 32 could do that.

View attachment 48893

Spoiler

Why couldn't they Paint it white?

Does not anymore. Last bombing mission for an An-32 Squadron was planned in 2008, in immediate aftermath of Mumbai Terror attack as a broad offensive against Pakistani targets and PAF bases to deal a crushing blow in case they tried to expand the conflict post India strike.

No 12 Sqn was tasked with it. Also, Il-76s of then 25 and 44 (now only 44 has them) were similarly planned.

 

[ladder]

That proposal of lateral entry scheme has been opposed by the IAS-IPS lobby as there seems to be a note existing that protects the seniority of the Army Officer - akin to seen on deputation to Central Govt as OSD, which seems many IPS officers have an issue.

We are losing one of the most well trained resource that can be absorbed into the CAPFs to enhance their effectiveness no doubts.

This dual tasking ( peace and war time) mandate of BG CAPF has been ill conceived from the beginning.
If during war it performs all the role of a light infantry regiment of holding corps, then in essence you are creating a poor man's army.
Separate pay, perks and allowences but more or less same mandate.

Has Assam Rifle ever fulfilled this role even it experimentally? Under certain exercise?

 

[Hellfire]

This dual tasking ( peace and war time) mandate of BG CAPF has been ill conceived from the beginning.

In what sense? If you could elaborate please.

Broadly, the roles of CAPFs are quite clear in either scenario - border security (as may be the case) & internal security in peacetime and rear area security for own advancing troops and internal security in war times.

(BSF and Assam Rifles have additional role of either undertaking offensive tasks independently or as part of regular army forces under overall operational command of the Army in war)

If during war it performs all the role of a light infantry regiment of holding corps, then in essence you are creating a poor man's army.
Separate pay, perks and allowences but more or less same mandate.

No two views on this.

Has Assam Rifle ever fulfilled this role even it experimentally? Under certain exercise?

Yes. Not an exercise. 1950s right upto 1962 saw Assam Rifles undertake necessary operations.