India-China Border conflict

[mist_consecutive]

It's a damn shame that there is still not enough Infrastructure along NEFA and virtually nothing along karakoram at least not as much as compared to those damned pinko commies. Maj Gen. Bakshi said in a interview that daily 7 trains can come to Lhasa each train can carry a battalion and a squad of tanks on the stows. If our forces are not able to mobilize and deploy properly then we'll be over run. What's more shocking to know is that till 2010 it was UPA's policy as stated by AK Anthony the then Defense minister to not build infrastructure along Indo-China because they feared chinese will use them, but as Israeli GHQ once said


Chinese have upgraded their roads to T-70 that means chinese tanks can now run at speed of 70 km/hr on roads and have built a broader guage railway. We must take lessons from Franco-Prussian war

I see you are a budding defence enthusiast ! Stick around here and you will learn a lot.

 

[KurtisBrian]

We must take lessons from Franco-Prussian war

Perhaps the war might be a “French”-German war called WW2.

You all know this well.

Modern “French” built up a huge defensive line called the “Magi not” line (meaning no brilliant Magi in France anymore thus no wise decisions...result the traitorous French become losers). There were many railways and highways leading up to the line. Turns out those roads ended up existing so surrender to the Germans was quick and also that flanking Germans could easily attack the rear. Oops.

German leaders seeing a powerful defensive line did what less stupid people would do. Germans went around it. Of course with their massive air force Germans could have bombed those guns into oblivion, but time was paramount.

French Generals, at least being wise enough to realize their men were all going to die, said, “Merde, abandon!” French soldiers did as ordered.

 

[rao.abhirav]

Perhaps the war might be a “French”-German war called WW2.

You all know this well.

Modern “French” built up a huge defensive line called the “Magi not” line (meaning no brilliant Magi in France anymore thus no wise decisions...result the traitorous French become losers). There were many railways and highways leading up to the line. Turns out those roads ended up existing so surrender to the Germans was quick and also that flanking Germans could easily attack the rear. Oops.

German leaders seeing a powerful defensive line did what less stupid people would do. Germans went around it. Of course with their massive air force Germans could have bombed those guns into oblivion, but time was paramount.

French Generals, at least being wise enough to realize their men were all going to die, said, “Merde, abandon!” French soldiers did as ordered.

No I am talking about Franco-Prussian war of 1871 during the German unification under Otto von bismarck

Then C-in-C of Prussian army Gen. Von Moltke the Elder. The war teaches us that a train schedule is as important as strategy. Logistics Matter. The prussian army was able to mobilise faster via trains and over ran the french territory even captured Paris and then in the halls of palace of Versailles, German Empire under Kaiser was proclaimed.

TDLR : Logistics matter

 

[KurtisBrian]

No I am talking about Franco-Prussian war of 1871 during the German unification under Otto von bismarck

Then C-in-C of Prussian army Gen. Von Moltke the Elder. The war teaches us that a train schedule is as important as strategy. Logistics Matter. The prussian army was able to mobilise faster via trains and over ran the french territory even captured Paris and then in the halls of palace of Versailles, German Empire under Kaiser was proclaimed.

TDLR : Logistics matter

I do not dispute that logistics are vital. I guess I dispute putting holes in your defensive wall of mountains. A wall with lots of gates and holes isn't a very good wall. But I guess it is all a moot point in a world of bombers, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles that can bombard over your wall, with pin point precision, for 1000's of km.

I read about the Franco-Prussian war in 1870-71. Is that the one? Where France declared war upon and invaded the German Northern states?
One might also view that war as one in which allies played a key role. Austria-Hungary didn't side with France which freed up the armies of the German Southern states. German South states went to the aid of German Northern states. French were facing a united Germany (numerical superiority favored the Germans) and the balance of military power shifted.

 

[rao.abhirav]

I do not dispute that logistics are vital. I guess I dispute putting holes in your defensive wall of mountains. A wall with lots of gates and holes isn't a very good wall. But I guess it is all a moot point in a world of bombers, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles that can bombard over your wall, with pin point precision, for 1000's of km.

I read about the Franco-Prussian war in 1870-71. Is that the one? Where France declared war upon and invaded the German Northern states?
One might also view that war as one in which allies played a key role. Austria-Hungary didn't side with France which freed up the armies of the German Southern states. German South states went to the aid of German Northern states. French were facing a united Germany (numerical superiority favored the Germans) and the balance of military power shifted.

Speaking of bombers, we don't have any competent bombers. we are still using Mirage 2000 fighter bombers, we don't have dedicated bombers more dreadfully we don't have stealth air superiority jets as well.

Chinese have stealth fighters and are developing stealth bombers. But Indian AMCA seems a far dream well as long as it is trusted with PSUs. We should atleast get a back wing bomber like B-1B or Tupulov Tu-160/Tu-22

 

[Gyyan]

This is how you make the best of an opportunity.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Speaking of bombers, we don't have any competent bombers. we are still using Mirage 2000 fighter bombers, we don't have dedicated bombers more dreadfully we don't have stealth air superiority jets as well.

Chinese have stealth fighters and are developing stealth bombers. But Indian AMCA seems a far dream well as long as it is trusted with PSUs. We should atleast get a back wing bomber like B-1B or Tupulov Tu-160/Tu-22

@jai jaganath @Love Charger do want to babysit him ?

 

[Love Charger]

Speaking of bombers, we don't have any competent bombers. we are still using Mirage 2000 fighter bombers, we don't have dedicated bombers more dreadfully we don't have stealth air superiority jets as well.

Chinese have stealth fighters and are developing stealth bombers. But Indian AMCA seems a far dream well as long as it is trusted with PSUs. We should atleast get a back wing bomber like B-1B or Tupulov Tu-160/Tu-22

Why do you need a dedicated bombers?
I often day dream about hundreds of bombers dropping torpedoes on chini ships to destroy them. Then I realise it's a foolish thing.
Only use of dedicated bomber is for launching cruise missile and dropping nukes.
Sukhois can launch brahmos and rafales can launch scalp stealth cruise missiles.
Mirages can launch a nuke, if it really comes to it.
You don't have level whole cities, do you?
Rather than spending money on buying a bomber, which nobody will sell us except Russia and right now situation for a consideerable period of time says that we, would be foolish to buy such big tickets items from them anyway.
Anyway An 32 has been used by IAF for carpet bombing, in future c 295 will full fill that role in my opinion if it's needs to
We also lack dive bombers and we also lack torpedo bombers you see, going by your thinking we should buy them also.
As far as fifth generation stuff is concerned we are at a disadvantage w r t the chinense no doubt.
@mist_consecutive

 

[jai jaganath]

@jai jaganath @Love Charger do want to babysit him ?

Basically I agree with @rao.abhirav on everything except bombers
Bcoz u don't have requirement especially in case of lac
Agar esa kharidna hai toh kitne chiz hai
We have go prioritize
Bombing role can be performed by fighters too
This isn't older days
Point is do we have enough fighters
No
We seriously lag fighters refuelers awacs and instead of buying these which will actually provide advantage and looking over bombers which are nothing but just show of power thing especially carpet bombing in the terrain lac is a question itself
We need fighters damn fighters
They have hundreds of 5th gen aircraft forget about j-16 j-11 and j-10 that they can throw on us as the

 

[mist_consecutive]

Basically I agree with @rao.abhirav on everything except bombers
Bcoz u don't have requirement especially in case of lac
Agar esa kharidna hai toh kitne chiz hai
We have go prioritize
Bombing role can be performed by fighters too
This isn't older days
Point is do we have enough fighters
No
We seriously lag fighters refuelers awacs and instead of buying these which will actually provide advantage and looking over bombers which are nothing but just show of power thing especially carpet bombing in the terrain lac is a question itself
We need fighters damn fighters
They have hundreds of 5th gen aircraft forget about j-16 j-11 and j-10 that they can throw on us as the

The only thing he said apart from bombers is stealth fighters. The only non-AMCA way of getting a stealth fighter is getting F-35 by begging uncle sam, and they will make us beg hard. And do you want me to remind you of the parsimonious attitude of GoI toward fighter procurement?
Rafale khareede nhi jaa rahe F-35 khareedenge chacha.

Regarding 4th gen aircraft, I think we are doing the best (of what sarkari babus) can do already. Trust ADA to deliver LCA sometime in the next 50-60 years, to the utmost delight to desi dephens phanboys.

 

[Gyyan]

The only thing he said apart from bombers is stealth fighters. The only non-AMCA way of getting a stealth fighter is getting F-35 by begging uncle sam, and they will make us beg hard. And do you want me to remind you of the parsimonious attitude of GoI toward fighter procurement?
Rafale khareede nhi jaa rahe F-35 khareedenge chacha.

Regarding 4th gen aircraft, I think we are doing the best (of what sarkari babus) can do already. Trust ADA to deliver LCA sometime in the next 50-60 years, to the utmost delight to desi dephens phanboys.

There is we just need to wait till 2035 so it can come out of the drawing board(Borame)

 

[mist_consecutive]

Wildlife Board approves IAF mountain radar in Ladakh

Likely to come up soon, is an ambitious and long-debated plan to set up a High-Altitude Air to Ground Firing range in Ladakh to ensure battle readiness in hostile high reaches of the Sino-India border, ET has gathered.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

This will be just beside the newly-planned Nyoma airbase.

 

[pankaj nema]

MQ 9 B Armed Drones

WSJ News Exclusive | India Moves Closer to Approving Purchase of Armed Drones From the U.S.

New Delhi is seeking to counter a more-assertive Chinese stance on the countries’ Himalayan border and boost surveillance efforts in the Indian Ocean.

www.wsj.com

 

[DumbPilot]

It's a damn shame that there is still not enough Infrastructure along NEFA and virtually nothing along karakoram at least not as much as compared to those damned pinko commies. Maj Gen. Bakshi said in a interview that daily 7 trains can come to Lhasa each train can carry a battalion and a squad of tanks on the stows. If our forces are not able to mobilize and deploy properly then we'll be over run. What's more shocking to know is that till 2010 it was UPA's policy as stated by AK Anthony the then Defense minister to not build infrastructure along Indo-China because they feared chinese will use them, but as Israeli GHQ once said


Chinese have upgraded their roads to T-70 that means chinese tanks can now run at speed of 70 km/hr on roads and have built a broader guage railway. We must take lessons from Franco-Prussian war

My father worked in the government during the 1980s+, and the status of the whole of AP/NEFA was basically "we won't build roads, so that we can't go there. If we can't go there, then that means we won't ever know if the Chinese came. If we won't know if the Chinese ever came, that means they didn't come at all!"

 

[rao.abhirav]

Why do you need a dedicated bombers?
I often day dream about hundreds of bombers dropping torpedoes on chini ships to destroy them. Then I realise it's a foolish thing.
Only use of dedicated bomber is for launching cruise missile and dropping nukes.
Sukhois can launch brahmos and rafales can launch scalp stealth cruise missiles.
Mirages can launch a nuke, if it really comes to it.
You don't have level whole cities, do you?
Rather than spending money on buying a bomber, which nobody will sell us except Russia and right now situation for a consideerable period of time says that we, would be foolish to buy such big tickets items from them anyway.
Anyway An 32 has been used by IAF for carpet bombing, in future c 295 will full fill that role in my opinion if it's needs to
We also lack dive bombers and we also lack torpedo bombers you see, going by your thinking we should buy them also.
As far as fifth generation stuff is concerned we are at a disadvantage w r t the chinense no doubt.
@mist_consecutive

I agree but as far as development of Air defense systems are concerned and while taking into notice the pace at which China is developing it's own indigenous systems like HQ-22 etc our older versions of fighter bombers will be redundant, shot down as soon as they enter Chinese ADIZ.

Majority of cities in china are in their northern and eastern theaters, western theater is very sparsely populated so no use of dropping bombs there. If our fighter bombers like rafale have to reach them they would require refueling in hostile territory or crossing aerospace of thailand, laos etc which I don't think they will allow. At least our fighter bombers will have to do external fuel tanks which will limit their capability to carry payload.
We cannot launch from INS Vikramaditya or INS Vikrant either cuz both of them have Ski Jump which limits amount of fuel and payload you can carry. That gentlemen leaves our Nuclear triad incomplete without a dedicated long range bomber. I will have to agree that instead of developing dedicated bombers we can redirect the funds to develop more ballistic or more effectively if possible hypersonic cruise missiles.

But if we want to drop payload via Air then it will be difficult, at least good multi roles and as @mist_consecutive said AMCA is a far dream, to achieve that defense PSUs must be whipped hard why it is that Chinese PSUs are able to mass produce lethal weapons(Although not tested in war and probably paper tigers) and Indian PSUs are breeding grounds for tomfoolery and delays.

Why we don't wanna level cities which we should do actually, nowadays with development of fire arms Urban warfare has became a pain in the bloody arse. I believe it is much viable to level the city than to storm it with troops and armour. Look at Russia Ukraine war Russians are not able to storm cities so they are having to resort to leveling them like they did in mariupol and earlier in the nineties at Grozny during chechan insurgency. If buildings are allowed to stand then enemy will use them we will have to fight bloc by bloc. Neighborhood by Neighborhood like stalingard untill we exhaust ourselves and loose the momentum as the Russians did. And nowadays if a war is no short and sweet it is as good as lost.

I still have to learn a lot tho, I am just starting out
@Love Charger
@jai jaganath

 

[rao.abhirav]

My father worked in the government during the 1980s+, and the status of the whole of AP/NEFA was basically "we won't build roads, so that we can't go there. If we can't go there, then that means we won't ever know if the Chinese came. If we won't know if the Chinese ever came, that means they didn't come at all!"

Clearly resonates with when Nehru said

not a single blade of grass grows there

 

[jai jaganath]

I agree but as far as development of Air defense systems are concerned and while taking into notice the pace at which China is developing it's own indigenous systems like HQ-22 etc our older versions of fighter bombers will be redundant, shot down as soon as they enter Chinese ADIZ.

View attachment 195387

Majority of cities in china are in their northern and eastern theaters, western theater is very sparsely populated so no use of dropping bombs there. If our fighter bombers like rafale have to reach them they would require refueling in hostile territory or crossing aerospace of thailand, laos etc which I don't think they will allow. At least our fighter bombers will have to do external fuel tanks which will limit their capability to carry payload.
We cannot launch from INS Vikramaditya or INS Vikrant either cuz both of them have Ski Jump which limits amount of fuel and payload you can carry. That gentlemen leaves our Nuclear triad incomplete without a dedicated long range bomber. I will have to agree that instead of developing dedicated bombers we can redirect the funds to develop more ballistic or more effectively if possible hypersonic cruise missiles.

But if we want to drop payload via Air then it will be difficult, at least good multi roles and as @mist_consecutive said AMCA is a far dream, to achieve that defense PSUs must be whipped hard why it is that Chinese PSUs are able to mass produce lethal weapons(Although not tested in war and probably paper tigers) and Indian PSUs are breeding grounds for tomfoolery and delays.

Why we don't wanna level cities which we should do actually, nowadays with development of fire arms Urban warfare has became a pain in the bloody arse. I believe it is much viable to level the city than to storm it with troops and armour. Look at Russia Ukraine war Russians are not able to storm cities so they are having to resort to leveling them like they did in mariupol and earlier in the nineties at Grozny during chechan insurgency. If buildings are allowed to stand then enemy will use them we will have to fight bloc by bloc. Neighborhood by Neighborhood like stalingard untill we exhaust ourselves and loose the momentum as the Russians did. And nowadays if a war is no short and sweet it is as good as lost.

I still have to learn a lot tho, I am just starting out
@Love Charger
@jai jaganath

Even if u get long range bombers bro
How can u target the cities even their u have to enter their airspace and u will definitely encounter the AD bcoz u can't have air superiority in the region with current sq and even if we add fictionally add 300 fighters we won't be able to gain air superiority over their land
This problem will persist their cities are far from borders but we don't
They can even use bombers from their airspace or just coming into ours for a short time lapse and launch long range missiles or even medium range will do we can't have this advantage at any cost
If they target our cities will not have any options other than BM
Once was in their forum they very beautifully explained that they can create partial air superiority over us due our low fighter strength and thef window can help them target cities far from war zone due to long range missiles
Some member was claiming they can easily overpower our airforce and reach delhi to bomb it but we can't bcoz neither we have strength nor geography is in our favour
Who knows what will happen but it's sure iaf will let us down

 

[DumbPilot]

Clearly resonates with when Nehru said

More than just Nehru, it was just a succession of top level executives, who didn't really do anything about it. Even Modi only started the AP infra project because he wants to probably win in that area. With leaders like this, it is no surprise we are where we are. On the other hand, alteast infra push has started, so we'll probably have something good by 2030-40

 

[Love Charger]

I agree but as far as development of Air defense systems are concerned and while taking into notice the pace at which China is developing it's own indigenous systems like HQ-22 etc our older versions of fighter bombers will be redundant, shot down as soon as they enter Chinese ADIZ.

View attachment 195387

Majority of cities in china are in their northern and eastern theaters, western theater is very sparsely populated so no use of dropping bombs there. If our fighter bombers like rafale have to reach them they would require refueling in hostile territory or crossing aerospace of thailand, laos etc which I don't think they will allow. At least our fighter bombers will have to do external fuel tanks which will limit their capability to carry payload.
We cannot launch from INS Vikramaditya or INS Vikrant either cuz both of them have Ski Jump which limits amount of fuel and payload you can carry. That gentlemen leaves our Nuclear triad incomplete without a dedicated long range bomber. I will have to agree that instead of developing dedicated bombers we can redirect the funds to develop more ballistic or more effectively if possible hypersonic cruise missiles.

But if we want to drop payload via Air then it will be difficult, at least good multi roles and as @mist_consecutive said AMCA is a far dream, to achieve that defense PSUs must be whipped hard why it is that Chinese PSUs are able to mass produce lethal weapons(Although not tested in war and probably paper tigers) and Indian PSUs are breeding grounds for tomfoolery and delays.

Why we don't wanna level cities which we should do actually, nowadays with development of fire arms Urban warfare has became a pain in the bloody arse. I believe it is much viable to level the city than to storm it with troops and armour. Look at Russia Ukraine war Russians are not able to storm cities so they are having to resort to leveling them like they did in mariupol and earlier in the nineties at Grozny during chechan insurgency. If buildings are allowed to stand then enemy will use them we will have to fight bloc by bloc. Neighborhood by Neighborhood like stalingard untill we exhaust ourselves and loose the momentum as the Russians did. And nowadays if a war is no short and sweet it is as good as lost.

I still have to learn a lot tho, I am just starting out
@Love Charger
@jai jaganath

Okay fine buddy, go read about allied bomber loses in ww2 over Germany.
They literally took 1000 bombers with 800 fighters as escort.
To level up a single city.
And if you send in a single plane with a nuke, enemy will do every thing possible to shoot it down mid air.
The Japanese did not know, else they would have shot that enola gay with everything they had.

 

[rao.abhirav]

Even if u get long range bombers bro
How can u target the cities even their u have to enter their airspace and u will definitely encounter the AD bcoz u can't have air superiority in the region with current sq and even if we add fictionally add 300 fighters we won't be able to gain air superiority over their land
This problem will persist their cities are far from borders but we don't
They can even use bombers from their airspace or just coming into ours for a short time lapse and launch long range missiles or even medium range will do we can't have this advantage at any cost
If they target our cities will not have any options other than BM
Once was in their forum they very beautifully explained that they can create partial air superiority over us due our low fighter strength and thef window can help them target cities far from war zone due to long range missiles
Some member was claiming they can easily overpower our airforce and reach delhi to bomb it but we can't bcoz neither we have strength nor geography is in our favour
Who knows what will happen but it's sure iaf will let us down

In India my friend, we simply do not have the finances we prop up IAF to Chinese level, what I suggest alternatively is that we invest heavily in Air defenses, now we have 3 regiments of S-400 but surely more are needed. Sort of a layered defense of Long range, medium range and tactical SAMs and Electronic warfare systems.

It is rather low chance that they would attack Delhi, If I was chinese forward controller I would much rather attack the Army commands like Eastern Army command, kolkatta etc. + they would have to cross the Himalayas or Karakoram much hard to navigate