Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[IndianHawk]

It looks like the upgrade package will have the updated AL 41 F-C1 engine to go with the N035 IBRIS E PESA radar due to the increased power and reliability requirements.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/sputni...ble-of-detecting-f-35-chinese-j-20---analyst/

They upgraded to al41 so that they have to maintain only one type of engine across their entire fleet of su30 and su35.

Al31 is powerful enough to support irbis E.

 

[IndianHawk]

I think if we are going with Russia for su-30mki update then we will use Russian radar. NIP 035 is used on su-35.
For asea there is zuhuk radar but it's not that great.

There is also bleyka no36 for su57. But will Russian sell it and at what cost??

Also upgrade will take over a decade to complete over such a large fleet so it may be batch wise.

1 st upgrade batch might go with irbis with later batches coming up with full aesa .

 

[vampyrbladez]

They upgraded to al41 so that they have to maintain only one type of engine across their entire fleet of su30 and su35.

Al31 is powerful enough to support irbis E.

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Power generated will have increased usage. The engine will require more power generation atleast via uprating it to increase service life and reliability.

 

[IndianHawk]

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Power generated will have increased usage. The engine will require more power generation atleast via uprating it to increase service life and reliability.

We might upgrade it. But it's not a pressing need. And it will be very expensive over a huge fleet. We need to balance the upgrade with costs.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

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Power generated will have increased usage. The engine will require more power generation atleast via uprating it to increase service life and reliability.

I don't think IAF have any plans to update engines coz first two 123 kn engines i think will power this pesa update coz we are using old pesa for a long time which was also very powerful. And we have license manufacturing and overhaul rights with this engine we will be forced to pay russkies again for new engine licenses. And overall update cost will spike if we update them. Instead of that we should go with lighter components which are used in su-35. Such as new material used in wings of su-35. Which will reduce the weight.

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't think IAF have any plans to update engines coz first two 123 kn engines i think will power this pesa update coz we are using old pesa for a long time which was also very powerful. And we have license manufacturing and overhaul rights with this engine we will be forced to pay russkies again for new engine licenses. And overall update cost will spike if we update them. Instead of that we should go with lighter components which are used in su-35. Such as new material used in wings of su-35. Which will reduce the weight.

It comes down to how much IAF is willing to spend. The cost of upgrading 272 aircraft will be high no matter what they choose. For that reason I think they will choose a similar upgrade package that Russia will standardise as that will lower the cost of the upgrade. If IAF starts cherry picking that will increase the cost. HAL working on it will already increase the cost over what Russia would charge. HAL doing an upgrade that Russia is not certifying would slow the process down considerably.

 

[uoftotaku]

We might upgrade it. But it's not a pressing need. And it will be very expensive over a huge fleet. We need to balance the upgrade with costs.

The AL-41F offers some specific advantages over the AL-31F such as super cruise capability, 3D thrust vector nozzle (Al-31F has 2D only) and over better fuel consumption and MTBS.

Agreed that the cost will be high, however, the plan as far as I know is to time the upgrades to when the current AL-31F's installed are at the end of their economic service life anyway so it will be an enforced swap + upgrade. Even if they choose to keep the AL-31 they will need new engines for another 15-20 years of service

Makes sense to upgrade in such a situation.

The bigger issue will be the avionics and systems package. The less we get from Russia the better for long term. Radar selection is critical, as is the EW suite and communications package. Best to avoid systems integration nightmare with disparate items coming from different countries.

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF's Sukhois to get more advanced avionics & radars from Su-35

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India plans to upgrade its fleet of Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets with more advanced avionics, radars and weapons to further bolster their combat capabilities, with detailed talks currently under way with Russia for the project.
The IAF is also finalising with Russia the procurement of 12 more Sukhois to replace the ones lost in crashes, which will be built by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics, as well as 21 additional MiG-29 jets that will cost around Rs 230 crore each.

"The Sukhois will be upgraded in near future to further enhance their operational capabilities," said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria. The IAF has so far inducted over 250 of the 272 Sukhois originally contracted in batches from Russia for well over $12 billion, with the bulk of them being licensed-produced by HAL.

The Sukhoi upgrade project will include the latest avionics, a much more powerful radar "almost as good as an AESA (active electronically scanned array) one", state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems and the like. "There will be new computer systems for greater weapon control and integration of new missiles and PGMs (precision-guided munitions)," said a source. Forty-two of the twin-seat Sukhois, which have a cruising of 3,200 km or a combat radius of about 1,500 km without mid-air refuelling, are also to be armed with the supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles to constitute a deadly package of precision-strike capability from long or "stand-off distances".

The IAF has based the fourth-generation "air dominance" Sukhois on both the western and eastern fronts, from Halwara, Jodhpur and Sirsa to Bareilly, Tezpur and Chabua, to cater for Pakistan and China. Along with the Mirage-2000s, the Sukhois are the most potent fighters in the country's air combat fleet till the 36 Rafales get inducted under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in 2016.

The IAF's 49 Mirage-2000s, some of which were used to bomb the JeM facility at Balakot in Pakistan on February 26, are being upgraded under an overall programme worth Rs 17,547 crore. The programme was first finalised at Rs 10,947 crore with French companies Dassault Aviation and Thales in July 2011.

Then, a second Rs 6,600 crore contract for 490 advanced fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the Mirages was finalised with French armament major MBDA in early-2012. But the progress has been slow since then, with only about 10 Mirages being upgraded till now.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Flying Dagger]

I think if we are going with Russia for su-30mki update then we will use Russian radar. NIP 035 is used on su-35.
For asea there is zuhuk radar but it's not that great.

IAF has made it clear they'll go for AESA which is still in dev in Russia there is no point in paying again for that.

Zhuk isn't the option either.

They upgraded to al41 so that they have to maintain only one type of engine across their entire fleet of su30 and su35.

Al31 is powerful enough to support irbis E.

Al 41 is fuel efficient which Al 31 isn't and will provide thrust which will be required in AESA . AESA radar of su will require a lot power.

India need it too since in our climate we see decrease in thrust and the increase in fuel efficiency will help a lot.

The only problem that can originate is we have a license and exp in manufacturing Al 31 from raw materials now and then to move on to Al 41 will require new license and increase cost I guess.

 

[Armand2REP]

IAF has made it clear they'll go for AESA which is still in dev in Russia there is no point in paying again for that.

Zhuk isn't the option either.

Zhuk is too small for a Flanker. The only AESA they have is the one in the Su-57 and that has its own problems.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

SUPER SUKHOI UPDATE.

India has plans to upgrade the Sukhoi-30MKI with modern “radar and weapons capabilities and also enhance features that tackle obsolescence management and electronic warfare aspects”, Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria confirmed on Friday. An Air Force Veteran and senior defence analyst said the upgraded radar would likely be the NIIP N035 Irbis E (Snow Leopard), a 20 KW class steerable hybrid ESA radar fitted on the Su-35. “At full power, the radar can detect an F-35 at a distance of 58-km (36-mi), In tracking mode, the distance drops to 29km,” Vijainder K Thakur, Air Force veteran and defence analyst having hawk eyes on technological development said. Designed by the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute (NIIP) in Moscow’s Zhukovsky city, the Irbis-E is a direct evolution of the BARS design, all-weather multimode airborne radars of a Russian family, but significantly more powerful. The radar is cited at an average power rating of 5 kilowatts, with 2 kilowatts CW rating for illumination. The NIIP claim twice the bandwidth and improved frequency agility over the BARS, and better electronic counter-countermeasures capability. However, Harsh Vardhan Thakur, an experimental test pilot said: “When defining pick up and rack ranges for the F-35, the low-observability may have been exaggerated. I think F-35 can be picked up at larger ranges, just as a J-20 can.” It is expected that upgrading the Su-30MKI will not take much time as Russia already implemented significant upgrades including radar and engines on the Su-30SM which is in the service of the Russian Air Force. Vijainder K Thakur said Russia had integrated Su35 IRBIS-E Radar and AL-41F-C1 engines on a Su-30 airframe with the Su-30SM, which represents a convergence of the two platforms independently developed from the Su-27, aimed at mitigating logistics & maintenance overheads. In 2018, Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKI reportedly managed to detect the latest Chinese Chengdu J-20 jet fighter, supposed to be a top-of-the-line stealth aircraft operated by China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). J-20 fighter jets, as claimed by China, are made up of radar-absorbing materials that are supposed to make it hard to detect at long ranges. Earlier this month, the German radar-maker Hensoldt claimed that it managed to track two American made F-35s from a pony farm for almost 100 miles (about 150 km) during an air show, the C4ISRNet website reported. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI is a Russian-designed heavy, long-range fourth generation air superiority fighter, built under licence by India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The planes were introduced into the Indian Air Force in the early 2000s, with India making about 250 of the planes by 2018, and continuing to build more.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

POWER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN N011M & IRBIS - E

The second member of the Bars radar family is the N011M, a radar that uses an electronically scanned (phased array) slotted planar antenna but with the experience gained from the development of the N007 Zaslon. In an effort to improve performance the antenna design was changed to a multi-channel passive electronically scanned array (PESA). The design of the N011M Bars antenna like the earlier N007 antenna consists of two separate electronically controlled arrays, an X band radar and an L band IFF transponder with a total weight of 100 kg and a diameter of 960 mm.[1] The radar has a peak power output of 4-5 kW [2] and is capable of positioning beams in 400 microseconds,[1] a huge advantage over mechanically scanned radar. The Bars radar can be fixed in position to give a scanning sector of ±70 degrees in azimuth and ±45 degrees in elevation.[3] To improve scan coverage, the radar can also be mounted on electromechanical drives, and in this case, the scanning sector is expanded to ±90 degrees.

The 28 MHz Ts200 programmable signal processor used in N011M incorporates Fourier transforms of "butterfly" type capable of 75 Million operations per second. The N011M supports digital signal processing using 3 processors with 16 MB of both static and flash memory.[1] The peak output is 4 to 5 kW with an average output of 1.2 kW, and the total radar system weighs around 650 kg.

N035 Irbis-E (Snow Leopard) radar is the most powerful radar of Bars radar family, and it is a direct descendant of N011M, and it adopts many components of N011M to save cost and shorten the developmental time. The difference between N035 and its predecessor N011M is that the receiving channel is increased to 4 in N035 from the original 3 in N011M. A new transmitter EGSP-27 incorporated an upgraded version of Chelnok traveling wave tube that is capable of delivering 10 kW peak power output, resulting in the peak output of N035 increased to 20 kW, with an average output peak of 5 kW and continuous wave illumination of 2 kW. A new 5010-35.01 digital processor and a new 5010-35.02 info processor are used, and N035 has twice the bandwidth of N011M.

 

[vishnugupt]

Sorry guys for my view, but I always think there is something wrong in Su30 MKI airframe capacity. It is just large but not strong enough to take off load to full potential. Rafale looks like compact but still bulky with rigidly build material. It makes sense when just looking its picture. I am not endorsing Rafale. I am fan of both the aircrafts. It is not a direct comparison but I feel for a high-end medium aircraft, Rafale can carry more payload than high-end heavy aircraft MKI. That's why Rafale can carry more fuel drop tanks and beat MKI in range and combat radius despite of medium catagory. I think the metal strength is important. Su-30 mki airframe doesn't look more bulky or muscularly built. What I am conveying is if Rafale was built as large as MKI as an heavy fighter, it would have outclassed MKI in MTOW and loaded weight. My concern is only airframe. My view can be totally wrong. Please correct me where I am wrong.

does that look you a weak airframe??

 

[AnantS]

somebody said Sukhoi 30 mki is structurally weak?

 

[Wisemarko]

POWER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN N011M & IRBIS - E

The second member of the Bars radar family is the N011M, a radar that uses an electronically scanned (phased array) slotted planar antenna but with the experience gained from the development of the N007 Zaslon. In an effort to improve performance the antenna design was changed to a multi-channel passive electronically scanned array (PESA). The design of the N011M Bars antenna like the earlier N007 antenna consists of two separate electronically controlled arrays, an X band radar and an L band IFF transponder with a total weight of 100 kg and a diameter of 960 mm.[1] The radar has a peak power output of 4-5 kW [2] and is capable of positioning beams in 400 microseconds,[1] a huge advantage over mechanically scanned radar. The Bars radar can be fixed in position to give a scanning sector of ±70 degrees in azimuth and ±45 degrees in elevation.[3] To improve scan coverage, the radar can also be mounted on electromechanical drives, and in this case, the scanning sector is expanded to ±90 degrees.

The 28 MHz Ts200 programmable signal processor used in N011M incorporates Fourier transforms of "butterfly" type capable of 75 Million operations per second. The N011M supports digital signal processing using 3 processors with 16 MB of both static and flash memory.[1] The peak output is 4 to 5 kW with an average output of 1.2 kW, and the total radar system weighs around 650 kg.

N035 Irbis-E (Snow Leopard) radar is the most powerful radar of Bars radar family, and it is a direct descendant of N011M, and it adopts many components of N011M to save cost and shorten the developmental time. The difference between N035 and its predecessor N011M is that the receiving channel is increased to 4 in N035 from the original 3 in N011M. A new transmitter EGSP-27 incorporated an upgraded version of Chelnok traveling wave tube that is capable of delivering 10 kW peak power output, resulting in the peak output of N035 increased to 20 kW, with an average output peak of 5 kW and continuous wave illumination of 2 kW. A new 5010-35.01 digital processor and a new 5010-35.02 info processor are used, and N035 has twice the bandwidth of N011M.

That’s a very old data from Aussie source:
https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId773196

GaN technology is widely available commercially now and many of these parameters have changed significantly.

PESA Radar tech is already obsolete. India should only demand AESA Radar for SU-30 upgrade. Besides much better range and lifelong MTBF, AESA offer unparalleled LPI, ECCM, multimode operation as well as future EW and communication capabilities.

Mirage upgrade was done foolishly. Because without RB-2 AESA- IAF eliminated any future parity with F-16 upgrades which PAF most likely will receive.(All F-16 have AESA upgrades available since 2015 and newer ones come with AESA). India should seriously consider PAF F-16 with AESA and AMRAAM C7/D as a benchmark threat. Today only Rafale can match that threat and PESA upgrade of SU-30 will not be enough.

Also, long range AA missiles such as Meteor/ MICA-NG cannot be used to their full potential due to limited range of mechanical RDI Radar. While Su-30 PESA with low jamming resistance will have tough time getting firing solution for long range AA at extreme ranges.

I hope that this same mistake is not repeated with Sukhoi upgrade.

 

[bhramos]

The Indian Sukhoi jet that was supposedly ‘shot down’ by Pakistan makes a miraculous appearance at #AirForceDay parade

 

[Megalomaniac]

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[WolfPack86]

After Balakot success, IAF to integrate Spice 2000 bombs with Su30 MKI fighters

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The Indian Air Force is planning to integrate the Israeli Spice 2000 guidance kit-enabled bombs on board its front-line Russian-origin fighter aircraft Su30 MKI that will give a fillip to its offensive capabilities.

The IAF had used Spice 2000 bombs to successfully strike a Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camp in Pakistan’s Balakot in February this year.

Incidentally, this would be the second non-Russian and non-indigenous weapon to be integrated with the Su30 MKI.

Much to the discomfort of Russia, IAF is already integrating the British Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) . The missile is manufactured by European firm MBDA.

Multiple Russian sources that ThePrint spoke to have said they have not been taken into confidence regarding the integration of the British missile.

The fresh move to integrate the Spice 2000 will add to the Russian discomfort.

‘More potency and options’

IAF sources said the force is trying to standardise weapons across its fleet.

“This makes sense from having a common doctrinal approach and commercially viable. Also, options open up manyfold,” an IAF source told ThePrint.

India has already integrated the Indo-Russian joint venture product — BrahMos supersonic cruise missile — on board the Su30 MKI.

The IAF earlier this year inked a Rs 300-crore deal with Israel for the new set of Spice bombs.

“The Spice 2000 on board the Sukhois will give us much more potency and options,” an official said, noting that only the Mirages can currently fire them.

On February 26 this year, five Spice 2000 bombs fired from the French Mirage 2000s successfully struck a Jaish terror camp in Balakot.

Each Spice 2000 bomb weighs about 1,000 kg and has a range of close to about 100 km.

The newly ordered Spice bombs are an advanced version of Spice 2000 bombs used by the IAF during the Balakot air strikes.

The Spice 2000 uses a Digital Scene Matching Area Correlator (DSMAC) technology, which automatically matches the target, as it zooms in, with the image that has been pre-fed, besides the GPS coordinates.

The smart bomb can be used day or night, and also has anti-GPS jammer, which means the GPS homing technology cannot be jammed by the enemy.

Spice 2000 consists of an add-on kit for warheads such as the MK-84, BLU-109, APW and RAP-2000.

IAF is acquiring the bunker buster or the building destroyer version with Mark 84 warhead which can decimate targeted buildings.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Armand2REP]

Each Spice 2000 bomb weighs about 1,000 kg and has a range of close to about 100 km.

A glide bomb going 100km = :bs:

 

[IndianHawk]

India should seriously consider PAF F-16 with AESA and AMRAAM C7/D as a benchmark threat

Upgrade f16 with aesa and procuring c7/d aam will push Pakistan closer to bankruptcy unless USA subsidies it . And if USA subsidies it USA can say goodbye to a lot of lucrative Indian defense business. Also since USA has nothing better than aim 120d in its wider arsenal giving that capability to Pakistan and hence china would be foolhardy.

Even if su30 doesn't get aesa it will still get aesa based jammers from either Israel or indegenios development. It can already jam out aam c5 . Don't think c7/d would perform any better against aesa jammer equiped su30.