Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[IndianHawk]

The IAF and HAL both need to wake up and understand that trying to integrate disparate systems from multitude of sources is a brainless exercise. Too much time and money has been spent on trying to get russian radar to talk to french misson computer to give readouts on Israeli instruments and launch hodge podge of Russian, Indian, Israeli and even British weapons.

There's no good reason the local SU-30 costs 750 crores even today while Russians sell theirs for 250 crores. It's a criminal waste of money

Where did you get 250cr figure that's hard to believe. Indian su30 cost more because of license and materials sourcing from Russia but not that much .

 

[Lancer]

Air Force chief backs indigenous production of 5th generation jets



Finally da gormint appointed someone who is in sync.

There will likely be some amount of knowledge/experience from LCA that comes in handy. And it's good to aim for this project to be a success, but one very crucial intermediary step (both for the IAF to be in a good position, and for AMCA to be a success) - is to order a few "off-shelf" squadrons of PAK-FA's once they're ready.

We can always customize them (regardless of how the Russians feel, we should quietly work w/ Israelis on it); and in turn, it'll immediately give us our first true stealth fighter (very important for taking on China especially), while also giving us valuable experience and knowledge of stealth tech etc that could help make AMCA better/more deadly.

 

[uoftotaku]

Where did you get 250cr figure that's hard to believe. Indian su30 cost more because of license and materials sourcing from Russia but not that much .

That is cost paid for all the MKI's built by UAC for the IAF. As per the original contract, out of 272 aircraft ordered, HAL has built 180. Rest all have been fully imported especially at early stage. The original cooperative agreement has allocation for upto 350 MKI's for a fixed price.

 

[uoftotaku]

Bdw mica ir...a bvr.
R73 replaced magic2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-french-mirage-2000-fly-with-russian-r-73-missiles-thanks-to-israeli-jugaad-2067318?amp=1&akamai-rum=off
Mica-ir......is there for some reason.....
When astra ir comes we will replace them

Mica-IR is a CCM missile with near BVR capabilities. Same as the Python 5 and R73E.

Unless you're trying to suggest that the French AF send their Rafale's and Mirages into combat for last 10 years without any CCM missile since Magic series has long been retired

 

[Armand2REP]

There's no good reason the local SU-30 costs 750 crores even today while Russians sell theirs for 250 crores. It's a criminal waste of money

These are the last figures I saw...

HAL produces about 12 Su-30MKI multirole fighters each year. The company is expected to complete the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI fighters by March 2020.

Each Su-30MKI is built by HAL for $70.3 million under license by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation.

Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defence that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision.

A senior Air Force official said the service could only order 18 fighters as a response to the number of Su-30MKI jets lost in accidents over the last two decades.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

It looks like they capped the number to 12 for accident replacement. That should keep the assembly line going until March 2021.

 

[Megalomaniac]

Sorry guys for my view, but I always think there is something wrong in Su30 MKI airframe capacity. It is just large but not strong enough to take off load to full potential. Rafale looks like compact but still bulky with rigidly build material. It makes sense when just looking its picture. I am not endorsing Rafale. I am fan of both the aircrafts. It is not a direct comparison but I feel for a high-end medium aircraft, Rafale can carry more payload than high-end heavy aircraft MKI. That's why Rafale can carry more fuel drop tanks and beat MKI in range and combat radius despite of medium catagory. I think the metal strength is important. Su-30 mki airframe doesn't look more bulky or muscularly built. What I am conveying is if Rafale was built as large as MKI as an heavy fighter, it would have outclassed MKI in MTOW and loaded weight. My concern is only airframe. My view can be totally wrong. Please correct me where I am wrong.

 

[Flying Dagger]

That is cost paid for all the MKI's built by UAC for the IAF. As per the original contract, out of 272 aircraft ordered, HAL has built 180. Rest all have been fully imported especially at early stage. The original cooperative agreement has allocation for upto 350 MKI's for a fixed price.

Not true no such deal was signed for fixed price. Else we would have got Su instead of getting old refurbished mig 29k for 40 million a piece. I mean 35 million for Sukhoi 30 who won't buy it specially IAF?

Mica-IR is a CCM missile with near BVR capabilities. Same as the Python 5 and R73E.

Unless you're trying to suggest that the French AF send their Rafale's and Mirages into combat for last 10 years without any CCM missile since Magic series has long been retired

There are two MICA infrared/heat seeking and radar guided . Both have CCM and mid range BVR capability. 500m - 80 km That is the reason it is pretty expensive too.

Meteor is the missile planned to provide Rafale True long range BVR capability.

 

[IndianHawk]

These are the last figures I saw...

HAL produces about 12 Su-30MKI multirole fighters each year. The company is expected to complete the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI fighters by March 2020.

Each Su-30MKI is built by HAL for $70.3 million under license by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation.

Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defence that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision.

A senior Air Force official said the service could only order 18 fighters as a response to the number of Su-30MKI jets lost in accidents over the last two decades.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/

It looks like they capped the number to 12 for accident replacement. That should keep the assembly line going until March 2021.

This 70 million figure is more accurate. It translates to 500cr per su30 MKI.

Also Russia sells su35 at about 100 million a piece. While mig35/29smt are offered at 50-60 million per unit.
Su30 even for Russia must cost in-between the two figures.

That is cost paid for all the MKI's built by UAC for the IAF. As per the original contract, out of 272 aircraft ordered, HAL has built 180. Rest all have been fully imported especially at early stage. The original cooperative agreement has allocation for upto 350 MKI's for a fixed price.

 

[IndianHawk]

Sorry guys for my view, but I always think there is something wrong in Su30 MKI airframe capacity. It is just large but not strong enough to take off load to full potential. Rafale looks like compact but still bulky with rigidly build material. It makes sense when just looking its picture. I am not endorsing Rafale. I am fan of both the aircrafts. It is not a direct comparison but I feel for a high-end medium aircraft, Rafale can carry more payload than high-end heavy aircraft MKI. That's why Rafale can carry more fuel drop tanks and beat MKI in range and combat radius despite of medium catagory. I think the metal strength is important. Su-30 mki airframe doesn't look more bulky or muscularly built. What I am conveying is if Rafale was built as large as MKI as an heavy fighter, it would have outclassed MKI in MTOW and loaded weight. My concern is only airframe. My view can be totally wrong. Please correct me where I am wrong.

You are misinformed. Su30mki carries far more than rafale.

While external payload for rafale is slightly higher su30mki carries more than double the internal fuel than rafale. ( Rafale about 4ton fuel su30mki 9ton).

This huge reserve of internal fuel allows su30 to fly much further than rafale even when carrying same payload as rafale .

Su30 can fly 3000km without any external tank and without refueling.

Also su30mki can carry bramhos with 2500kg weight at its belly.

 

[Armand2REP]

This huge reserve of internal fuel allows su30 to fly much further than rafale even when carrying same payload as rafale .

The AL-31F in tropical latitudes is very fuel inefficient which reduces range to several times less than the Rafale.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Hmm.... means with same size and same powered AESA it can see it even after RAM coating.

 

[Megalomaniac]

You are misinformed. Su30mki carries far more than rafale.

While external payload for rafale is slightly higher su30mki carries more than double the internal fuel than rafale. ( Rafale about 4ton fuel su30mki 9ton).

This huge reserve of internal fuel allows su30 to fly much further than rafale even when carrying same payload as rafale .

Su30 can fly 3000km without any external tank and without refueling.

Also su30mki can carry bramhos with 2500kg weight at its belly.

I already said it was not a direct comparison. MKI obviously can carry more as it is a heavy fighter. But when compared weight per weight, then the concern rises. MKI have other advantages too.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

MANEUVERABLE BEAST.
..........

 

[IndianHawk]

The AL-31F in tropical latitudes is very fuel inefficient which reduces range to several times less than the Rafale.

Despite al31 rafale can't match su30 range in any environment without external tanks which then reduce rafale weapons payload.

 

[IndianHawk]

I already said it was not a direct comparison. MKI obviously can carry more as it is a heavy fighter. But when compared weight per weight, then the concern rises. MKI have other advantages too.

Su30 MKI carries 12 ton internal fuel + 8ton weapons = 18 ton with mtow of 38 ton as per HAL and Wikipedia.

Rafale carries 4700 kg internal fuel + 9500kg weapons payload ( external)= total = 14.2 ton for mtow of 25 ton.

So su30 compromises some payload for more range. That is design choice by Russia as they have huge geographic terrain to cover . Su30 also is faster than rafale at mach2.

Su30mki can also refuel other aircrafts like lca , mirage , mig29 in air and yet can travel as far as fully fueled rafale. It's designed for endurance.

With external fuel tank and external refueling su30 MKI can cover as much as 8000km with 10 hours of endurance!!

Both are fantastic beats but are designed with different geography and profile in mind.

 

[IndianHawk]

Hmm.... means with same size and same powered AESA it can see it even after RAM coating.

A su30 sized aesa would be very very powerful but it's power draw would perhaps require al41 engine upgrade.

 

[Armand2REP]

Su30 MKI carries 12 ton internal fuel

Quoting the stats for Su-34 isn't going to change the fact it is only 9.640kg. That is also its max fuel load as it does not have connections for external tanks. Page 2 will explain it all...

https://aviationweek.com/site-files...s/uploads/2014/11/asd_11_14_2014_Flanker6.pdf

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Rafale fuel consumption is half of the MKI.

 

[IndianHawk]

Quoting the stats for Su-34 isn't going to change the fact it is only 9.640kg. That is also its max fuel load as it does not have connections for external tanks. Page 2 will explain it all...

https://aviationweek.com/site-files...s/uploads/2014/11/asd_11_14_2014_Flanker6.pdf

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Rafale fuel consumption is half of the MKI.

You didn't even read my post ! I have included a slide from HAL which manufactures su30MKI.

Rafale consumption is less because Rafale top speed is also limited compared to su30. If you want fair comparison you must either increase rafale performance ( top speed ) or decrease su30 performance .

 

[Armand2REP]

You didn't even read my post ! I have included a slide from HAL which manufactures su30MKI.

The slide reads like it was written by a 5yr old. The max fuel capacity of all Su-30s is under 10t.

Rafale consumption is less because Rafale top speed is also limited compared to su30. If you want fair comparison you must either increase rafale performance ( top speed ) or decrease su30 performance .

Rafale weighs nearly half of the MKI so it stands to reason it would use far less fuel.

 

[Wisemarko]

PAF is in discussion with vendors to upgrade F-16 with AESA. Likely SABR from NG.