Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

Infrared signature is part of low observability, everyone likes to forget that when talking about F-22 that has a glaring weakness in the infrared spectrum.

If Super 30 includes an AESA radar I will be more than happy to bump that up to 4.5.

F-35 can't maintain Mach speeds on military thrust for more than 150 miles = no super cruise.

Every aircraft comes up short in some way. The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run.

F-22 hardly ever uses it's burner (except for air shows or take offs) and at regular thrust levels it's IR signature is better than the Rafales. Stop garbage fake news. You seem to forget the F-22 even at 80% thrust levels can easily go over mach 1.5, top super cruise speeds of the Raptor are over mach 1.80

The F-35 doesn't have to super cruise to be capable much like the MKI.

The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run.

So what evidence do you have to present for this retarded statement?

 

[Armand2REP]

The F-35 doesn't have to super cruise to be capable much like the MKI.

The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run.

So what evidence do you have to present for this retarded statement?

They are both capable, but less capable than Rafale who can super cruise which is a requirement for 5th gen.

That quote came from a GOA report telling Congress the F-35 was a trillion dollar turd.

 

[BON PLAN]

So? Rafales don't come for free. They are pretty expensive. We have 270+ Su-30 MKIs. We have to upgrade them And these features will be in the upgraded version. Its just a question of when.

Yes, Rafale is not free.
But your list of the MKI upgrades is long.... How old are the oldest? (if old, the question may be : isn't it more intersting to purchase new planes? Su35? instead of improving old ones by simply keeping the frame)

 

[BON PLAN]

1) Low Observability
2) Super Cruise w/combat load
3) AESA radar
4) inegrated solid state EW system
5) Advanced situational awareness

The LM définition was if I remember well :
-Affordable,
-Agile (= or > F16),
-Sensor fusion,
-Super cruising,
-Stealthy,

No mention of AESA nor quality of EW system.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafales have some critical abilities that mki dont have currently.

Its avionics is next gen with internal Spectra ew suite,sensor fusion,aesa radar.mki doesnt even have MAWS or internal jammer.

Its bvr capabilities are a leap ahead with meteor which is best bvr in the world.

It has far lesser rcs than su30mki.
It is optimized for penetration of eneny defenses and can do low level flight as well which bars radar in sukhoi cant do.
Due to its less rcs,superb EW and standoff munitions like storm shadow and ALARM anti radiation missile its perfect plane for SEAD/DEAD and surgical strikes.

Sukhoi 30 mki will get these features after super upgrade from 2021-
X band aesa version of Bars PESA radar.
New IRST tracker( same one as in su57)
Cockpit optimizations
New indian EW suite with maws,rwr etc.
Ability to launch chaff decoys as well as existing flares.
New israeli datalink and jam proof radios.
Al 41 engines ( same as in su 35)
New bvr aam k77m and set of groubd attack ordnance incl spice 2000 and crystal maze.As well as air launched brahmos ng.
Wvr will be Asraam( integration ongoing)

The new radar will allow ground hugging ops as well.
Only after these upgrades super sukhoi can be similar to rafale even though it will still lack sophistication of spectra,the raw range of meteor and rcs.

No ALARM integrated on Rafale so far....
And ALARM is no more in production.

 

[BON PLAN]

Low observability has generally been accepted as having RCS of < 0.1 m^2. Its why both the Rafale and Tejas are firmly 4.5 gen.

Tejas was never studied with Stealth in mind ! Just look the air intakes, all the excrescence on the frame, the cockpit bubble is not thin layer gold protected....

 

[BON PLAN]

The F-35 has better sensor fusion than the Rafale and is more stealthy.

Well.... The F35 sensor fusion doesn't work yet. Maybe to morrow....
More stealthy? Yes. But far low evolutionary. And even in air to air mission, it has to carry its huge frontal area frame : it is slow accelerating and fat in manoeuver except in the vertical plan. A turkey. Don't remember that it was studied for air to ground mission (to replace Marines Harrier, Air Force A10 and F16 in CAS mission) , never as a real fighter.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Yes, Rafale is not free.
But your list of the MKI upgrades is long.... How old are the oldest? (if old, the question may be : isn't it more intersting to purchase new planes? Su35? instead of improving old ones by simply keeping the frame)

That's very silly. Every Air Force (USAF included) will try to get the most out of an airframe. The F-16s which the USAF operate were first introduced in 1978. They have since been upgraded repeatedly. Same will happen with French Rafales and any other plane with a good airframe. Do note that the F-16s underwent similar upgrades, and so did the F-15s.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Well.... The F35 sensor fusion doesn't work yet. Maybe to morrow....
More stealthy? Yes. But far low evolutionary. And even in air to air mission, it has to carry its huge frontal area frame : it is slow accelerating and fat in manoeuver except in the vertical plan. A turkey. Don't remember that it was studied for air to ground mission (to replace Marines Harrier, Air Force A10 and F16 in CAS mission) , never as a real fighter.

Doesn't work according to who? I've yet to see any news of the same. It was meant as a strike fighter. That means it targets ground air defences and other systems. That was the plan all along. To add to this it has a very good data link to it has solid mini-awacs capabilities. That is a massive plus in a war field. For air superiority the Americans always intended to use the F-22 or the F/A-18E/F.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Tejas was never studied with Stealth in mind ! Just look the air intakes, all the excrescence on the frame, the cockpit bubble is not thin layer gold protected....

The air intakes are a Y-duct which hides the blades of the engine. Your beloved Rafale does something similar with S-ducts. The publically available figures for Tejas RCS ranges from 0.3-0.5 m^2.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

The LM définition was if I remember well :
-Affordable,
-Agile (= or > F16),
-Sensor fusion,
-Super cruising,
-Stealthy,

No mention of AESA nor quality of EW system.

LM never made the definition of 5th gen. That came from the Pentagon, with the ATF program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Tactical_Fighter#Background

The main concepts were stealth, super cruise, and STOL. However most have come to agree that the main "force multiplying" features of 5th gen comes from stealth and sensor fusion.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Can you please decide which side you are on in terms of what happened that day?
As you said before sukhoi failed and now this a complete U-turn .

Though this post is more sensible .
I think it was both F 16's with porks flying them ran like rats once they saw those sukhoi 30s and fired all their missiles and hence sukhois were busy escaping those . Also our pilots might have decided not to fire due to porks being out of NEZ rather than ROE.

Chill Rafale is coming anyway what we need is low-cost option with BVRAAM missile like meteor and adequate no. of Netra and phalcons SFDR and Astra mk2 will be game changer

Tejas will do the job once inducted in numbers.

I am not the one who said Su30 failed. I only said that India chose not to fire in order to avoid escalation. Don't put words in my mouth.

pffffff.....
last M2000 ae FBW, has a modern multirole radar (RDY 1 or 2), and the onboard computer of the Rafale (EMTI).

The radaria not exactly modern. As well, the LRU and avionics is not modern

You call M2000 3.5 generation when it was more advanced than the 4th gen F-16... your statement doesn't make sense. I don't think you understand how rudimentary the first F-16 was.

F16 was not 4th generation when it came out. It became 4th generation with inclusion of various other items like advanced avionics, sensors, MAWS, EW etc. Mirage 2000, on the other hand,is not as upgraded as F16 and hence is 3.5 gen

The characteristics of a 5th generation fighter are as follows...

1) Low Observability
2) Super Cruise w/combat load
3) AESA radar
4) inegrated solid state EW system
5) Advanced situational awareness

F35 does not have super cruise but is 5th generation. I mentioned all other aspects.

You left out Low Observability and Super Cruise which are the two key characteristics of 5th gen. Rafale can both Super Cruise and maintain Low Observability. The IR signature of the Rafale is lower than any other fighter while its RCS from the top down makes it near impossible to detect running a terrain hugging profile as it was designed. You will say that it isn't all aspect stealth, but then neither is F-22 that can be seen much easier in the IR spectrum.

I specifically mentioned "stealth". I did not mention low observability separate from stealth. The difference between 4th and 5th generation is mainly in AESA, Stealth, AI (sensor fusion), EW & other electronics.

It is definitely 4th gen, it would be hard to call it 4.5 gen without AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced Situational Awareness or Low Observability.

Super cruise is unnecessary. Neither Rafale has super cruise with combat load nor does F35. Super Su30 will get AESA and other electronics upgrade and will be 4.5 generation after that

Is the Super 30 upgrade going to give it AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced SA or LO? It will definitely give it super cruise so 4.25 at least

LO makes Su30 5th generation. So, for 4.5 generation, just AESA, EW & Avionics upgrade will do

The SCAF is pretty well defined, the US has yet to define theirs but it looks like they will copy SCAF. The problem for the US is that they are stuck with a $1 trillion turd.

What is the specifications of SCAF and how is it better than F22 & F35 that makes it 6th generation? What exactly is upgraded to make it 6th generation?

The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run

That is a bit overstatement. Rafale doesn't have the large internal fuel, internal bays or the stealth if F35

Yes, Rafale is not free.
But your list of the MKI upgrades is long.... How old are the oldest? (if old, the question may be : isn't it more intersting to purchase new planes? Su35? instead of improving old ones by simply keeping the frame)

We don't see a need to buy Su35 when Su30 is doing good. Su35 has composites airframe and Al41F engines but India already has indigenised the Su30 airframe & engine due to which it is imprudent to go for imports of Su35

Tejas was never studied with Stealth in mind ! Just look the air intakes, all the excrescence on the frame, the cockpit bubble is not thin layer gold protected

Everyone makes a quick check if RCS. That is why there is Y intake. For that matter, Rafale was also not designed for stealth but only improvised in the last stage for some stealth

 

[neeraj_]

OK I think there is a misunderstanding here. 4 Su-30 MKIs were present. However 2 were at the edge of their endurance so were returning to base. 2 were still on CAP duty. Nobody puts 10-15 planes on CAP duty at once. That's insane. 2-4 is the normal count and acceptable.

We had the MiG 21s already in ORP. They are interceptors. They are the planes the IAF is supposed to send. That was the plan all along. There is no other platform that the IAF uses as of now in the interceptor role in the same way. See also Cope 2004. The IAF has found an optimal use for the MiG 21 platform.

The PAF failed to destroy the military establishments. That is a failure. They failed their mission. Why? Because the IAF was successful in its defence of Indian air space.

The 2 Su-30 MKIs + 6 MiG 21 Bisons + 2 Mirage 2000s were enough to repel 24 PAF fighters. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means 10 IAF fighters repelled 24 PAF fighters. In what world is that a failure? Success is not when we down the enemy planes only. That day our success was in preventing the PAF from bombing military establishments. That was the IAF goal and they achieved it. The PAF failed to achieve their goal.

The DG ISPR managed to spin the narrative the other way around by focusing on the fact that they downed a MiG 21 Bison and had captured the Wing Commander.

1. 2 sukhoi were already there True
2.in peace time generally 2 fighters in every squadron are always ready to be in the air within minutes to intercept the invading aircrafts.

3. We weren't in peacetime infact IAF went inside porks region and bombed their territory . It was expected that PAF will try to invade. Even then we weren't prepared to have more aircraft ready.

Let me remind you it wasn't a peacetime scenario .

So what happened from every squadron nearby 2 fighters were airborne . 2 sukhoi 2 Mirage and 2 -4 Bisons . While ideally we should have more aircrafts in the air. That could have been done by having more than 2 aircrafts ready to be in the air specially when you knew they will attack.

3. And so yes it's a failure.

4. I do not wish to reveal but we were lucky to survive the attack with no major loss .

Thankfully Indian Army is retaliating well on the border atleast .

 

[Picard]

Just my 2c....

F35 does not have super cruise but is 5th generation. I mentioned all other aspects.

F-35 is a 5th generation strike fighter. That is an important point - it is not an air superiority fighter.

I specifically mentioned "stealth". I did not mention low observability separate from stealth. The difference between 4th and 5th generation is mainly in AESA, Stealth, AI (sensor fusion), EW & other electronics.

"Stealth" is much more than just radar cross section. It is an operational concept, and in my view, a truly stealthy aircraft will be stealthy from before takeoff to after landing. Basically, it would have:
- ability to operate from hidden/concealed mobile bases (e.g. road bases, tunnels)
- significant passive sensors capability
- low radar cross section
- low IR signature
- low logistics signature

Super cruise is unnecessary. Neither Rafale has super cruise with combat load nor does F35. Super Su30 will get AESA and other electronics upgrade and will be 4.5 generation after that

IIRC, Rafale can supercruise at Mach 1,4 with 6 missiles.

 

[BON PLAN]

Doesn't work according to who? I've yet to see any news of the same. It was meant as a strike fighter. That means it targets ground air defences and other systems. That was the plan all along. To add to this it has a very good data link to it has solid mini-awacs capabilities. That is a massive plus in a war field. For air superiority the Americans always intended to use the F-22 or the F/A-18E/F.

The F35 is as for now unable to target a moving ground target. So before fusionning the sensors, they have to work well before....
Mini awacs? Absolutely not. It has a sole radar antenna so can watch only a 140° field. As Rafale. And it's IR sensor are not as effective it can see at such a range.
It as, at best, a node for communication. Something a drone does perfectly.

 

[BON PLAN]

The air intakes are a Y-duct which hides the blades of the engine. Your beloved Rafale does something similar with S-ducts. The publically available figures for Tejas RCS ranges from 0.3-0.5 m^2.

No, I was not speaking of the S duct, but of the shape and the location of the air intake lips.

 

[BON PLAN]

The radaria not exactly modern. As well, the LRU and avionics is not modern

A non AESA radar is not a worst one. It only can't make simultaneous things at the same time, is less reliable, has a lenghtier scan mode....
But a classical radar was largely enough for Israeli pilots on F16 and F15 to achieve a lot of kills in air and on ground.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale was also not designed for stealth but only improvised in the last stage for some stealth

Wrong.
Rafale C, the serial model, has a RCS secret target in its R&D objectives.
Rafale A, the test bed for close coupled canards and new materials was not studed with RCS in mind.
This is why there is absolutely no common shape between the two, even if the familly air remain (as F18 vs SH18)

 

[neeraj_]

OK I think there is a misunderstanding here. 4 Su-30 MKIs were present. However 2 were at the edge of their endurance so were returning to base. 2 were still on CAP duty. Nobody puts 10-15 planes on CAP duty at once. That's insane. 2-4 is the normal count and acceptable.

We had the MiG 21s already in ORP. They are interceptors. They are the planes the IAF is supposed to send. That was the plan all along. There is no other platform that the IAF uses as of now in the interceptor role in the same way. See also Cope 2004. The IAF has found an optimal use for the MiG 21 platform.

The PAF failed to destroy the military establishments. That is a failure. They failed their mission. Why? Because the IAF was successful in its defence of Indian air space.

The 2 Su-30 MKIs + 6 MiG 21 Bisons + 2 Mirage 2000s were enough to repel 24 PAF fighters. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means 10 IAF fighters repelled 24 PAF fighters. In what world is that a failure? Success is not when we down the enemy planes only. That day our success was in preventing the PAF from bombing military establishments. That was the IAF goal and they achieved it. The PAF failed to achieve their goal.

The DG ISPR managed to spin the narrative the other way around by focusing on the fact that they downed a MiG 21 Bison and had captured the Wing Commander.

I always wonder just for the sake of it people are ready to post anything gibberish.

1. 2 sukhoi were already there True
2.in peace time generally 2 fighters in every squadron are always ready to be in the air within minutes to intercept the invading aircrafts.

3. We weren't in peacetime infact IAF went inside porks region and bombed their territory . It was expected that PAF will try to invade. Even then we weren't prepared to have more aircraft ready.

Let me remind you it wasn't a peacetime scenario .

So what happened from every squadron nearby 2 fighters were airborne . 2 sukhoi 2 Mirage and 2 -4 Bisons . While ideally we should have more aircrafts in the air. That could have been done by having more than 2 aircrafts / squadron ready to be in the air

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Just my 2c....



F-35 is a 5th generation strike fighter. That is an important point - it is not an air superiority fighter.



"Stealth" is much more than just radar cross section. It is an operational concept, and in my view, a truly stealthy aircraft will be stealthy from before takeoff to after landing. Basically, it would have:
- ability to operate from hidden/concealed mobile bases (e.g. road bases, tunnels)
- significant passive sensors capability
- low radar cross section
- low IR signature
- low logistics signature



IIRC, Rafale can supercruise at Mach 1,4 with 6 missiles.

Rafale can't supercruise. It can supercruise at half tank with 2 AAM missiles. This is not supercruise in real scenario.

Also, about stealth operations from hidden bases and concealed logistics,unless there is STOVL, it is very difficult. Only F35B has STOVL and that too is having problems.

Wrong.
Rafale C, the serial model, has a RCS secret target in its R&D objectives.
Rafale A, the test bed for close coupled canards and new materials was not studed with RCS in mind.
This is why there is absolutely no common shape between the two, even if the familly air remain (as F18 vs SH18)

The Rafale C did get upgraded into partial stealth but nevertheless, it is not low observable. The general design of Rafale A & Rafale C remained same. The main aspects like stealth shaping of wings, removal of canards etc were not done. Also, Rafale stealth is somewhat over-rated as the Spectra EW suite adds some stealth by jamming. But it is not real stealth on its own.