Know Your 'Rafale'

Advaidhya Tiwari

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I always wonder just for the sake of it people are ready to post anything gibberish.

1. 2 sukhoi were already there True
2.in peace time generally 2 fighters in every squadron are always ready to be in the air within minutes to intercept the invading aircrafts.

3. We weren't in peacetime infact IAF went inside porks region and bombed their territory . It was expected that PAF will try to invade. Even then we weren't prepared to have more aircraft ready.

Let me remind you it wasn't a peacetime scenario .

So what happened from every squadron nearby 2 fighters were airborne . 2 sukhoi 2 Mirage and 2 -4 Bisons . While ideally we should have more aircrafts in the air. That could have been done by having more than 2 aircrafts / squadron ready to be in the air
Do you expect IAF to defend a square inch of LOC under restricted condition? It can only protect if there is no restrictions on shooting down planes across LoC. Pakistani planes crossed into LOC for about 2km and then dropped payload and fled. This takes hardly 5 seconds which is very difficult to stop. So, whatever was done, was done correctly
 

Picard

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Rafale can't supercruise. It can supercruise at half tank with 2 AAM missiles. This is not supercruise in real scenario.
Four missiles plus belly drop tank, actually.


Also, if memory serves me, it can achieve Mach 1,3 in that configuration, and Mach 1,4 with 4-6 missiles and no drop tank. That is a useful configuration for air combat, though if you are looking for BVR engagement, you'd do better with 12 - 14 missiles or so.

Also, about stealth operations from hidden bases and concealed logistics,unless there is STOVL, it is very difficult. Only F35B has STOVL and that too is having problems.
Wrong, operations from hidden bases have nothing to do with STOVL. VTOL can help a lot, but STOVL is about as useful as STOL for those purposes - such bases will not have jump ramp to facilitate STOVL aircraft.
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Why is F 35 being compared to rafale.With f35 project you have no autonomy as us can pull the plug anytime,its maintainence cost is huge .We will never get f35 so the comparison is moot.Our primary concern should be how it stacks up against chinese fighters.
 

Armand2REP

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I am not the one who said Su30 failed. I only said that India chose not to fire in order to avoid escalation. Don't put words in my mouth.
There is no reason to deny what you said. MKI was purchased to shoot down Puki F-16s and it finally had its chance.

F16 was not 4th generation when it came out. It became 4th generation with inclusion of various other items like advanced avionics, sensors, MAWS, EW etc. Mirage 2000, on the other hand,is not as upgraded as F16 and hence is 3.5 gen
How do you say the aircraft that defined 4th generation was not 4th generation? According to your definition the only F-16 that was 4th gen was the Block 50/52, that means the M2000-5 is easily 4th generation even by your own definition.

I specifically mentioned "stealth". I did not mention low observability separate from stealth. The difference between 4th and 5th generation is mainly in AESA, Stealth, AI (sensor fusion), EW & other electronics.
Low Observability is stealth, in both the radar and infrared. That is what the MICA IR does, it gives the ability to shoot down an F-22 at BVR ranges.

Super cruise is unnecessary. Neither Rafale has super cruise with combat load nor does F35. Super Su30 will get AESA and other electronics upgrade and will be 4.5 generation after that
If you have a CAP patrolling the Chinese border, how do you expect it to intercept Porki aircraft in another region without supercruise?

This is like the 4th time you have claimed the Rafale cannot supercruise but the FOX 3 magazine already told you it can supercruise with a 2000 litre drop tank and several missiles. How much more proof do you need?

LO makes Su30 5th generation. So, for 4.5 generation, just AESA, EW & Avionics upgrade will do
I don't know how you make a Su-30 LO when it has the RCS of a double-decker bus.

What is the specifications of SCAF and how is it better than F22 & F35 that makes it 6th generation? What exactly is upgraded to make it 6th generation?
I told you in the post that you butcher quoted so why don't you go back and look at it.

That is a bit overstatement. Rafale doesn't have the large internal fuel, internal bays or the stealth if F35
The GOA has already called it a turd because 90% of the missions will require it to have external stores. Once you add external stores to the F-35 it is vastly inferior to Rafale in all flight regimes.
 

gryphus-scarface

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Well.... The F35 sensor fusion doesn't work yet. Maybe to morrow....
More stealthy? Yes. But far low evolutionary. And even in air to air mission, it has to carry its huge frontal area frame : it is slow accelerating and fat in manoeuver except in the vertical plan. A turkey. Don't remember that it was studied for air to ground mission (to replace Marines Harrier, Air Force A10 and F16 in CAS mission) , never as a real fighter.
[citation needed]
You claim that stealth of the F-35 is lower than the Rafale? The F-35 may have a larger area but look closer at the photos. See how the surfaces are all sharp and angled? That is intentional. It allows the incoming radar signals to be deflected in directions away from the source. Remember the F-22 is much larger yet has a lower frontal RCS than the Rafale.
Also the USAF doesn't intend to use the F-35 as an air superiority plane. Its intended to be used as a "strike fighter". Hence the name Joint Strike Fighter. See the wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_fighter
 

gryphus-scarface

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Wrong.
Rafale C, the serial model, has a RCS secret target in its R&D objectives.
Rafale A, the test bed for close coupled canards and new materials was not studed with RCS in mind.
This is why there is absolutely no common shape between the two, even if the familly air remain (as F18 vs SH18)
[citation needed]
So the Rafale A was not studied with RCS in mind, but the Rafale C magically has an RCS that's very low? That's not how things work. The Rafale was always meant to have a low RCS compared to traditional 4 gen frames. The French realised that maintaining and designing full stealth air frames at that time would be too expensive, so they figured they would reduce it as far as feasible. The result is the Rafale.

It has some features that reduce RCS but nothing that pushes it all the way to all aspect stealth. The way you say it makes it sound like the Rafale is the wonder weapon the world has been waiting for.
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Everyone just ignoring how critical Spectra and sensor fusion are as assets in rafale.Spectra is 30% of cost of rafale.It beat s300pmu2 eadily when other nato aircraft struggled in mace exercises with ex soviet now nato country.
 

Steven Rogers

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Well.... The F35 sensor fusion doesn't work yet. Maybe to morrow....
More stealthy? Yes. But far low evolutionary. And even in air to air mission, it has to carry its huge frontal area frame : it is slow accelerating and fat in manoeuver except in the vertical plan. A turkey. Don't remember that it was studied for air to ground mission (to replace Marines Harrier, Air Force A10 and F16 in CAS mission) , never as a real fighter.
F35 has better sensor fusion than any 4th gen aircraft . Since its engine gathers all the information from all sensors and fuses it for the best possible outcome while others engines on 4th gen aircraft gather the best possible data from an individual sensor thus it is slow compared to the f35.
 

Steven Rogers

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Everyone just ignoring how critical Spectra and sensor fusion are as assets in rafale.Spectra is 30% of cost of rafale.It beat s300pmu2 eadily when other nato aircraft struggled in mace exercises with ex soviet now nato country.
Spectra should also be tested against the AESA radars and against multiple frequencies operating at the same time.
 

Steven Rogers

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Wrong.
Rafale C, the serial model, has a RCS secret target in its R&D objectives.
Rafale A, the test bed for close coupled canards and new materials was not studed with RCS in mind.
This is why there is absolutely no common shape between the two, even if the familly air remain (as F18 vs SH18)
If that the case ,rafale shouldn't have those round intakes,and those round engine nozzles ,and single vertical tail with no symmetry with the body.
 

Picard

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If that the case ,rafale shouldn't have those round intakes,and those round engine nozzles ,and single vertical tail with no symmetry with the body.
??? Rafale's shape is actually rather good when it comes to RCS, especially from frontal aspect. Intakes are not that round, and from front it doesn't matter anyway. As for vertical tail fin, IIRC it is made from radar-transparent materials so it doesn't matter anyway. Only problem is side and rear RCS - as you point out, round engine nozzles - but that was never too much of a concern anyway, since Rafale was primarily defensive air superiority fighter, and its strike mission profile assumed terrain cover + SPECTRA as opposed to US requirement for all-aspect RCS reduction.
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale can't supercruise. It can supercruise at half tank with 2 AAM missiles. This is not supercruise in real scenario.

Also, about stealth operations from hidden bases and concealed logistics,unless there is STOVL, it is very difficult. Only F35B has STOVL and that too is having problems.


The Rafale C did get upgraded into partial stealth but nevertheless, it is not low observable. The general design of Rafale A & Rafale C remained same. The main aspects like stealth shaping of wings, removal of canards etc were not done. Also, Rafale stealth is somewhat over-rated as the Spectra EW suite adds some stealth by jamming. But it is not real stealth on its own.
Once again, you are saying nonsense.
Rafale C is not VLO but is LO.
The general concept of Rafale C remain those of Rafale A because the tests shown a very high level of performance in agility, low speed handling (for carrier !) and high AoA, but at the request of a possible customer (UAE) a RCS target was added for the serial product.
As already written, there is NO COMMON SHAPE between Rafale A and C. All was revised with RCS in mind.
 

BON PLAN

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If that the case ,rafale shouldn't have those round intakes,and those round engine nozzles ,and single vertical tail with no symmetry with the body.
Just to answer about tail : a vertical tail is a problem ONLY if the opponent radar is perfectly perpendicular to it, ie same altitude, perfectly at 90° of the plane..... it occured 0,01% of the time....

Round engine nozzle : F35 is a perfect answer :pound:
 

BON PLAN

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[citation needed]
So the Rafale A was not studied with RCS in mind, but the Rafale C magically has an RCS that's very low? That's not how things work. The Rafale was always meant to have a low RCS compared to traditional 4 gen frames. The French realised that maintaining and designing full stealth air frames at that time would be too expensive, so they figured they would reduce it as far as feasible. The result is the Rafale.

It has some features that reduce RCS but nothing that pushes it all the way to all aspect stealth. The way you say it makes it sound like the Rafale is the wonder weapon the world has been waiting for.
Rafale A was a test bed for : numeric FBW, 30° seat, close coupled delta config, semi recessed with no moving part mach 2 air intakes, and M88. As M88 was late, it was replace by F404.
Fortunately semi recessed air intakes proved to help in RCS, was it was not the initial goal.

I'm not saying Rafale is the best in all aspect, but with it you have a very good product for all missions, at a known price (F35 sustain price is unknown for exemple).
 

Steven Rogers

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??? Rafale's shape is actually rather good when it comes to RCS, especially from frontal aspect. Intakes are not that round, and from front it doesn't matter anyway. As for vertical tail fin, IIRC it is made from radar-transparent materials so it doesn't matter anyway. Only problem is side and rear RCS - as you point out, round engine nozzles - but that was never too much of a concern anyway, since Rafale was primarily defensive air superiority fighter, and its strike mission profile assumed terrain cover + SPECTRA as opposed to US requirement for all-aspect RCS reduction.
It is good when compared to 4th gen aircrafts. Intakes are oval still they will contribute in RCS as they are not designed to spread the radar waves in diff direction than the direction of origin. Acc to various researchers and designers , NO AMOUNT OF MATERIAL WILL DO GOOD IF THE SHAPE OF THE AIRCRAFT IS NOT DESIGNED STEALTHY ,and that's reason why get with more advance materials is considered inferior to f22 in stealth. Rafale intakes as well as frontal section which has exposed sensors situated will contribute to the RCS no matter how much you use materials. And thats the problem,in terrain hugging profile it's range will considerably be reduced when compared to the f35 which can fly at the altitudes without being detected . F35 also have better sensor coverage than on Rafale so it has better situational awareness than the rafale,has much advance fusion engine than any aircraft currently build and operational.
 

Steven Rogers

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Just to answer about tail : a vertical tail is a problem ONLY if the opponent radar is perfectly perpendicular to it, ie same altitude, perfectly at 90° of the plane..... it occured 0,01% of the time....

Round engine nozzle : F35 is a perfect answer :pound:
And I presume that you neglected the very fact that even a small protruding thing on an stealth aircraft exposes it to the enemy radar ,not only this but a perpendicular tail on an aircraft also increases the heat points from where radar waves could return(as rafale tail is neither shaped nor positioned so a radar in x band presumedly at higher power output can track Rafael even if Rafale becomes lo without that correction) thats why stealth aircrafts are designed with tail(with themselves shaped to reflect the energy in the other directions) matching the symmetry of the farthest point of the aircraft ie the body section of the air intakes.
 

Steven Rogers

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Do you think Thales and Dassault waited your advise ?
The numbers of rwr antennas on rafale is clear indication that they should rather take advice which I guess they already are doing so with the f4 development . As far as the f3r is concerned ,they still don't have satisfactory coverage of rwr on rafale which can effectively filter out lpi signals in all directions ie 360 coverage.
 

Steven Rogers

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They are both capable, but less capable than Rafale who can super cruise which is a requirement for 5th gen.

That quote came from a GOA report telling Congress the F-35 was a trillion dollar turd.
Even if the rafale super cruises ,its weapons will be located externally which not only increases RCS but also enough drag to limit the range which everyone boasts .
 

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