Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

Low observable is anything less than 1m^2. The Rafale is 0.3m^2 clean, 0.5m^2 with 3X CFTs, 4X Mica, 2X Scalp. The refueling probe is angled and coated with RAM. The Rafale wouldn't be detected until 30km out by a fighter radar, a wide band radar could detect it further. Spectra works against anything that is in its threat database, it also has AI to analyze and counter any new threats.



The OFS can detect an F-22 and get a kill with MICA IR out to 70km. The F-22 would be dead before Rafale appeared on his radar.



The CFTs and missiles carried by Rafale are made of composites and coated in RAM. Only if it is carrying a bunch of cheap Mk 82/84 bombs with guidance kit would it not maintain LO. In the air-superiority or penetration role, it remains LO.



The F-35 has defective software that can't keep the radar on, can't classify threats of radars or missiles, or mount data from the optronics to the display. In the meantime the Spectra of the Rafale gives the pilot full Situational Awareness of the threats around him and the means to counter.



And the F-35 is a good aircraft... on paper. The software is so buggy it isn't fit for combat and spends half of its time grounded.



Governments under pressure from the US might be weak minded enough to fall for it, but luckily India is smarter than all of them.



Watch one by one they fall from the sky due to its glitchy software, it will be the next 737 MAX.

Actually the Rafale has a worse crash rate than the F-35, global fleet flight hours of the F-35 (on a bigger current fleet size) already exceeded the Rafale's. Hence, the Rafale has a worse attrition rate.

If the MKI can BVR kill the Rafale in previous exchanges, F-22 can only do better.

The rest is all non sense that doesn't affect the F-35 or it's ability. Teething problems or costs will not stop the F-35 outselling the Rafale by about 7-10 times. All I hear is yada yada from a country that couldn't export a decent aircraft for about 10 years due to global strategic irrelevance or lack of importance or sheer incompetence.

 

[Immanuel]

When they say F-35 EODAS can detect signatures at 1000km, they're talking about plumes of ballistic missiles and/or space rockets. Not the exhaust of a fighter jet or air-to-air missile.

That's like saying a small hand-held IR camera has a range of 150 million kilometers just because you can see the Sun in it.

EDIT: Systems like Rafale's WSO or similar systems will have more or less similar ranges...if one is talking about similar targets. But such figure is never quoted for what is meant to be basically a MAWS....because that is simply not the purpose of said system.

Lockheed/Grumman have made a clever marketing ploy here.

1200 km is for ballistic missiles and space rockets sure, a Rafale should easily be in the 200 km range. If the French had such ranges or abilities for that matter on their systems, they would market it as well. Nobody does more BS marketing than Dassault on the Rafale.

Also pointing a hand held IR at the Sun VS talking about a DAS system that not only detects and tracks such missiles launches at significant ranges, it can also detect and track mortars, rocket artillery, AA guns and trajectory of the weapons is stupid. Some of such complex and revolutionary tech is the reason why the F-35 has teething problems. There is hardly anything revolutionary about the Rafale but many aspects of the F-35 are. Heck DAS and the helmet alone are a giant leap ahead.

 

[BON PLAN]

This is literally normal time it takes to develop a fighter. The Rafale first flew in in 1986. It's production variant was first tested in 1991. It's first production variants reached the French Air Force in 1997. That's 11 years.

Rafale A was a testbed, same than JSF X35 to F35.
First serial Rafale C/M took the air in 1996 If I remember well. It was FOC in the French Marine in 2004 (IOC in 1999) and FOC in the Air Force in 2006.
about F35 : first serial plane took the air in 2006, and in 2019 is not FOC.

 

[BON PLAN]

Bunch of hot air, strange you say they didn't see the Rafale but they managed to shoot down the Storm Shadow hmmm. Also can you share some evidence for your claim.

They tried to, and failed, as no SCALP were destroyed....

 

[BON PLAN]

No it isn't ,these are the passive sensors, and an aircraft with 3-4 antennas(actually I don't have the numbers on Rafale) can be beaten up by the multiple frequencies in lpi mode with limited listeners which can't even cover the so called 360 degree envelope,which means less information from the sensors which directly affects the claimed sensor fusion which is still inferior to f35 ,and comes close enough to the f22(it has 30such antennas).

3 antennas, with a proper apperture, are enough

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually the Rafale has a worse crash rate than the F-35, global fleet flight hours of the F-35 (on a bigger current fleet size) already exceeded the Rafale's. Hence, the Rafale has a worse attrition rate.

Just wait.... F35 is not FOC. We'll do the math in 5 years.

Rafale losts : a spatial disorientation, 2 in the same mid air collision, 1 during a harsh and near the sea dog fight with F18 or SH18, on after a pilot error before a air refueling.
=> One real technical failure (the one during the dog fight : the anemometric probes became fool due to jet exhaust of F18, and the plane was too near the sea : pilot eject).

F35 : one technical failure in USA. Probably one in the japan sea during day light and calm flight (and a lot of "small" technical failure on the japanses planes).

 

[Picard]

You already proved my point that having more spikes(it's has the highest if it is compared with a 5th gen aircraft)even with ram treatment doesn't help if it is not concentrated in minimum possible points and thanks for pointing one more thing that it has pointed radome with circular in shape that means ,it is a good reflector of radar waves irrespective of material . F35 has better sensors which includes various antennas spread in the skin which are integrated with the main radar which not only perform radar detection but interception and jamming,eodas is a sniper pod integrated into the f35 for stealth missions and it don't contribute while like hanging outside , DAS provides the complete 360 envelop(which Rafale sensors don't since their is very limited coverage of RWR and maw),and with all these f35 has the best sensor fusion which includes collection OF ALL POSSIBLE DATA and then engine fuses that means data is collected from every possible sensor to present a much smarter view compared to rafales where data is collected to only make worth enough of tracking that means not all sensors data is used and only the best possible is selected and then fuses,developing later is easier however is time consuming in operations.

1) Rafale does not have all-aspect stealth, but that does not mean that its signature-reduction measures are irrelevant or nonexistent. Its focus always was on frontal-sector signature reduction. Even outside that, there are signature-reduction measures. It is just that it does not place all eggs in one basket like F-35, and is designed on-budget unlike F-22.
2) Rafale is not a VLO aircraft, never was meant to be. Again, its RCS reduction is primarily to front, so yes, F-35 will be better when it comes to all-aspect RCS. But for Rafale - which has its origins as defensive interceptor, and even in strike missions is meant to fly below radar horizon - those are useless anyway.
3) Any AESA radar can provide RWR as well as jamming, that is nothing new, and may not be a good idea anyway as using radar for jamming means that you have to keep radar at same frequencies as enemy radar, which means that it is relatively easy for the enemy ARM to catch on.
4) F-35 does not have proper IRST, it has EO DAS + EOTS. EOTS is a ground-attack FLIR, not a proper IRST, while EO DAS is an IR MAWS, and therefore limited in range.
5) Rafale MAWS and RWR provide 360° horizontal coverage, and while MAWS does have a blind spot where wings and fuselage block sensors, there were plans for additional sensors to solve that issue.
6) Sensor fusion is nothing new, and how do you know F-35 is best in it?

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually the Rafale has a worse crash rate than the F-35, global fleet flight hours of the F-35 (on a bigger current fleet size) already exceeded the Rafale's. Hence, the Rafale has a worse attrition rate.

The F-35 had only achieved the 100,000 hour mark in 2017, the Rafale had 270,000 with 40,000 combat hours. With the F-35 being grounded for most of the last 6 months I doubt it will overtake it any time soon.

If the MKI can BVR kill the Rafale in previous exchanges, F-22 can only do better.

I am still waiting on the report of an MKI swatting a Rafale. We have video evidence of Rafale swatting an F-22 twice when the Raptor pilots lied about it in open media.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Rafale does not catch on fire before or during takeoff

Marine F-35 fighter catches fire - Business Insider
https://www.businessinsider.com/marine-f-35-fighter-fire-2016-11

 

[Steven Rogers]

1) Rafale does not have all-aspect stealth, but that does not mean that its signature-reduction measures are irrelevant or nonexistent. Its focus always was on frontal-sector signature reduction. Even outside that, there are signature-reduction measures. It is just that it does not place all eggs in one basket like F-35, and is designed on-budget unlike F-22.
2) Rafale is not a VLO aircraft, never was meant to be. Again, its RCS reduction is primarily to front, so yes, F-35 will be better when it comes to all-aspect RCS. But for Rafale - which has its origins as defensive interceptor, and even in strike missions is meant to fly below radar horizon - those are useless anyway.
3) Any AESA radar can provide RWR as well as jamming, that is nothing new, and may not be a good idea anyway as using radar for jamming means that you have to keep radar at same frequencies as enemy radar, which means that it is relatively easy for the enemy ARM to catch on.
4) F-35 does not have proper IRST, it has EO DAS + EOTS. EOTS is a ground-attack FLIR, not a proper IRST, while EO DAS is an IR MAWS, and therefore limited in range.
5) Rafale MAWS and RWR provide 360° horizontal coverage, and while MAWS does have a blind spot where wings and fuselage block sensors, there were plans for additional sensors to solve that issue.
6) Sensor fusion is nothing new, and how do you know F-35 is best in it?

1. I never said it is irrelevant but rather proved it is irrelevant to compare with an stealth fighter on stealth basis,it should better of being compared with other European aircrafts.
2. Rafale has RCS which exposes it against advance radar 100ds of km away when it Flies at the altitudes of f35 in a strike mission that's why it has to fly dangerously low however it's advance sensors make it safe but that comes with a sacrifice and is range.
3. Total ignorance,the AESA has thousands of transmitting and receiving elements, so they can function and can jam various targets at once ,not only they can jam but can effectively balance power output for the jamming. If arm can hunt such system then it can also do the same with better accuracy to jammers which have far less elements than f35's radar . And as far as I know their has been integration of modes for ew in radar itself, don't think french claim that their AESA can use as a jammer as spectra has separate jammer and receiver and AESA is not the part of that.
4. F35's DAS has better cameras than an avg MAWS ,and they don't work individually rather they contribute in data which is fused and then displayed with the radars data to provide the most accurate information about the target .
the granularity of data being fed into the fusion engine,rafale sensor engine correlate tracks ie. processed data, selecting the most robust, for presentation to the pilot and discarding the others. The F-35 fusion engine OTOH correlates and processes raw unbiased sensor data streams from onboard and offboard sensors/data links, to build the most accurate accurate and comprehensive COP of the battlespace. It also speaks to a tighter integration of the avionics courtesy of those multi-million lines of software code.
5. Rafale RWR coverage is not so great and their was a news in most forums and pages that iaf demanded more robust RWR coverage than what it is presently on .
6. From what Dassault says on rafale sesensor fusion in appears it chose among several tracks the one with the highest confidence. Which Sounds like fusion at the track level. F-35 fusion engine generates a single unified track from scratch.

 

[Gessler]

1200 km is for ballistic missiles and space rockets sure, a Rafale should easily be in the 200 km range.

I'm sorry where did you pull this 200km figure out of? Are we talking about a target coming toward or going away with full AB?

If the French had such ranges or abilities for that matter on their systems, they would market it as well.

No one sensible is dubious enough to claim a 9mm handgun has a range of 2 kms just because the round goes that far before it drops to the ground.

The point to note is - what is the practical application of said ~1000km range against rockets?

Nothing.

Can F-35 launch a missile that can chase and take out a rocket/ballistic missile in ascent stage from 1000km away? Nope.

Will F-35 DAS provide some form of ballistic missile launch-warning from 1000km? Nope. SBIRS satellites will do that far more effectively and they can pick up launches in boost phase itself (where they are still without line-of-sight of any F-35 1000km away).

So you tell me....what F-35 plans to do with a ~1000km range of DAS? You tell me that is not dubious?

Nobody does more BS marketing than Dassault on the Rafale.

Quote few examples?

Also pointing a hand held IR at the Sun VS talking about a DAS system that not only detects and tracks such missiles launches at significant ranges, it can also detect and track mortars, rocket artillery, AA guns and trajectory of the weapons is stupid.

The point I made is with regard to range. Don't tell me you're naive enough to not see that?

The bigger the source of radiation, the farther you can see it from. That's how IR works.

Radar on the other hand works on principle of how much power is being transmitted. Low power - you can only see few kms. High power, you can track asteroids.

That is how fundamentally radar & IR differ. So quoting an incredible range of an IR tracking system...and then saying it corresponds to a huuuuge signature is nothing but dubious at best. Especially when said range & target type is not at all relevant to a tactical battlespace or air-to-air combat in any way.

Point a WSO in the required direction and it will track all the things a DAS will track. The ranges will differ slightly sure...but there is no secret sauce in DAS that allows it to get 10x the tracking range vs DDM-NG within the same or even smaller form-factor. It's ridiculous to even believe that.

Some of such complex and revolutionary tech is the reason why the F-35 has teething problems.

The primary reason for F-35 program problems stems from its root...the plan to create 3 different aircraft (A, B, C differ greatly...especially B) for 3 different purposes, all from a common platform. It was too ambitious a plan.

There is hardly anything revolutionary about the Rafale but many aspects of the F-35 are. Heck DAS and the helmet alone are a giant leap ahead.

DAS is nothing but a glorified MAWS. An incremental development of systems which were present on aircraft since the 90s. Just because you can now stream the feed from the sensors to an overweight HMD does not really 'revolutionize' anything to be frank.

 

[Steven Rogers]

4) F-35 does not have proper IRST, it has EO DAS + EOTS. EOTS is a ground-attack FLIR, not a proper IRST, while EO DAS is an IR MAWS, and therefore limited in range.

F35 has 6 electro optical sensors and they are used to detect targets such as a2a missiles,Sams ,aircrafts at long ranges depending upon the heat signatures.

 

[WolfPack86]

Congress has no issues with Rafale jet, problem is with how ‘contract was signed’
Senior Congress leaders have met French diplomats, assuring them there won’t be any issues with existing Rafale contract if Congress comes to power.


New Delhi: After the Congress launched a full campaign against the Modi government over allegations of corruption in the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, top sources in the party have told ThePrint that it has no issues with the aircraft and the deal would go through smoothly if it comes back to power.

“The Congress party does not have any issues with the Rafale aircraft per se. The problem is the way the contract was negotiated and signed,” a top source in the Congress said.

The Modi government had signed a deal with France and its defence major Dassault Aviation in September 2016 to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Diplomatic sources said top Congress leaders like Anand Sharma and others have also met French diplomats on the Rafale issue, assuring them that there won’t be any issues with the existing contract, and with the new Indian Air Force tender for 114 aircraft if Rafale is selected.

The party manifesto for the Lok Sabha elections has an image of Rafale on the page where it talks about security. The accompanying text talks about strengthening armed forces.

Earlier this year, party leader and former finance minister P. Chidambaram had told The Indian Express that the Congress won’t scrap the deal for 36 Rafale fighters, but will buy more at cheaper rates if it comes back to power.

Also read: Congress promises to investigate Rafale & other deals during Modi rule if voted to power

‘Lower rates’
However, top sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the Modi government’s proposed plan was to buy 72 aircraft. It was expected that once the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets goes through, another 36 would be bought at cheaper rates.

The rates for the next set of aircraft are supposed to be lower because the government has already paid a one-time fee of €1.3 billion for India-specific enhancements, said the sources.

While 36 aircraft can easily be based in one location, the 2016 contract is for setting up bases in two locations, added the sources.

“The cost for setting up the bases is already paid for in the 2016 contract. Any new Rafale would be cheaper because no payment would have to be paid for India-specific enhancement and for setting up of additional base,” a top source told ThePrint.

The Congress has been using the Rafale issue as a major political plank for its Lok Sabha campaign, accusing the Modi government of crony capitalism by favouring industrialist Anil Ambani and his Reliance group companies.
https://theprint.in/defence/congres...oblem-is-with-how-contract-was-signed/227185/

 

[BON PLAN]

5. Rafale RWR coverage is not so great and their was a news in most forums and pages that iaf demanded more robust RWR coverage than what it is presently on .

source please .

 

[BON PLAN]

6. From what Dassault says on rafale sesensor fusion in appears it chose among several tracks the one with the highest confidence. Which Sounds like fusion at the track level. F-35 fusion engine generates a single unified track from scratch.

Absolutely false. It is a true real fusion.
This point was among the strengths of Rafale in the 2011 Swiss eval. Sure it is always more robust today.

 

[Armand2REP]

F35 has 6 electro optical sensors and they are used to detect targets such as a2a missiles,Sams ,aircrafts at long ranges depending upon the heat signatures.

According to the last report to Congress, those sensors couldn't tell a missile from a toaster.

 

[BON PLAN]

Congress has no issues with Rafale jet, problem is with how ‘contract was signed’
Senior Congress leaders have met French diplomats, assuring them there won’t be any issues with existing Rafale contract if Congress comes to power.


New Delhi: After the Congress launched a full campaign against the Modi government over allegations of corruption in the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, top sources in the party have told ThePrint that it has no issues with the aircraft and the deal would go through smoothly if it comes back to power.

“The Congress party does not have any issues with the Rafale aircraft per se. The problem is the way the contract was negotiated and signed,” a top source in the Congress said.

The Modi government had signed a deal with France and its defence major Dassault Aviation in September 2016 to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Diplomatic sources said top Congress leaders like Anand Sharma and others have also met French diplomats on the Rafale issue, assuring them that there won’t be any issues with the existing contract, and with the new Indian Air Force tender for 114 aircraft if Rafale is selected.

The party manifesto for the Lok Sabha elections has an image of Rafale on the page where it talks about security. The accompanying text talks about strengthening armed forces.

Earlier this year, party leader and former finance minister P. Chidambaram had told The Indian Express that the Congress won’t scrap the deal for 36 Rafale fighters, but will buy more at cheaper rates if it comes back to power.

Also read: Congress promises to investigate Rafale & other deals during Modi rule if voted to power

‘Lower rates’
However, top sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the Modi government’s proposed plan was to buy 72 aircraft. It was expected that once the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets goes through, another 36 would be bought at cheaper rates.

The rates for the next set of aircraft are supposed to be lower because the government has already paid a one-time fee of €1.3 billion for India-specific enhancements, said the sources.

While 36 aircraft can easily be based in one location, the 2016 contract is for setting up bases in two locations, added the sources.

“The cost for setting up the bases is already paid for in the 2016 contract. Any new Rafale would be cheaper because no payment would have to be paid for India-specific enhancement and for setting up of additional base,” a top source told ThePrint.

The Congress has been using the Rafale issue as a major political plank for its Lok Sabha campaign, accusing the Modi government of crony capitalism by favouring industrialist Anil Ambani and his Reliance group companies.
https://theprint.in/defence/congres...oblem-is-with-how-contract-was-signed/227185/

A follow on order for 36 new planes in the same GtoG conditions will cost India in the 3.5 billion + weapons pack + multi years support pack (ie without new airbase accomodation).

 

[gryphus-scarface]

A follow on order for 36 new planes in the same GtoG conditions will cost India in the 3.5 billion + weapons pack + multi years support pack (ie without new airbase accomodation).

Unlikely. We'll mostly get newer planes only through MRCA 2.0, unless that also gets cancelled. We'll have to wait for elections to end to get more details.

 

[Immanuel]

According to the last report to Congress, those sensors couldn't tell a missile from a toaster.

Didn't know toasters could fly, perhaps in France they do. Do they have mid air refueling as well, hopefully they are retractable unlike the Rafale's.

 

[Armand2REP]

Didn't know toasters could fly, perhaps in France they do. Do they have mid air refueling as well, hopefully they are retractable unlike the Rafale's.

If you stick them in a toaster dispenser and launch them as decoys the F-35 wouldn't know what it was looking at, much less missiles, radars or anything else. At this point and time, the sensor fusion is trash.