Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Mirage 2000 is 4th generation so what does that make Rafale? SCAF will be 6th generation.

3rd generation is more mechanical based whereas 4th generation has FBW, advanced radar and more electronic brains. 5th generation has advanced electronics with partial AI and stealth airframe.

Mirage 2000 is 3.5 generation. The generation difference arises due to different electronics. Mirage 2000 lacks advanced radar and advanced electronics due to the limitations of its LRU. But it has FBW and medium level radar. Hence it comes to 3.5 generation

Rafale is 4.5 generation due to its AESA radar, HMDS, EW suite, network centric warfare ability etc.

Su30 is 4th generation as it has FBW & PESA radar but lacks AESA, network centric warfare, modern EW, SDR etc.

Here Su30 can be upgraded into Rafale level by upgrading some of the electronic and radar. The super Sukhoi upgrade does that. But Mirage 2000 can't be upgraded further due to its older LRU. Hence it will remain at 3.5 generation till it retires

The 6th generation fighter is an undefined project. What upgrade from 5th generation which includes stealth, AI (sensor fusion) and advanced avionics can the 6th generation incorporate? If there is no further Technological upgrade, then the 6th generation will be a misnomer. The only way I see that a 6th generation plane can be made is by making an autopilot expert AI which can fully replace a human pilot

 

[gryphus-scarface]

It lags behind in terms of radar and other avionics ew upgrade that is why IAF is pushing for supersukhoi upgrade.

Sukhoi also require upgraded BVRAAM missiles from russian stable since MBDA has refused to integrate meteor with it.
This might be the reason porks were able to lock on Sukhoi 30 with AMRAAM.

Aesa Radar and cost seems to be the main reason . May be in a year or so things will be cleared out . No doubt Sukhoi is a beast but it needs to be fed properly with the upgrade package which we didn't do it yet.

Yes any Super Sukhoi upgrade package should have the following:

1. AESA Radar
2. MAWS
3. RWR
4. Better sensor fusion between the IRST and the Radar
5. Better data links to add some net-centric warfare capabilities
6. Upgraded engines
7. Internal self protection jammer

So far the Russians have offered to bring the Su-30 MKI to the Su-35S standard. That would mean the we don't get AESA radar. Nor do we get the best avionics. That's probably the main reason for the delay.

 

[Shiv sagar]

Reality bites.... If I am trying to bring the reality here on this forum then I become Pakistani... ohh god...

Reality bites.....yup it really bites....just ask ur pdf brothers
1.why did f16 never tried to re enter after 27 feb, if they were so successful against MKI?
2. ASK how many f16 and junk fighters were there on feb 27 and how many MKI?
3. Why there is no proof of shooting down an MKI?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It lags behind in terms of radar and other avionics ew upgrade that is why IAF is pushing for supersukhoi upgrade.

Sukhoi also require upgraded BVRAAM missiles from russian stable since MBDA has refused to integrate meteor with it.
This might be the reason porks were able to lock on Sukhoi 30 with AMRAAM. It is said they fired from 50- 60 km . With meteor like missile having 50 -60 km as NEZ our pilots would have easily neutralized the porks.

Aesa Radar and cost seems to be the main reason . May be in a year or so things will be cleared out . No doubt Sukhoi is a beast but it needs to be fed properly with the upgrade package which we didn't do it yet.

I agree that an upgrade is needed but that upgrade is doable and is in the offing as Super sukhoi. Also, Su30 Mki can integrate Astra BVRAAM. India also has hundreds of R73 & R77. So, pakistan being able to fire at Su30 while Su30 unable to fire back is wrong. India did not expect Pakistan to fire and hence didn't fire first. India was following minimum aggression protocol. Pakistan also surprised India by running back before lock could be achieved

 

[neeraj_]

I agree that an upgrade is needed but that upgrade is doable and is in the offing as Super sukhoi. Also, Su30 Mki can integrate Astra BVRAAM. India also has hundreds of R73 & R77. So, pakistan being able to fire at Su30 while Su30 unable to fire back is wrong. India did not expect Pakistan to fire and hence didn't fire first. India was following minimum aggression protocol. Pakistan also surprised India by running back before lock could be achieved

Can you please decide which side you are on in terms of what happened that day?
As you said before sukhoi failed and now this a complete U-turn .

Though this post is more sensible .
I think it was both F 16's with porks flying them ran like rats once they saw those sukhoi 30s and fired all their missiles and hence sukhois were busy escaping those . Also our pilots might have decided not to fire due to porks being out of NEZ rather than ROE.

Chill Rafale is coming anyway what we need is low-cost option with BVRAAM missile like meteor and adequate no. of Netra and phalcons SFDR and Astra mk2 will be game changer

Tejas will do the job once inducted in numbers.

 

[neeraj_]

Reality bites.....yup it really bites....just ask ur pdf brothers
1.why did f16 never tried to re enter after 27 feb, if they were so successful against MKI?
2. ASK how many f16 and junk fighters were there on feb 27 and how many MKI?
3. Why there is no proof of shooting down an MKI?

How many of them were in sky is of no use as it was a failure on our part to respond kindly and keeping adequate number in the sky in such case.

In war like scenario we should have atleast 4-5 aircraft prepared all the time to be scrambled in a min and in sky .

2 sukhoi 2 mig 2 mirages that's what we sent for those 20+ porks . We really need to fill up our light fighter squadrons for interception role and more Netras and phalcons. Else we will be forever justifying this and that.

We need a decisive victory one day and for that we need to be constantly at the top of our game.

 

[BON PLAN]

MKI is not that good when it comes to western fighters...recent 27 Feb air skirmish has exposed its weakness and vulnerability even against F-16 then forget about it being better than Rafale....We need those Rafales and we need them in numbers.....

I love you

 

[BON PLAN]

Su30 is better or equal to all 4th generation western fighters including F15 & Rafale.

Say it ten times and it will be true.....

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is 4.5 gen. It has partial stealth and a good degree of sensor fusion. It is not however fully stealthy. Stealth is the primary reason why it isn't fifth gen.

We don't know much about the FCAS/SCAF, however it looks like it will be more 5.5gen rather than 6gen. Each generation generally corresponds to making it much easier to kill previous generations. From what little we know, it looks like the SCAS will simply be pushing more net-centric capabilities and have full stealth.

Partially stealth : OK.
A good degree of sensor fusion? The best of the actual west fighters. Just read again swiss eval.

Now 5.5 gen...... OK.... So I decrete you are a 1,5 gen man. You understand? I not.

 

[BON PLAN]

3rd generation is more mechanical based whereas 4th generation has FBW, advanced radar and more electronic brains. 5th generation has advanced electronics with partial AI and stealth airframe.

Mirage 2000 is 3.5 generation. The generation difference arises due to different electronics. Mirage 2000 lacks advanced radar and advanced electronics due to the limitations of its LRU. But it has FBW and medium level radar. Hence it comes to 3.5 generation

Rafale is 4.5 generation due to its AESA radar, HMDS, EW suite, network centric warfare ability etc.

Su30 is 4th generation as it has FBW & PESA radar but lacks AESA, network centric warfare, modern EW, SDR etc.

Here Su30 can be upgraded into Rafale level by upgrading some of the electronic and radar. The super Sukhoi upgrade does that. But Mirage 2000 can't be upgraded further due to its older LRU. Hence it will remain at 3.5 generation till it retires

The 6th generation fighter is an undefined project. What upgrade from 5th generation which includes stealth, AI (sensor fusion) and advanced avionics can the 6th generation incorporate? If there is no further Technological upgrade, then the 6th generation will be a misnomer. The only way I see that a 6th generation plane can be made is by making an autopilot expert AI which can fully replace a human pilot

pffffff.....
last M2000 ae FBW, has a modern multirole radar (RDY 1 or 2), and the onboard computer of the Rafale (EMTI).

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes any Super Sukhoi upgrade package should have the following:

1. AESA Radar
2. MAWS
3. RWR
4. Better sensor fusion between the IRST and the Radar
5. Better data links to add some net-centric warfare capabilities
6. Upgraded engines
7. Internal self protection jammer

So far the Russians have offered to bring the Su-30 MKI to the Su-35S standard. That would mean the we don't get AESA radar. Nor do we get the best avionics. That's probably the main reason for the delay.

It will costs a lot ! You change all but the frame..... => $ ++++

 

[gryphus-scarface]

How many of them were in sky is of no use as it was a failure on our part to respond kindly and keeping adequate number in the sky in such case.

In war like scenario we should have atleast 4-5 aircraft prepared all the time to be scrambled in a min and in sky .

2 sukhoi 2 mig 2 mirages that's what we sent for those 20+ porks . We really need to fill up our light fighter squadrons for interception role and more Netras and phalcons. Else we will be forever justifying this and that.

We need a decisive victory one day and for that we need to be constantly at the top of our game.

OK I think there is a misunderstanding here. 4 Su-30 MKIs were present. However 2 were at the edge of their endurance so were returning to base. 2 were still on CAP duty. Nobody puts 10-15 planes on CAP duty at once. That's insane. 2-4 is the normal count and acceptable.

We had the MiG 21s already in ORP. They are interceptors. They are the planes the IAF is supposed to send. That was the plan all along. There is no other platform that the IAF uses as of now in the interceptor role in the same way. See also Cope 2004. The IAF has found an optimal use for the MiG 21 platform.

The PAF failed to destroy the military establishments. That is a failure. They failed their mission. Why? Because the IAF was successful in its defence of Indian air space.

The 2 Su-30 MKIs + 6 MiG 21 Bisons + 2 Mirage 2000s were enough to repel 24 PAF fighters. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means 10 IAF fighters repelled 24 PAF fighters. In what world is that a failure? Success is not when we down the enemy planes only. That day our success was in preventing the PAF from bombing military establishments. That was the IAF goal and they achieved it. The PAF failed to achieve their goal.

The DG ISPR managed to spin the narrative the other way around by focusing on the fact that they downed a MiG 21 Bison and had captured the Wing Commander.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

It will costs a lot ! You change all but the frame..... => $ ++++

So? Rafales don't come for free. They are pretty expensive. We have 270+ Su-30 MKIs. We have to upgrade them And these features will be in the upgraded version. Its just a question of when.

 

[Armand2REP]

3rd generation is more mechanical based whereas 4th generation has FBW, advanced radar and more electronic brains. 5th generation has advanced electronics with partial AI and stealth airframe.

Mirage 2000 is 3.5 generation. The generation difference arises due to different electronics. Mirage 2000 lacks advanced radar and advanced electronics due to the limitations of its LRU. But it has FBW and medium level radar. Hence it comes to 3.5 generation

You call M2000 3.5 generation when it was more advanced than the 4th gen F-16... your statement doesn't make sense. I don't think you understand how rudimentary the first F-16 was.

afale is 4.5 generation due to its AESA radar, HMDS, EW suite, network centric warfare ability etc.

The characteristics of a 5th generation fighter are as follows...

1) Low Observability
2) Super Cruise w/combat load
3) AESA radar
4) inegrated solid state EW system
5) Advanced situational awareness

You left out Low Observability and Super Cruise which are the two key characteristics of 5th gen. Rafale can both Super Cruise and maintain Low Observability. The IR signature of the Rafale is lower than any other fighter while its RCS from the top down makes it near impossible to detect running a terrain hugging profile as it was designed. You will say that it isn't all aspect stealth, but then neither is F-22 that can be seen much easier in the IR spectrum.

Su30 is 4th generation as it has FBW & PESA radar but lacks AESA, network centric warfare, modern EW, SDR etc.

It is definitely 4th gen, it would be hard to call it 4.5 gen without AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced Situational Awareness or Low Observability.

Here Su30 can be upgraded into Rafale level by upgrading some of the electronic and radar. The super Sukhoi upgrade does that. But Mirage 2000 can't be upgraded further due to its older LRU. Hence it will remain at 3.5 generation till it retires

Is the Super 30 upgrade going to give it AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced SA or LO? It will definitely give it super cruise so 4.25 at least.

The 6th generation fighter is an undefined project. What upgrade from 5th generation which includes stealth, AI (sensor fusion) and advanced avionics can the 6th generation incorporate? If there is no further Technological upgrade, then the 6th generation will be a misnomer. The only way I see that a 6th generation plane can be made is by making an autopilot expert AI which can fully replace a human pilot.

The SCAF is pretty well defined, the US has yet to define theirs but it looks like they will copy SCAF. The problem for the US is that they are stuck with a $1 trillion turd. The characteristics of 6th gen are operating drone swarms, carrying hypersonic missiles, RCS and IR signatures ten times lower than an F-22 and everything else that will be in the best of the 5th generation. I think the 6th generation should be hypersonic myself but that is too much to ask for.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Rafales have some critical abilities that mki dont have currently.

Its avionics is next gen with internal Spectra ew suite,sensor fusion,aesa radar.mki doesnt even have MAWS or internal jammer.

Its bvr capabilities are a leap ahead with meteor which is best bvr in the world.

It has far lesser rcs than su30mki.
It is optimized for penetration of eneny defenses and can do low level flight as well which bars radar in sukhoi cant do.
Due to its less rcs,superb EW and standoff munitions like storm shadow and ALARM anti radiation missile its perfect plane for SEAD/DEAD and surgical strikes.

Sukhoi 30 mki will get these features after super upgrade from 2021-
X band aesa version of Bars PESA radar.
New IRST tracker( same one as in su57)
Cockpit optimizations
New indian EW suite with maws,rwr etc.
Ability to launch chaff decoys as well as existing flares.
New israeli datalink and jam proof radios.
Al 41 engines ( same as in su 35)
New bvr aam k77m and set of groubd attack ordnance incl spice 2000 and crystal maze.As well as air launched brahmos ng.
Wvr will be Asraam( integration ongoing)

The new radar will allow ground hugging ops as well.
Only after these upgrades super sukhoi can be similar to rafale even though it will still lack sophistication of spectra,the raw range of meteor and rcs.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

You call M2000 3.5 generation when it was more advanced than the 4th gen F-16... your statement doesn't make sense.



The characteristics of a 5th generation fighter are as follows...

1) Low Observability
2) Super Cruise w/combat load
3) AESA radar
4) inegrated solid state EW system
5) Advanced situational awareness

Low observability has generally been accepted as having RCS of < 0.1 m^2. Its why both the Rafale and Tejas are firmly 4.5 gen.

You left out Low Observability and Super Cruise which are the two key characteristics of 5th gen. Rafale can both Super Cruise and maintain Low Observability. The IR signature of the Rafale is lower than any other fighter while its RCS from the top down makes it near impossible to detect running a terrain hugging profile as it was designed. You will say that it isn't all aspect stealth, but then neither is F-22 that can be seen much easier in the IR spectrum.

Rafale doesn't have as low an RCS as the F-22 or F-35. Nor does it have all aspect stealth. The F-22 is larger yet will have lower RCS from most angles. As for terrain hugging, by this measure even the MiG 21 is very stealthy. As for IR stealth, every plane can be seen on IR due to the heat they generate, especially when they fly at supersonic speeds. The Rafale is no exception.

It is definitely 4th gen, it would be hard to call it 4.5 gen without AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced Situational Awareness or Low Observability.



Is the Super 30 upgrade going to give it AESA or Super Cruise or Advanced SA or LO? It will definitely give it super cruise so 4.25 at least.

The Su-30 will get AESA radar. It already has a HMD which is good. Low observability is unlikely. The best it will get is a RAM coat on some parts to reduce the RCS. The Su-35S has a frontal RCS of 4.5m^2 which isn't exactly great either. Super cruise depends on the engine selected and the wight reductions.

The SCAF is pretty well defined, the US has yet to define theirs but it looks like they will copy SCAF. The problem for the US is that they are stuck with a $1 trillion turd. The characteristics of 6th gen are operating drone swarms, carrying hypersonic missiles, RCS and IR signatures ten times lower than an F-22 and everything else that will be in the best of the 5th generation. I think the 6th generation should be hypersonic myself but that is too much to ask for.

The F-35 has better sensor fusion than the Rafale and is more stealthy.

 

[Picard]

I agree with you with high mach.
TVC is really usefull at very low speed : less than 100-120 knts. A plane is then a so easy target that that speed is unused in combat. Just usefull in peace time mission (to recognize a lost aircraft) and for take off and landing operations.

TVC is useful in situations where aerodynamic surfaces cannot take advantage of aircraft's lift. Said situations happen at a) very low speeds and b) very high speed. Which is to say, TVC is useful for:
1) low-speed agility and maneuverability
2) takeoff and landing
3) supersonic cruise performance (drag reduction etc.)

But close-coupled canards have all of those advantages, so I am unsure how useful TVC would be for Gripen and Rafale. Maybe for takeoff and landing ops, but...

 

[Armand2REP]

Low observability has generally been accepted as having RCS of < 0.1 m^2. Its why both the Rafale and Tejas are firmly 4.5 gen.

Infrared signature is part of low observability, everyone likes to forget that when talking about F-22 that has a glaring weakness in the infrared spectrum.

The Su-30 will get AESA radar. It already has a HMD which is good. Low observability is unlikely. The best it will get is a RAM coat on some parts to reduce the RCS. The Su-35S has a frontal RCS of 4.5m^2 which isn't exactly great either. Super cruise depends on the engine selected and the wight reductions.

If Super 30 includes an AESA radar I will be more than happy to bump that up to 4.5.

The F-35 has better sensor fusion than the Rafale and is more stealthy.

F-35 can't maintain Mach speeds on military thrust for more than 150 miles = no super cruise.

Every aircraft comes up short in some way. The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Infrared signature is part of low observability, everyone likes to forget that when talking about F-22 that has a glaring weakness in the infrared spectrum.

And you're forgetting that IR is something whose performance varies based on weather. And every plane has an IR signature. There's no way to hide it. This is because they heat up the air surrounding the plane, especially at higher speeds. If Rafale has found a way to hide this, then that's insane. The only place you rcan reduce IR signature is from engine nozzles. I don't see the Rafale doing any such thing. The F-22 at least tries with its square nozzles.

If Super 30 includes an AESA radar I will be more than happy to bump that up to 4.5.

It would be insane to upgrade the plane without including AESA radars. Anyway, I think wer're getting caught up on an upgrade package we know nothing of yet.

F-35 can't maintain Mach speeds on military thrust for more than 150 miles = no super cruise.

Every aircraft comes up short in some way. The Rafale is a much better aircraft than the F-35 that can't turn, can't climb and can't run.

Yes however the Rafale doesn't have the necessary tradeoffs that make it a 5th generation platform. Nobody (including Dassault) calls it a 5th generation platform.

 

[Immanuel]

MKI is not that good when it comes to western fighters...recent 27 Feb air skirmish has exposed its weakness and vulnerability even against F-16 then forget about it being better than Rafale....We need those Rafales and we need them in numbers.....

Complete ill informed non sense, stop garbage fake news.