Know Your 'Rafale'

Immanuel

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Lt. Col. Lyautey had the opportunity to fly MKI and perform two DACTs against it during Garuda V, he says... the Rafale has a larger range of speed where it is more manoeuvrable than the Su-30." Only having advantage at low speed is no advantage at all as any fighter pilot who has lost his speed is already dead.



I heard the AIMs fell out of the sky because they were jammed by M2Ks, I guess we will never know. What we do know is that IAF is saying the day would have turned very differently if Rafale was in the sky.
Fell out of the sky because of jamming by M2K do you know anything about fighter aviation?

Don't know about this Lt. Only know that MkI swatted the EF and Rafale both in WVR and BVR. Also to say the Rafale had more range of speed is silly, the MkI dances at virtual 0 speeds and can fly at over Mach 2, something the Rafale can't. Rafale is certainly faster in it's rates but nothing an MKI handled.

IAF only said the Rafale would have dominated vs F-16 instead of the Mig-21, they didn't say anything about MKI
 
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Armand2REP

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Fell out of the sky because of jamming by M2K do you know anything about fighter aviation?
You didn't know that upgraded M2Ks come with escort jammers? I guess not...

Don't know about this Lt. Only know that MkI swatted the EF and Rafale both in WVR and BVR.
It seems that you don't know many things about French aircraft capabilities. When someone talks about it you stick your fingers in your ears and say Nah Nah Nah Nah. I am still waiting for an account of an MKI swatting a Rafale.

IAF only said the Rafale would have dominated vs F-16 instead of the Mig-21, they didn't say anything about MKI
There were 4X MKI in the battle and didn't get a single kill with 24 targets to choose from. IAF said if Rafale was in the sky, most of those would never have made it home,
 

Gessler

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It seems that you don't know many things about French aircraft capabilities. When someone talks about it you stick your fingers in your ears and say Nah Nah Nah Nah. I am still waiting for an account of an MKI swatting a Rafale.
As per him, MKI vs Rafale in an exercise yields a valid result....but Rafale vs F-22 in an exercise is not valid for some reason.

A pretty detailed assessment of the Rafale/Raptor engagement:

https://defenseissues.net/2013/12/21/on-rafale-vs-f-22-bfm/
 

BON PLAN

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TVC allows MKI to completely change vectors with ease, speed is not necessarily the most important things while dodging missiles.
Yes. But only useful at very slow speed.
À plane in a fight at such small speed is already dead.
 

Tang

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Su-30 is a Russian aircraft, Brahmos is a 50/50 JV with Russia... getting approval for that is easy.

If you screw up the source code on a BMP 2 it isn't going to crash.
I think you didn't get it,
We modified Su30 and Brahmos all by our-self without any Russian help.
They were asking for too much money.

In Su30MKI, the mission computer is totally Indian.
 

Armand2REP

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I think you didn't get it,
We modified Su30 and Brahmos all by our-self without any Russian help.
They were asking for too much money.

In Su30MKI, the mission computer is totally Indian.
No one said Russia did it for you, what is said that Russia reviewed the modifications to make sure it wouldn't crash. The Russians employed at Brahmos India and embedded at HAL are not there to twiddle their thumbs. They are there for QA and safety.
 

Immanuel

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Yes. But only useful at very slow speed.
À plane in a fight at such small speed is already dead.
As said, the MKI is capable of speeds of over mach 2.0 something the Rafale isn't. Speed is not an issue for the MKI, it is more versatile in it's speed range than the Rafale. Matter of fact, they couldn't have dodged the Aim-120 without ability to get to supersonic speeds fast.
 

Immanuel

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You didn't know that upgraded M2Ks come with escort jammers? I guess not...



It seems that you don't know many things about French aircraft capabilities. When someone talks about it you stick your fingers in your ears and say Nah Nah Nah Nah. I am still waiting for an account of an MKI swatting a Rafale.



There were 4X MKI in the battle and didn't get a single kill with 24 targets to choose from. IAF said if Rafale was in the sky, most of those would never have made it home,
Escort Jammers don't prevent missiles like Aim-120 which have good Home on jam capabilities, while jamming helps in denying lock early on, the aircraft is still get's eventually locked and those Aims were probably fired from in long range Home on Jam mode, this means the MKI would then have to go into defensive maneuvers at speeds while chaffing it's way out of the missiles' lock. Just turning on your jammer and praying to god won't help, one needs to get their ass out of the missile's way.

To speculate that even a 4 ship Rafale would choose to engage with a 24 ship formation is stupid to say the least. This would invariably require some crossing into LOC making the aircraft also susceptible to ground fire and SAMs and while some Paki aircraft would die, so would some Rafales or MKI (Paki airspace is not like Libya or Syrian or Afghan airspace where aircraft can have low risk run through any day). While the Rafale would have managed to probably get a shot off, those guys would have run with their tails in hand eitherway. SOPs were clear, we do not engage first unless they get through to the LOC.

The 24 ship formation was a trap essentially, going in would have been playing directly into their plot. In the past, Mi-17 was shot down during Kargil was shot at by 3 stingers, they have no big shortage of MANPADS.

While Rafales or MKI or any other aircraft can dodge a missile or two, a barrage of Manpads is just asking for death.

Even in the case of Rafale, they'd be coming home without firing anything, perhaps a few tail shots of Meteor fired on receding targets but again, the enemy would go defensive, run and hide, Pakis are very good at it. When fired upon first by the F-16, the Rafale too would have to go into defensive run, it's MAWS and internal jammer would delay the lock, but the Rafale would still need to chaff and turn away. It would be another story if the Rafale or MKI fired first but SOPs didn't allow it. When the MKI was shot at it, the F-16s were potentially over 50 km away.

Real life air combat requires a good pilot to always consider his advantages and disadvantages. Everything from Fuel status to flare/chaff count matters, number and type of A2A missiles available and when to use which is not a straight forward answer. Also one needs to consider other threats in the area, while we know about 24 aircraft, do we know which SAMs were active, how many AA guns and MANPAD crews where laying in wait across the LOC to get a kill?
 

Immanuel

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As per him, MKI vs Rafale in an exercise yields a valid result....but Rafale vs F-22 in an exercise is not valid for some reason.

A pretty detailed assessment of the Rafale/Raptor engagement:

https://defenseissues.net/2013/12/21/on-rafale-vs-f-22-bfm/
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28459

Nice set of discussions that sort of debunk this. All sources even the French ones claim, 1 kill for the F-22 and the rest draw. Getting the F-22 in the line of sight isn't a kill. The likely impact of bullets was never on the F-22 really.

As for WVR with Missiles, Rafale at that time didn't have a Helmet mouted cueing system, it would have been easy meat for the F-22 with Aim-9x and combined helmet cueing.
 

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As said, the MKI is capable of speeds of over mach 2.0 something the Rafale isn't. Speed is not an issue for the MKI, it is more versatile in it's speed range than the Rafale. Matter of fact, they couldn't have dodged the Aim-120 without ability to get to supersonic speeds fast.
I agree with you with high mach.
TVC is really usefull at very low speed : less than 100-120 knts. A plane is then a so easy target that that speed is unused in combat. Just usefull in peace time mission (to recognize a lost aircraft) and for take off and landing operations.
 

Immanuel

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I agree with you with high mach.
TVC is really usefull at very low speed : less than 100-120 knts. A plane is then a so easy target that that speed is unused in combat. Just usefull in peace time mission (to recognize a lost aircraft) and for take off and landing operations.
Well TVC is very useful in WVR, especially when going up against a fast maneuvering aircraft, it allows the MKI pilot to quickly position himself in the best spot to fire his missile or gun. Noise pointing is very important. For instance the legacy F-18 gives the F-22 a lot of hard work in DACT just like the Rafale did. As long as WVR happens and the recent F-16/Mig-21 tussle shows it happens, it is advantageous to have TVC but it also does mean the engine needs longer time for maintenance and the MTBF is lower.

There is no question that Rafale is good dogfighter, 5 draws with the F-22 is a good sign but I think the MKI would dominate both in such situations. The Rafale or MKI would obviously own the Pakis if SOPs meant fire at will. Sadly the first one who shoots gets to decide how the battle happens.

Also in the case of the F-16s, I am sure, they had also been locked by Indian SAMs, another 30 seconds in Indian airspace would have invited more than just the Mig-21's humble defense.
 

Armand2REP

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I agree with you with high mach.
TVC is really usefull at very low speed : less than 100-120 knts. A plane is then a so easy target that that speed is unused in combat. Just usefull in peace time mission (to recognize a lost aircraft) and for take off and landing operations.
You forgot the most useful place for it, performing Cobra ballets at air shows!
 

Armand2REP

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Pointing nose at target to get tone for lock on. Also can allow for managing slow speed maneuvering under high loads.
If you are already going that slow to use it you are probably dead. It doesn't work well if you keep your speed up.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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If you are already going that slow to use it you are probably dead. It doesn't work well if you keep your speed up.
Why do you think that TVC is useless? In situations like evasive maneuvering and changing direction when a missile is fired, the TVC is very useful. Su30 MOI van very quickly change direction and doesn't have to do a full cyclic revolution to turn around. This means that when it spots a BVR ir SAM being fired from about 30km or more, it can suddenly turn tail and start fleeing
 

Snowcat

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Why do you think that TVC is useless? In situations like evasive maneuvering and changing direction when a missile is fired, the TVC is very useful. Su30 MOI van very quickly change direction and doesn't have to do a full cyclic revolution to turn around. This means that when it spots a BVR ir SAM being fired from about 30km or more, it can suddenly turn tail and start fleeing
I think a delta wing jet like Tejas or Rafale are much more capable in turning at Cruising speeds than Su 30, also they weigh quite a lot less than su30 , so it already gives them a edge.
 

Armand2REP

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Why do you think that TVC is useless? In situations like evasive maneuvering and changing direction when a missile is fired, the TVC is very useful. Su30 MOI van very quickly change direction and doesn't have to do a full cyclic revolution to turn around. This means that when it spots a BVR ir SAM being fired from about 30km or more, it can suddenly turn tail and start fleeing
At slow speed it is excellent at maneuvering on a dime, at higher speeds the aircraft reaction time to nozzle pitch becomes less effective. Just because you move the angle of thrust doesn't mean the forward momentum of a train will quickly respond.
 

Gessler

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http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28459

Nice set of discussions that sort of debunk this. All sources even the French ones claim, 1 kill for the F-22 and the rest draw. Getting the F-22 in the line of sight isn't a kill. The likely impact of bullets was never on the F-22 really.

As for WVR with Missiles, Rafale at that time didn't have a Helmet mouted cueing system, it would have been easy meat for the F-22 with Aim-9x and combined helmet cueing.
F-22 never had a HMD, not even today. At least the Indian/Qatari Rafale does.

Besides, the French Rafale does not really have a HOBS missile - the MICA doesn't maneuver as well as ASRAAM, Python-5, R-73 or AIM-9. The MICA was designed to have a common body between IR and RF seeker heads to save on logistics costs. Again IAF Rafale will get ASRAAM.

The 1 kill is disputed. But that aside, the 5 draws speak volumes. F-22 has TVC, IR signature is suppressed due to nozzle design, AESA radar to keep track of targets better, and so many other features - yet couldn't get a clear upper hand on Rafale. During that engagement, neither plane had HMD.
 
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