Know Your 'Rafale'

[Gessler]

Then what happened in case of Brahmos on Su30,

We got no help from russian.
Dude we have full rights on Su30 like we have on bmp2

You do realize BrahMos Aerospace is 49.5% Russian owned?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

3 are of same Abrahamic faith.

So you think Americans will give access to Russians because Russia is also a Christian country now

Islam did not derive from it. Christianity on the other hand was a split from Judaism when Jesus was killed by jewish rabbi. Many jews were enraged and split. Also, there is Jerusalem which is held by Israel which makes it very precious for European and American countries.

Russia was atheist country and outright denounced religion as it was part of communism. Hence the rivalry with other western and islamic countries

So you admit it's about political alignment and not religious alignment. You just contradicted your own argument

Idiot, first understand what I am saying. Japan, Korea etc are USA controlled. They are not Separate from USA and hence are extension of USA itself. They are dominion of USA. So, all Technology with these so called countries are actually under USA supervision. So, there is no real TOT.

except Turkey who was somehow able to integrate SOM-J on F-35. Please explain that to me.

SOM doesn't have deep integration with Radar. It is only given some targeting ability. The F35 rafmdar is out of reach for Turkey.

That's why they manage to make ~250 Gripens and sold to 6 countries while we struggling to sell to our own Air Force

They managed to sell at extreme conditions like giving heavy offset investment, loans etc. That is not a good way of selling

Why don't you close your mouth and talk after Tejas Mk-2 makes some meaningful progress instead of telling everyone we don't need to buy Rafale anymore because the guys at ADA made a computer-generated im

Moron, I am saying that India has Su30 and hence Rafale is not needed. I am only saying that future outlook also must include

Yes they can - however they face repercussions if such transfer is not approved prior by USG. That's how Pratt & Whitney (owned by parent company United Technologies) sold software & tools to China despite ban:

Nonsense. Technology transfer to China was on low key basis and not without knowledge of USG.

IP is held by company, not government.

IP is held by company but under USG's overwatch. In other words, the IP is more or less owned by USG itself but indirectly. Most of defence items are funded by USD via DARPA or other programs. Hence the output are also under USG. Moreover, if a company like GE refuses to supply engines to USA during war, USA can take the company under control and get the Technology to some other company or even run the company as a government firm.

 

[Gessler]

Islam did not derive from it. Christianity on the other hand was a split from Judaism when Jesus was killed by jewish rabbi. Many jews were enraged and split. Also, there is Jerusalem which is held by Israel which makes it very precious for European and American countries.

The god of Abraham is the same one worshiped by all 3 Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Btw, trust you turn this into a religious debate.

Russia was atheist country and outright denounced religion as it was part of communism. Hence the rivalry with other western and islamic countries

Russia isn't communist anymore, neither are Eastern European ex-Soviet states. They are Orthodox Christian.

Idiot, first understand what I am saying. Japan, Korea etc are USA controlled. They are not Separate from USA and hence are extension of USA itself. They are dominion of USA. So, all Technology with these so called countries are actually under USA supervision. So, there is no real TOT.

Lol - so you retract original bogus statements about Christian countries and now rely on US ability to monitor and uphold agreements & oversee flow of technology so it doesn't go into hands of enemy countries as the prime factor that governs who gets access to tech and who does not.

Thanks for accepting my argument.

SOM doesn't have deep integration with Radar. It is only given some targeting ability. The F35 rafmdar is out of reach for Turkey.

GOKTUG BVR missile - Turkish-developed missile for their F-16s. FYI, F-16 has American radar.

First it was "they won't share anything with Turkey". Then when I showed you SOM-J, it became "they only share some things with Turkey"
Go ahead, change arguments again.

They managed to sell at extreme conditions like giving heavy offset investment, loans etc. That is not a good way of selling

What loan did they give Brazil?

It's quite disturbing how you totally refuse to accept merit in a certain product because it doesn't suit your arguments. Disgusting. Gripen is a light, capable plane with first-rate equipment & weapons and operating costs are lower than F-16. That's why it manages to sell.

Moron, I am saying that India has Su30 and hence Rafale is not needed. I am only saying that future outlook also must include

First you tell GE how to build engines. Then you tell IAF how & what planes to buy.

You are a jingo & joker of the highest order.

CAS calls Rafale a game-changer while you call it unnecessary. Or you think you know more about Su-30 capabilities than the IAF pilots that fly them do?

Nonsense. Technology transfer to China was on low key basis and not without knowledge of USG.

Lol - for what they did, UTC/P&W had to plead guilty in court and paid $75 million fine.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unit...ty-criminal-charges-helping-china-develop-new

Prior knowledge of USG my foot.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The god of Abraham is the same one worshiped by all 3 Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Btw, trust you turn this into a religious debate.



Russia isn't communist anymore, neither are Eastern European ex-Soviet states. They are Orthodox Christian.



Lol - so you retract original bogus statements about Christian countries and now rely on US ability to monitor and uphold agreements & oversee flow of technology so it doesn't go into hands of enemy countries as the prime factor that governs who gets access to tech and who does not.

Thanks for accepting my argument.



GOKTUG BVR missile - Turkish-developed missile for their F-16s. FYI, F-16 has American radar.

First it was "they won't share anything with Turkey". Then when I showed you SOM-J, it became "they only share some things with Turkey"
Go ahead, change arguments again.



What loan did they give Brazil?

It's quite disturbing how you totally refuse to accept merit in a certain product because it doesn't suit your arguments. Disgusting. Gripen is a light, capable plane with first-rate equipment & weapons and operating costs are lower than F-16. That's why it manages to sell.



First you tell GE how to build engines. Then you tell IAF how & what planes to buy.

You are a jingo & joker of the highest order.

CAS calls Rafale a game-changer while you call it unnecessary. Or you think you know more about Su-30 capabilities than the IAF pilots that fly them do?



Lol - for what they did, UTC/P&W had to plead guilty in court and paid $75 million fine.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unit...ty-criminal-charges-helping-china-develop-new

Prior knowledge of USG my foot.

I can't continually talk sense into you when you simply refuse to have result based conversation.

Firstly, USA giving Technology to JAPAN is not giving at all as Japan is an extension of USA. Where are you refuting me? Do you have mental problems to not understand that Japan defence is in USG control? So, what is technology transfer at all? From right to left hand?

You degenerate fool, F16 missile has IIR seeker and is hopelessly bad. So much foyr yourintegration. Even god can't save you if you continually talk nonsense

Now, about p&w helping china is not same as giving Technological assistance in blueprint. There can always be some leak. But that is not same as selling Technology.

Now,about RAFALE, stop hiding behind the irritating dialogue 'IAF selected it'. If it is all about IAF doing whatever they want, why are you talking about this subject? You have to shut up and do some other work according to this logic

 

[Armand2REP]

Then what happened in case of Brahmos on Su30,

We got no help from russian.
Dude we have full rights on Su30 like we have on bmp2

Su-30 is a Russian aircraft, Brahmos is a 50/50 JV with Russia... getting approval for that is easy.

If you screw up the source code on a BMP 2 it isn't going to crash.

 

[Gessler]

I can't continually talk sense into you when you simply refuse to have result based conversation.

The biggest joke here is that you actually seem to think you are talking sense.

Firstly, USA giving Technology to JAPAN is not giving at all as Japan is an extension of USA. Where are you refuting me? Do you have mental problems to not understand that Japan defence is in USG control? So, what is technology transfer at all? From right to left hand?

How does US know and control where the technology goes, and how does it punish/reprimand those responsible if it goes somewhere it shouldn't?

That's right - via confidentiality agreements and contracts. Not because this is Christian state or because that is vassal state. Too bad you don't realize how world works.

You degenerate fool, F16 missile has IIR seeker and is hopelessly bad. So much foyr yourintegration. Even god can't save you if you continually talk nonsense

There are two versions of GOKTUG missile - BVR (with RF seeker) and WVR (with IR seeker). The image I posted is clearly of the radar-guided variant as one can tell easily by looking at the nose cone. Radar guided missile as in one requiring full integration with F-16 radar.

Photo I posted if of top/left one.

You can't even tell difference between radar-guided & IR-guided missile by looking at the photos and you're calling me a degenerate fool? That about sums up the dynamic in our argument.

Now, about p&w helping china is not same as giving Technological assistance in blueprint. There can always be some leak. But that is not same as selling Technology.

Firstly it is not a leak/stolen tech, it is EXPORT under unlawful violation of arms-control agreement. P&W knowingly and willfully SOLD the tech to China and accepted payment in return, and P&W accepted that much in court under oath.

That is not called a leak. A leak is something that happens without knowledge or approval of company involved.

And frankly USG doesn't care what is level & type of tech in question - it is violating ITAR agreement, that is the point which you are missing.

And if USG controls all tech as you erroneously believe, then how P&W manage to sell it without raising question by USG in first place?

Just take few steps back and take a look at how full of holes your arguments are.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

How does US know and control where the technology goes, and how does it punish/reprimand those responsible if it goes somewhere it shouldn't?

That's right - via confidentiality agreements and contracts. Not because this is Christian state or because that is vassal state. Too bad you don't realize how world works

The agreement is just paperwork and just remains on paper. So, stop talking of fictional or useless things.

Things are based solely on political ties and that in turn depends on culture, vassalage etc.

I am done with this topic. Don't irritate me unless you have proper evidence to s itay otherwise

You can't even tell difference between radar-guided & IR-guided missile by looking at the photos and you're calling me a degenerate fool? That about sums up the dynamic in our

I can tell the difference. Problem here ia that Turkey's IIR one is complete but radar one is developing. So, don't jump the gun. Also, how sure are you about integration? Did turkey live fire it? Just like USA doesn't allow pakistan to integrate any other missile, it may not allow Turkey too

 

[Gessler]

The agreement is just paperwork and just remains on paper. So, stop talking of fictional or useless things.

Things are based solely on political ties and that in turn depends on culture, vassalage etc.

I am done with this topic. Don't irritate me unless you have proper evidence to s itay otherwise

Yea right....if someone from JASDF/Japanese MoD takes part in unlawfully selling the codes given by US to some third party (China, Russia), what do you think the prosecutors will find him guilty for?

" You have wronged America to which our Kingdom owes vassalage toward so we are sentencing you to this & this"

OR

" What you did is in violation of X confidentiality agreement, thereby you are sentenced to this & this"

Not only procurements, you also seem to hold no clue as to how justice system or law works. What era do you think we are living in? 12th century?

Culture and Vassalage

I can tell the difference. Problem here ia that Turkey's IIR one is complete but radar one is developing. So, don't jump the gun. Also, how sure are you about integration? Did turkey live fire it? Just like USA doesn't allow pakistan to integrate any other missile, it may not allow Turkey too

Just bugger off with your nonsense. Your argument has been soundly defeated. And now trying to cover up your inability to distinguish a IR missile from an RF missile.

As of GOKTUG missiles, yes they are integrated & flying on Turkish F-16:

Just in case you fail to identify which is which again: the one on wingtip (above) is the BVR one with radar guidance and the one on underwing hardpoint (below) is the IR guided one.

The image is very recent (Feb 2019) as the missile is new and still undergoing testing...however it proves beyond a doubt that Turks (who are Muslims, btw, as that seems important to you) are able to get codes from US for integrating their missiles with F-16's American radar. And neither are they stupid to waste money testing missiles on a plane they know they won't get the codes for.

 

[Immanuel]

People need to stop making fools of themselves.

To compare MKI engines to others is silly, it's the only operational aircraft in the world with all aspect thrust vectoring which allows it to perform ballet in the sky unlike any other. Thrust vectoring keeps it untouchable in super maneuverability including Rafale during past dogfights. Recent ACM with Pukis proved that having TVC was worth it.

Elta 2052 will go on the LCA mk-1A, this is confirmed, I know several people working on this integration and T/R module count is well over 800. Uttam is essentially a test project, it will at best evolve into GaN version in 5 years and will probably be fitted on later during MLU.

F414 will power all LCA mk-2 and AMCA, there are over 6 engines already delivered to HAL. AMCA will feature the EPE version. It is hands down the most reliable fighter engine ever made. Till Kaveri proves years of flight testing on several LSPs, it will not go anywhere near operational aircraft. IAF, PMO, HAL all want to keep LCA's stellar safety on track. This is also confirmed. At best K9+ engine will go on the LCA mk-1, 1A during MLU. K-10 is still on the drawing board and is meant to be an evolution of the K9+, again several years away from prototyping.

 

[Armand2REP]

To compare MKI engines to others is silly, it's the only operational aircraft in the world with all aspect thrust vectoring which allows it to perform ballet in the sky unlike any other. Thrust vectoring keeps it untouchable in super maneuverability including Rafale during past dogfights. Recent ACM with Pukis proved that having TVC was worth it.

Do you think a missile that can pull 40Gs cares about a TVC that is limited by its pilot? The only thing the recent ACM with Pukis proved that a MiG-21 in the right hands can swat an F-16 because it has a missile that can pull 40Gs.

 

[Gessler]

To compare MKI engines to others is silly, it's the only operational aircraft in the world with all aspect thrust vectoring

MKI, MKM and Su-35 as well. But in terms of actual combat, the MKI is particularly vulnerable among these three. Explained below.

which allows it to perform ballet in the sky unlike any other. Thrust vectoring keeps it untouchable in super maneuverability including Rafale during past dogfights. Recent ACM with Pukis proved that having TVC was worth it.

Many of the maneuvers displayed by the Flankers in air shows are absolutely stunning and few if any aircraft can replicate those. But many of those maneuvers have little to no utility in instances of aerial combat.

The higher the speed of the plane when it's engaging in combat, the less useful TVC becomes. Infact the greatest effect of TVC is felt at speeds that would be too slow to ensure enough energy is on hand in case it's required in a combat engagement where the need to break off & egress successfully at a moment's notice is always high.

The Rafale has shown a remarkable ability to keep up with F-22s in close range ACMs during exercises. The F-22 is equipped with 2D TVC - which, mind you, is a far more efficient form of TVC when talking about the particular aircraft in question (Raptor), owing to it's engine exhausts being closely packed and unlike the Flankers, not being canted.

As a result of which the Raptor bleeds considerably less energy compared to the Su-30/35 in any maneuver where TVC is employed. And Rafale has shown fairly decent performance against the Raptor in close combat maneuvering and keeping the latter in sights at all times.

With that out of the way, I would however venture to say that if a Rafale in it's present French Air Force configuration were to engage a Su-30MKI in close combat, I would put my money on the MKI's ability to kill said Rafale. Not because of TVC or the MKI's maneuverability, but because of the French Rafale's lack of a HMD to cue a HOBS missile, a point which the MKI with its Sura HMD+R73E combo can exploit to a dangerous degree.

This advantage however, disappears when the Rafale in question is belonging to the Indian or Qatari configuration, which brings the highly regarded Israeli TARGO HMD into the mix. I would venture to say that chances are high IAF Rafales would be equipped with ASRAAM missiles in future, in line with IAF's reported intention to standardize that particular CCM across as many platforms as possible. The MKI is frankly in serious trouble against such a configuration.

The MKI's inability to keep up with this equation is further compounded by the fact that it lacks both a Missile-Warning System as well as an internal Self-Protection Jammer, leaving it extremely vulnerable and unable to defend against attacks from both IR-guided and radar-guided weapons. I'll make the point to note that not all MKIs, and in not all missions, will be equipped with an externally carried SPJ.

These are gaps in the MKI's overall combat survivability in it's present configuration, gaps which will not be filled until and unless the much-awaited Super-MKI upgrade program happens. However there is little to no information at the moment regarding any timeline for said upgrade.

The MKI, despite their impressive maneuverability, cannot really emerge victorious from modern air combat encounters solely on that merit.

Returning to my point about the IAF's MKI being particularly vulnerable, even among the other Flankers equipped with 3D TVC, it is a point to note that both the Malaysian MKM and the Su-35 do indeed have a passive Missile-warning suite, which only the MKI lacks.

Agreed with the rest of your post regarding the relevant radars & engines concerning the LCA/MWF programs.

 

[neeraj_]

The god of Abraham is the same one worshiped by all 3 Abrahamic religions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Btw, trust you turn this into a religious debate.



Russia isn't communist anymore, neither are Eastern European ex-Soviet states. They are Orthodox Christian.



Lol - so you retract original bogus statements about Christian countries and now rely on US ability to monitor and uphold agreements & oversee flow of technology so it doesn't go into hands of enemy countries as the prime factor that governs who gets access to tech and who does not.

Thanks for accepting my argument.



GOKTUG BVR missile - Turkish-developed missile for their F-16s. FYI, F-16 has American radar.

First it was "they won't share anything with Turkey". Then when I showed you SOM-J, it became "they only share some things with Turkey"
Go ahead, change arguments again.



What loan did they give Brazil?

It's quite disturbing how you totally refuse to accept merit in a certain product because it doesn't suit your arguments. Disgusting. Gripen is a light, capable plane with first-rate equipment & weapons and operating costs are lower than F-16. That's why it manages to sell.



First you tell GE how to build engines. Then you tell IAF how & what planes to buy.

You are a jingo & joker of the highest order.

CAS calls Rafale a game-changer while you call it unnecessary. Or you think you know more about Su-30 capabilities than the IAF pilots that fly them do?



Lol - for what they did, UTC/P&W had to plead guilty in court and paid $75 million fine.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unit...ty-criminal-charges-helping-china-develop-new

Prior knowledge of USG my foot.

The God in Bible or Torah is Yehua. While of Islam is Allah.

Xtian or Jews do not consider Islam as Abrahmic instead they think of it as mental asylum. ,

 

[Gessler]

The God in Bible or Torah is Yehua. While of Islam is Allah.

Xtian or Jews do not consider Islam as Abrahmic instead they think of it as mental asylum. ,

And Islamists think of everyone else as kaffirs. Neither is relevant to the discussion anymore.

Nor does it determine who the US decides to share radar integration codes with.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Yea right....if someone from JASDF/Japanese MoD takes part in unlawfully selling the codes given by US to some third party (China, Russia), what do you think the prosecutors will find him guilty for?

" You have wronged America to which our Kingdom owes vassalage toward so we are sentencing you to this & this"

OR

" What you did is in violation of X confidentiality agreement, thereby you are sentenced to this & this"

Not only procurements, you also seem to hold no clue as to how justice system or law works. What era do you think we are living in? 12th century?

The Technology integration part is handled directly by USA engineers without giving control to Japan. Everything 8a not based on punishment as many engineers will get free and fully protected asylum if they give away the secrets. So, the defectors can never be punished at all.

How do you think S.Korea, Taiwan etc uave advanced semiconductor technology? Cqn you tell me where & when they started to develop semiconductor? This technology is also given by USA under vassalage. The semiconductor technology of Malaysia is also given by USA. There are several methods to keep the Technology from leaking. This is mainly through inspection and keeping a batch of USA agents posted to guard the Technology.

Elta 2052 will go on the LCA mk-1A, this is confirmed, I know several people working on this integration and T/R module count is well over 800. Uttam is essentially a test project, it will at best evolve into GaN version in 5 years and will probably be fitted on later during MLU.

ELTA is not confirmed. Only RFI has been issued and it has been selected as L1.

 

[neeraj_]

And Islamists think of everyone else as kaffirs. Neither is relevant to the discussion anymore.

Nor does it determine who the US decides to share radar integration codes with.

Relevance is in knowing the facts straight up.

The God of Torah/Bible is different from God Allah of islam.
Period

Even the christians call other as heathens /pagans that wasn't the point you or I made .

 

[Gessler]

Relevance is in knowing the facts straight up.

The God of Torah/Bible is different from God Allah of islam.
Period

Even the christians call other as heathens /pagans that wasn't the point you or I made .

Take your facts to the Pope.

"
In 1965, Pope Paul VI and the world’s Catholic bishops at the Second Vatican Council approved Nostra Aetate, the declaration on relations with non-Christian religions. The decree’s denunciation of calumny against Jews gets most of the attention, but it also proclaimed this:

“The church also regards with esteem the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” although “they do not acknowledge Jesus as God” and regard him as only a prophet. The subsequent Catechism of the Catholic Church likewise defines the belief that “together with us [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” "

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/reli...s-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god?format=amp

The history of religion is the history of varying interpretations and assertions, often times designed by the powers that be so as to push certain narratives given the geopolitical realities of a given time period.

I have neither the intention nor the interest to carry a discussion regarding this forward, certainly not in this thread. However, the aspect that the God believed in by Christians, Jews and Muslims ("People of the Book") is one and the same is a widely held interpretation, seemingly approved by the Catholic Church as evident from statements of Pope John Paul.

Is that assertion correct? Who knows and who cares, certainly not me. I do not believe in any God whether Abrahamic or Dharmic.

"knowing the facts straight up" as you say as per the interpretation you seem to be following, would be implying that between Christians and Muslims, only one of the two are worshipping the actual God of Abraham and the other is a false faith. Because all Books of these faiths imply there is only one God.

So which God is it? You and @Advaidhya Tiwari may carry this particular discussion forward if you wish as you seem to be the parties interested in said discussion.

The Technology integration part is handled directly by USA engineers without giving control to Japan. Everything 8a not based on punishment as many engineers will get free and fully protected asylum if they give away the secrets. So, the defectors can never be punished at all.

How do you think S.Korea, Taiwan etc uave advanced semiconductor technology? Cqn you tell me where & when they started to develop semiconductor? This technology is also given by USA under vassalage. The semiconductor technology of Malaysia is also given by USA. There are several methods to keep the Technology from leaking. This is mainly through inspection and keeping a batch of USA agents posted to guard the Technology.

So you're implying that given the height of tensions between Turkey and US right now, which are going to the level of suspending F35 deliveries, there are American engineers in Turkey assisting them integrate Goktug BVR on F16?

 

[Immanuel]

Do you think a missile that can pull 40Gs cares about a TVC that is limited by its pilot? The only thing the recent ACM with Pukis proved that a MiG-21 in the right hands can swat an F-16 because it has a missile that can pull 40Gs.

Didn't stop the MkI from running circles around the Rafale in exchanges. The Aims launched at 70-80% max launch range allowed the MKI to shoot vertical to high altitude and then a tail slide to an inverse dive, the Aims lost energy due to such a manuever.

 

[Immanuel]

MKI, MKM and Su-35 as well. But in terms of actual combat, the MKI is particularly vulnerable among these three. Explained below.



Many of the maneuvers displayed by the Flankers in air shows are absolutely stunning and few if any aircraft can replicate those. But many of those maneuvers have little to no utility in instances of aerial combat.

The higher the speed of the plane when it's engaging in combat, the less useful TVC becomes. Infact the greatest effect of TVC is felt at speeds that would be too slow to ensure enough energy is on hand in case it's required in a combat engagement where the need to break off & egress successfully at a moment's notice is always high.

The Rafale has shown a remarkable ability to keep up with F-22s in close range ACMs during exercises. The F-22 is equipped with 2D TVC - which, mind you, is a far more efficient form of TVC when talking about the particular aircraft in question (Raptor), owing to it's engine exhausts being closely packed and unlike the Flankers, not being canted.

As a result of which the Raptor bleeds considerably less energy compared to the Su-30/35 in any maneuver where TVC is employed. And Rafale has shown fairly decent performance against the Raptor in close combat maneuvering and keeping the latter in sights at all times.

With that out of the way, I would however venture to say that if a Rafale in it's present French Air Force configuration were to engage a Su-30MKI in close combat, I would put my money on the MKI's ability to kill said Rafale. Not because of TVC or the MKI's maneuverability, but because of the French Rafale's lack of a HMD to cue a HOBS missile, a point which the MKI with its Sura HMD+R73E combo can exploit to a dangerous degree.

This advantage however, disappears when the Rafale in question is belonging to the Indian or Qatari configuration, which brings the highly regarded Israeli TARGO HMD into the mix. I would venture to say that chances are high IAF Rafales would be equipped with ASRAAM missiles in future, in line with IAF's reported intention to standardize that particular CCM across as many platforms as possible. The MKI is frankly in serious trouble against such a configuration.

The MKI's inability to keep up with this equation is further compounded by the fact that it lacks both a Missile-Warning System as well as an internal Self-Protection Jammer, leaving it extremely vulnerable and unable to defend against attacks from both IR-guided and radar-guided weapons. I'll make the point to note that not all MKIs, and in not all missions, will be equipped with an externally carried SPJ.

These are gaps in the MKI's overall combat survivability in it's present configuration, gaps which will not be filled until and unless the much-awaited Super-MKI upgrade program happens. However there is little to no information at the moment regarding any timeline for said upgrade.

The MKI, despite their impressive maneuverability, cannot really emerge victorious from modern air combat encounters solely on that merit.

Returning to my point about the IAF's MKI being particularly vulnerable, even among the other Flankers equipped with 3D TVC, it is a point to note that both the Malaysian MKM and the Su-35 do indeed have a passive Missile-warning suite, which only the MKI lacks.

Agreed with the rest of your post regarding the relevant radars & engines concerning the LCA/MWF programs.

Please to claim Rafale vs F-22 had some sort of significant achievement is a joke. By that equation hell an F-4 can own the Rafale just like MkI said.

TVC allows MKI to completely change vectors with ease, speed is not necessarily the most important things while dodging missiles.

An MKI upgrade will fix many things

 

[Gessler]

Please to claim Rafale vs F-22 had some sort of significant achievement is a joke. By that equation hell an F-4 can own the Rafale just like MkI said.

TVC allows MKI to completely change vectors with ease, speed is not necessarily the most important things while dodging missiles.

In close combat in the modern age, no matter how super-maneuverable you are, you can't outmaneuver a HOBS missile cued by HMD with any respectable margin of success. Just not possible. Reason why newer generations of planes decide in favour of enhacing BVR performance as much as possible even at the cost of reducing close combat capabilities.

And at BVR combat, the things that matter most are:

1) Radar + IRST = Acquiring target. AESA vs PESA (even though it's a big PESA), the AESA has advantage. Rafale IRST is more advanced and distinguishes target radiation better.

2) BVR weapons = Eliminating target. Meteor vs R77/R27...there really is a competition here?

3) Jammer + MAWS = Defending against attack. MKI has neither. (save for instances where external SPJ is carried, still doesn't solve MAWS problem).

4) Low RCS = Not being acquired by enemy. Again no real competition at all. Rafale is a marble compared to MKI's football.

An MKI upgrade will fix many things

An upgrade no one knows when will happen.

 

[Armand2REP]

Didn't stop the MkI from running circles around the Rafale in exchanges.

Lt. Col. Lyautey had the opportunity to fly MKI and perform two DACTs against it during Garuda V, he says... the Rafale has a larger range of speed where it is more manoeuvrable than the Su-30." Only having advantage at low speed is no advantage at all as any fighter pilot who has lost his speed is already dead.

The Aims launched at 70-80% max launch range allowed the MKI to shoot vertical to high altitude and then a tail slide to an inverse dive, the Aims lost energy due to such a manuever.

I heard the AIMs fell out of the sky because they were jammed by M2Ks, I guess we will never know. What we do know is that IAF is saying the day would have turned very differently if Rafale was in the sky.