Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

Sometimes it’s not really about having the latest gizmos and whiz it’s just about getting the weapons to reliably work and in the way you want to and they have invested years of tinkering and training to get it right and they don’t want to start the process all over again just for incremental gain that really doesn’t justify the efforts and time put in to master the latest gizmos and techs.

Bro in this thread you need to admit that kahanis are more reliable than literature. No point arguing with some if I bring a successful operation they claim it’s either fake or done 10 years ago, like the army just drastically changed in ten years, while simultaneously citing boooks of western militaries

 

[jai jaganath]

Well if he’s complaining about the weak character of the IA and such that’s basically a personal attack. He hasn’t walked the walk yet. Wait until he joins the IA and then after he has completed his tour of duty he can complain all he wants.

His comments about officers leading in the front and that western militaries don’t practice it and makes fun of them for not doing that shows his lack of basic understanding of how western militaries practice leadership philosophy and minimum casualties and maximum command and guidance without getting into fog of war issues. He should have known that in western militaries it’s the NCOs that provide leadership not the officers. Officers sit in the rear and give commands based on their overall god eye view of the battle situation and it’s up to the NCOs on the grounds and in front to provide leadership and execute commands. Soldiers listen to and follow the NCOs. NCOs are the nuts and bolts of platoons and companies. Officers provide guidance and show leadership based on NCOs feedback.

In militaries where its officer led soldiers follow their officers but the problem is that when officers become incapacitated NCOs sometimes can’t pick up the slack and they become rudderless. In a NCO led military unit that doesn’t happen because there are redundancies built in.

IA is in the middle of trying a hybrid approach due to its legacy and built up traditions. IA is trying to figure out how to cope with a rapidly changing environment where you need to make quick decisions and develop a free of fog of war issues battle situation awareness and how to communicate orders and relay critical info to decision makers quickly as to keep the OODA (decision making process) loop intact and keep the enemy from getting a kill chain upon themselves.

Having the latest gizmos and flashy guns are not what makes a military a leaning fighting force. It’s doctrinal evolution, training, improving logistics, the nuts and bolts thing. Amateurs thinks tactics and weapons. Professionals think logistics and doctrinal training and operational planning and people management.

And lastly, there’s constructive criticism and there’s unwarranted criticism and he falls into that latter category.

Ahh if u would have gone through the previous pages literally every member has written about nco leading in West
Again pls guys want to discuss infantry, u have a thread for it
Many people get confused what's being discussed here sf or infantry

 

[Kumaoni]

sf or infantry

What’s the difference in India?

 

[jai jaganath]

What’s the difference in India?

Doesn't matter if there is difference or not but in actual and practical world difference exists
So let us maintain that in this forum

 

[Blademaster]

Bro in this thread you need to admit that kahanis are more reliable than literature. No point arguing with some if I bring a successful operation they claim it’s either fake or done 10 years ago, like the army just drastically changed in ten years, while simultaneously citing boooks of western militaries

Ha ha. You have not experienced the real world yet. Wait until you do and then you will understand that some organizations are loathed to adopting new technologies en masse unless tangible benefits can be made apparent. They have their own structures to deal with. You can’t just waltz in and upend everything and then expect everything to work perfectly. It takes time for technology to filter through and for the people on the ground to master those new technologies and make them work or adapt them to their quirky situations. They will only make that investment if they can see that the new technologies will bring tangible concrete effects.

 

[Kumaoni]

Ha ha. You have not experienced the real world yet. Wait until you do and then you will understand that some organizations are loathed to adopting new technologies en masse unless tangible benefits can be made apparent. They have their own structures to deal with. You can’t just waltz in and upend everything and then expect everything to work perfectly. It takes time for technology to filter through and for the people on the ground to master those new technologies and make them work or adapt them to their quirky situations. They will only make that investment if they can see that the new technologies will bring tangible concrete effects.

You should leave this thread. Most people here are rigid in their views and very one dimensional in their beliefs. They think in two extremes and don’t acknowledge realities. Myself included

 

[Blademaster]

You should leave this thread. Most people here are rigid in their views and very one dimensional in their beliefs. They think in two extremes and don’t acknowledge realities. Myself included

Ha ha ha. And you guys complain that I live in an echo chamber.

 

[kaboom]

Ha ha. You have not experienced the real world yet. Wait until you do and then you will understand that some organizations are loathed to adopting new technologies en masse unless tangible benefits can be made apparent. They have their own structures to deal with. You can’t just waltz in and upend everything and then expect everything to work perfectly. It takes time for technology to filter through and for the people on the ground to master those new technologies and make them work or adapt them to their quirky situations. They will only make that investment if they can see that the new technologies will bring tangible concrete effects.

Bro, I agree with you on a lot of points but you can't just wait for technology to filter through .For Example , The huge advantage that powered optics and good night vision gives you was proved in Operation Iraqi freedom back in 2004 but I can see only a handful of them in use on the ground by SF who are meant to be our spear head. How many more years do we have to wait for it to filter.
To be honest its not a filter but a wall which we have not been able to breach till now and maybe a defeat in a direct armed conflict will do it.

 

[Blademaster]

Bro, I agree with you on a lot of points but you can't just wait for technology to filter through .For Example , The huge advantage that powered optics and good night vision gives you was proved in Operation Iraqi freedom back in 2004 but I can see only a handful of them in use on the ground by SF who are meant to be our spear head. How many more years do we have to wait for it to filter.
To be honest its not a filter but a wall which we have not been able to breach till now and maybe a defeat in a direct armed conflict will do it.

Those things are nice to have. But what happens if you don’t have a logistic chain capable of supporting and servicing that gizmo you referenced? It becomes a brick and useless in the field. You need greater budgets to deal with those gizmos. Have you ever met a quartermaster? Talk to him/her and you will understand the implications of adopting new technologies and the limitations of large organizations on adopting new technologies willy nilly.

 

[kaboom]

Those things are nice to have. But what happens if you don’t have a logistic chain capable of supporting and servicing that gizmo you referenced? It becomes a brick and useless in the field. You need greater budgets to deal with those gizmos. Have you ever met a quartermaster? Talk to him/her and you will understand the implications of adopting new technologies and the limitations of large organizations on adopting new technologies willy nilly.

First Acogs/ any good optics rarely require servicing and to be honest if we can maintain and operate legacy soviet systems we surely can these too as well.
Also when we adopt a new tech its quiet obvious that we need to form a logistic chain for it .

Moreover if the quartermaster is happy to work with this shit I would surely doubt him as well.
(I respect all the men in boots but its wrong to justify something which is clearly not)

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

View attachment 213787

Chill maro bhai log

In the end this is the truth they don't give a f we should stop getting worked up over it now

 

[Suryavanshi]

Is dog van some technical term or it is literally dog ambulance.

 

[armyofhind]

Those things are nice to have. But what happens if you don’t have a logistic chain capable of supporting and servicing that gizmo you referenced? It becomes a brick and useless in the field. You need greater budgets to deal with those gizmos. Have you ever met a quartermaster? Talk to him/her and you will understand the implications of adopting new technologies and the limitations of large organizations on adopting new technologies willy nilly.

Logistical chain, while being a valid concern, does not apply to what Indian SF, and Para SF largely, is being criticised for.

The logistical chain required to equip every SF soldier with a good plate carrier, and AT THE VERY LEAST, a Gen-3 BiNOD already exists. (Tonbo, TASL, Armasen, MKU etc).

I'm not even getting into the other sundry gear, that should ideally be the basic standard for a special forces trooper.

It's either a lack of vision, vested interests in procuring foreign gear (read kickbacks), or just plain criminal negligence on part of the senior leadership. Or possibly a combination of all three factors.

The criticism is not for the troops in the line of fire.. they are doing the assigned job to the best of their ability. The criticism is for the senior officers.

And no, they are not doing enough. Countries with a far lesser military budget, and economic prowess, have equipped their SF troops to a far greater standard than ours.

Few cases in point - Kopassus, Paskal, GROM, Formoza, Light Reaction Regiment (This is Tier-1 BTW)

It reflects really poorly on the Indian Military Establishment when a country like the Phillipines can raise a Tier-1 unit and we probably don't even know the concept in strategic, decision-making military circles.

And it's not like we lack resources as a country or even that there is a lack of applicable conflict zones where the capability of such an Indian unit cannot be utilised. We have ample conflict in our border areas ,and will start having more overseas as well as the stature of the country grows internationally.

It's the lack of a dedicated thought process, vision and doctrine that is debilitating.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Well if he’s complaining about the weak character of the IA and such that’s basically a personal attack. He hasn’t walked the walk yet. Wait until he joins the IA and then after he has completed his tour of duty he can complain all he wants.

His comments about officers leading in the front and that western militaries don’t practice it and makes fun of them for not doing that shows his lack of basic understanding of how western militaries practice leadership philosophy and minimum casualties and maximum command and guidance without getting into fog of war issues. He should have known that in western militaries it’s the NCOs that provide leadership not the officers. Officers sit in the rear and give commands based on their overall god eye view of the battle situation and it’s up to the NCOs on the grounds and in front to provide leadership and execute commands. Soldiers listen to and follow the NCOs. NCOs are the nuts and bolts of platoons and companies. Officers provide guidance and show leadership based on NCOs feedback.

In militaries where its officer led soldiers follow their officers but the problem is that when officers become incapacitated NCOs sometimes can’t pick up the slack and they become rudderless. In a NCO led military unit that doesn’t happen because there are redundancies built in.

IA is in the middle of trying a hybrid approach due to its legacy and built up traditions. IA is trying to figure out how to cope with a rapidly changing environment where you need to make quick decisions and develop a free of fog of war issues battle situation awareness and how to communicate orders and relay critical info to decision makers quickly as to keep the OODA (decision making process) loop intact and keep the enemy from getting a kill chain upon themselves.

Having the latest gizmos and flashy guns are not what makes a military a leaning fighting force. It’s doctrinal evolution, training, improving logistics, the nuts and bolts thing. Amateurs thinks tactics and weapons. Professionals think logistics and doctrinal training and operational planning and people management.

And lastly, there’s constructive criticism and there’s unwarranted criticism and he falls into that latter category.

Logistics? funny coming from an Army that has adopted 3 different types of weapons with three different calibres for their standard issue.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Pachrangi Marcos...Uniform main uniformity hi nahi..

 

[Aspirant847]

Well if he’s complaining about the weak character of the IA and such that’s basically a personal attack. He hasn’t walked the walk yet. Wait until he joins the IA and then after he has completed his tour of duty he can complain all he wants.

His comments about officers leading in the front and that western militaries don’t practice it and makes fun of them for not doing that shows his lack of basic understanding of how western militaries practice leadership philosophy and minimum casualties and maximum command and guidance without getting into fog of war issues. He should have known that in western militaries it’s the NCOs that provide leadership not the officers. Officers sit in the rear and give commands based on their overall god eye view of the battle situation and it’s up to the NCOs on the grounds and in front to provide leadership and execute commands. Soldiers listen to and follow the NCOs. NCOs are the nuts and bolts of platoons and companies. Officers provide guidance and show leadership based on NCOs feedback.

In militaries where its officer led soldiers follow their officers but the problem is that when officers become incapacitated NCOs sometimes can’t pick up the slack and they become rudderless. In a NCO led military unit that doesn’t happen because there are redundancies built in.

IA is in the middle of trying a hybrid approach due to its legacy and built up traditions. IA is trying to figure out how to cope with a rapidly changing environment where you need to make quick decisions and develop a free of fog of war issues battle situation awareness and how to communicate orders and relay critical info to decision makers quickly as to keep the OODA (decision making process) loop intact and keep the enemy from getting a kill chain upon themselves.

Having the latest gizmos and flashy guns are not what makes a military a leaning fighting force. It’s doctrinal evolution, training, improving logistics, the nuts and bolts thing. Amateurs thinks tactics and weapons. Professionals think logistics and doctrinal training and operational planning and people management.

And lastly, there’s constructive criticism and there’s unwarranted criticism and he falls into that latter category.

aptly put

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Sometimes it’s not really about having the latest gizmos and whiz it’s just about getting the weapons to reliably work and in the way you want to and they have invested years of tinkering and training to get it right and they don’t want to start the process all over again just for incremental gain that really doesn’t justify the efforts and time put in to master the latest gizmos and techs.

Are we talking about the Indian Army here that uses multiples calibre of weapons and imports from multiples nations who could block this supply chain whenever they want or are we talking about someone like Russia who despite this chain is not doing so well and had to evolve its SF seperately to have some punch by importing western gear?

I am confused

 

[Blood+]

aptly put

No, not at all!! Not even close.

 

[Blademaster]

Are we talking about the Indian Army here that uses multiples calibre of weapons and imports from multiples nations who could block this supply chain whenever they want or are we talking about someone like Russia who despite this chain is not doing so well and had to evolve its SF seperately to have some punch by importing western gear?

I am confused

And the latest gizmos that you guys wanted are imported anyway. So how are you confused?